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"Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"
21

"Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

"Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

(OP)
I work for a large, publicly owned company. At a recent event for "young professionals", a speaker recommended that we "never spend mroe than 5-7 years in any job". The speaker was once an engineer, but has now moved "up" in the company through design, project management, etc to a full time management position.

Do you agree with his recommendation?
In our company, the average employee, for whatever reason, only spends 2-3 years in each position they take. From what I've seen, this has been leaving several engineering departments without experienced, knowledgeable staff. Additionally, there is the "expectation" that all engineers will move into management positions. The company has just created "engineering expert" positions to entice people to stay in design-type engineering roles, but the management stream still appears to be winning. Add to that the flux of retirees exiting the company, and it's easy to see why more and more work is going to consultants. (Personally I get nervous when I see someone outside the company design somethign, while we just maintain it, but thats another discussion.)

I'll admit that I'm young and therefore perhaps naive/foolish, but I look forward to spending as many years as it takes to become an expert in my field. If I get bored I may move, but I do not wish to move just to sample various areas of engineering. I've also had my taste of management and find it too stressful for my liking. There will be others for whom it is a perfect fit, but for others...I think they are being pushed into a role because of said "get out after 5-7 years!" rule.


Comments? Is anyone else (company-wise or personally) experiencing the same thing?

(Lastly, please forgive me if this has been posted/discussed before)

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

5
As a young engineering, it is necessary to move around a bit more often than most would like.

1) It allows for a broader experience base to see how other companies operate and to keep yourself educated on the vast disciplines that are "engineering".

2) You can get more of a raise by changing companies than you can with an annual cost-of-living increase.  If you really want to be able to repay all those high-priced student loans, you have to move around to get your salary up.

I'm now in my low 30s.  I spent 2.5 years at my first company out of school, 1 year at my second (was a mistake to take that job, but I stuck it out for 366 days), 6 years at my third.  I was actually hoping for 10 years at the third one, but stress and politics motivated me to move.  I'm now in my 4th position and the experiences I learned from each company before has put me into a great position.  The only thing I lack is the ability to become an "expert" at anything because right when I'm starting to feel like I know quite a bit about the specifics of the field, I leave.  I am a generalist and do very well at looking at the big picture - one of my forte's.  Hopefully I'll be at this company for over 10 years and maintain the big picture and become an expert in this niche field.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I agree with the person.  Well first being young in the Engineering field, it is a good idea to move around a bit to see what you like to do.  Changing jobs every 3 to 4 years will give you enough time to see if you like the work or not.  Second, after 5 years in the same company / job, your work becomes repetitive.  It is good to move around to keep your self refreshed on new technologies and methodologies of solving problems.  Even if you do the same job in a different company, you will still learn new tricks.

For me I jumped 3 times 5- 6 years each.  Oh also, every time you jump your salary goes up at lease 20% or more.  Due to the dot come era and the culture of companies that downsizing at a drop of the market price, it created a mentality of “watch out for your self”.  Loyalty has become a thing of the past.  

So I guess the point is always look forward to jobs that will help you rise in your career, because the company will not do that for you.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

A personal viewpoint and history...

Age 22.  About to be consumed by huge multi-national company and shoved into a niche until retirement (is how it felt).  Hated the idea of a life-long project.

Moved to a consulting company, mainly because of the huge diversity of work and ideas.  Loved it for a while.  Formed my own niche.  Started to hate it, particularly turning the same old wheel for yet another customer - might as well be a checkout guy at a supermarket.  Wanted something more long-term; something with my name on it and smell throughout it.

Age 30 (ish) Moved into the field I'm now in.  Long-term development (mine is software, but that's by the by).

The 5-7 year rule applied to me in the early stage of my career.  Switching every 5-7 years seems like a lot of work and upheaval.  But that's just me.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Mid (OK late) 30's - 5th company (3-7 dpending on how you view it), worker for big corps and small eng firms, learned a lot from all companies on what works and what does not. Just started what I hope to be my last company now that i have seen much and know what I want out of my career.

Remmember changing jobs does not necessarily mean changing companies but I believe a smart young engineer should make a few moves within his/her field to learn what you want to do and have a better understanding of the whole field. Do it while you are young, it gets harder later in life with more responsibilities (Mortage, wife, ex-wife, kids, etc..)

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

(OP)
Hi All, thanks for the responses so far. As always, they are somethign to think about

Just to add a bit more personal info to my side of the coin:
- I've had several summer jobs prior to graduating engineering. This allowed me to gain some experience in instrumentation, hvac, water and wastewater treatment, mechanical aspects of generatign stations. Of course none of this was detailed experience, but provided a good intro to mechanical engineering.
- Upon graduating,  I was hired by a company that does 6-months rotations in various engineering sections in teh company. As such, I've gained experience and been able to see/design aspects of power generation, mechanical systems, gas pipelines, etc and been involved in project management, contract negotiations, and other activities.
None of those activities made me an expert, but I've now got a boatload of books to learn/review from, soem design experience, and more than anything, a strong desire to "settle down and actually learn more than just a little bit of everything!"

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I agree for the young out of college. Spend at least a couple years and a few jobs before settling down for a career job.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

lookintomyeyes,

This is a very good point that I have been trying to make for several years.

If the pinnacle of ones career as an engineer is management, then why did we not just do a management degree and skip the poor pay in the interum!

There is too little respect for engineering expertise.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I don't know, if you're happy where you are (considering all factors), why move?\

The grass isn't greener.

However obviously if you want to experience something different etc then go for it.

I did about 5 at my first place, then moved to the states and have been here over 2.

Wish I was still at my first place some dayssmile

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I am 34 and on my 7th job since 94.  I rarely last more than two years before I get bored or realize that doing what I love means a smaller paycheck or having to work with idiots ;)  One of these days I will find that perfect job.

My current job was taken mostly to improve my overall "sellability" (and money!).

Lots of our engineers have been here over 20 years.  I feel bad for them as they basically do what they are told for fear of losing their pensions.  They work horrible hours and seem to take a lot of flak.  Plus they have been designing the same thing most of their careers.  This is good and bad.  Makes you quite the expert in your field but it can really limit what company they can work for if they are let go or move on.  

I like to diversify ;)  Except for my current job, I have never worked for a competitor or designed products even remotely similar to another job I have had.  I even have some architectural experience from long ago ;)

I feel as though I am getting stuck on a career path I do not like.  Designing the same thing for 20 years is not for me.  I will most likely end up in management if I don't find a product I enjoy working on.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

9
I'm 54.  I've gotten W-2's from three entities in my life (one summer job in High School, the US Navy for one hitch, and a Major Oil Company for 23 years).  I found that there were real benefits to looking internally when the job got stale and I had a very satisfying career--no one needed to feel sorry for me, and I damn sure didn't "spend 20 years designing the same thing".

I had a bunch of head-hunter offers over the years, but it was always just different faces on the same politics and the money was never enough better to be compelling.

I saw hundreds of engineers on the 2-5 year rotation over the years and many were people we were really happy to see leave, some we were sorry to see arrive.  There were a few that we were happy to see arrive and sad to see leave.  The vast majority were interchangeable slugs that never distinguished themselves in any positive way--most acted like they were "just passing through" and didn't want to get invested.  These morons were a waste of air and rarely contributed anything important.  

When kids ask me the question the OP asked I say "start every job with the attitude that you are going to stay there for the rest of your life".  If it works out that you stay, then your early work is a lifelong credit to your future.  If if doesn't work out, then at least you've learned everything that you could and contributed to the company the most that you were able.  

Starting a job with the attitude that "you'll only be there 5-7 years" never lets you stop being a "temp" in your own mind and if you should happen to stay for 8 years then you see yourself as a failure.

David

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I've never started a new job thinking I am leaving after so many years.  I've also never started a new job thinking I will stay until I retire.

Job is something most of us need to keep our families fed, sheltered and sometimes to keep us entertained.  I try not to get consumed in my career at the expense of friends and family.

For young engineers, I feel that 5 to 7 years at one job is too long.  I would recommend 2 or 3 years and job shop until they find a company that fits their needs.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Age plays a huge role.  David, I'm going to pick on you, sorry.

At age 32, I'm from the generation where all I have experienced from companies is being a number. Some companies, usually smaller ones, treat the numbers more like people.  But, when push comes to shove, the numbers win and the people are let go.  I continually have to watch out for my best interests and I can do that by being marketable.  I stayed at my last employer for 6 years and head hunters were telling me that it was too long and I will be a hard sell because I was accustomed to the extra benefits that get earned with tenure.  In other words, will I be expecting those as part of the negotiation with a new job or am I willing to go back to only 2 weeks vacation and earn my 401k.

At age 54, you are from the generation where companies were loyal to the employees and their employees were loyal back.  Being a "company man" was a compliment, not an insult like it is for my generation who wants to get in, work hard, and go home when the whistle blows to things of "real" priority.  My generation (broad definition, if you would so oblige) has no loyalty to a company because they have no loyalty to us (big generalization, but sadly it gets applied to everyone).

To validate my claims as it applies to the general engineering population, look at the threads above me.  Those that hinted at their age show:
under 30 = move around and protect yourself while finding what you love.
over 50 = sit tight and find the existential pleasures in the daily grind.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I am in my mid thirties and have done my share of changing jobs (approx every 2-3 yrs) and all resulted in a much larger salary and some very interesting and rewarding projects.  I know for a fact that I am making much more due to the changing of companies than I would be if I stayed at my first company.  However, there are down sides to swithching companies.  
1) If that company had a retirement, you most likely will not be vested or will not meet all the requirments to get much if any of the retirement.  My jobs all had 401Ks and I was vested when I left, so that was not really an issue.

2) Vacation time - At one job I just hit the five year mark and obtained three weeks vacation when I decided to move to another company.  At the other company I had to start all over with just one week, after making it to the two week threshold I moved on to the next company and the cycle continues.  If I would have stayed at the first company, I would now have 4 weeks vacation.  At the time the salary outweighed the loss of vacation, but now with 2 kids and a stay at home wife, it would be nice to be able to take the time off and spend more time with them.

3) Moving - If you are changing cities in addition to jobs, it gets tougher to uproot families as you get older.

Changing jobs within the same company does not have these two draw backs and has many benefits as described in other postings.  Just things to consider, however, sometimes the increase in salary may just outweigh losing a weeks vacation.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

A star for you swertel.  I agree with you that depending on the demagraphics of generations, the "Xers" are more independent and the "Boomers" are more loyal.  However, switching jobs is a tricky thing for your carrer.  How do you find better jobs, but not look like a job hopper?  You have to find real good reasons why your leaving and why you are going into another company to explain to future employers.  


Now for kids graduating today I think are called Mulliniums.  They are sterotyped as kids that are realy looking for meaning with what they are doing instead of salary.  Work/life balance instead of 9 to 5.  And also, if they don't get it, they'll leave and find another company who will. This generation has also coined the phrase quater life crisess and boomerang kids.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I have had only one job for more than 2 years, most have been in the 1.5yr range. I have never had a big issue with people thinking I hop around too much.

There is no such thing as a job for life.

Sometimes the only way you can get what you are worth is by switching.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

swertel,
"At age 54 you are from the generation where companies were loyal to the emplyees..."  Try telling that to the tens of thousands of Engineers in the aerospace and defense industries who lost their jobs in the early 1970's and again in the early 90's or the thousands of Engineers who lost their jobs in the Energy related industries in the 1980s or the tens of thousands of Engineers who lost their jobs as manufacturing left the USA during the past two to three decades.  

zdas04 was lucky to land in a position with a company that provided an interesting and fulfilling career. I know a number of similar engineers who found similar fulfillment with a single company; more power to them and those like them.

However, most Engineers that I have met have moved from job to job like I have. From 1969 through 1995, I worked for seven different companies in four different arenas and in three different foreign countries as well as the US. I would not trade my experiences. I left a company for another primarily to gain additional experience in my profession and in some cases to experience new cultures both corporate and social.

I canonly recommend that if one is stagnating in his or her current position, don't be afraid to seek other employment. Similrly, if one intuits that his/her position or company is in jeapardy, seek employment elsewhere soon.
  

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Funny, so you shouldn't stay at an employer for more than 5-7 years.

I've also been told that staying less than 4-5 years (early in your career) makes you look like a job hoppper and that that's a bad thing.

So ideally you leave companies at spot on 5 years?

Different people have different ideas, what one likes another hates.  I think there's a lot more to be concerned about than planning which day you need to jump ship.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

(OP)
Twoballcane I will now have to admit that I am one of those "Mulleniums". I love engineering, and definitely am looking for a career i enjoy moreso than just to make loads of money. I also want that balance between work and life, and more to the life side, I must admit. My experience is that the push for moving every 5-7 years appears to be comeing from the midthirties-late forties age group. Such "life lesson" talks are usually accompanied by the old "you'll make more money" and "you'll 'get ahead' lines, and often the words are spoken by either manager-types or aspiring managers.

Perhaps my concern stems from the lack of engineers standing and saying, "I'm proud to have become an expert in my field"?

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

A company cannot be loyal.  Loyalty is a human attribute.  When I worked for big oil, I had supervisors that I would (figuratively) kill for.  I also had supervisors that I would have loved to (literally) kill.  The good ones were loyal and made very sure that they were fair, even when they had to do things that sucked.

215 other engineers started at Amoco the same day I did.  At 10 years, an HR type looked at the records and 5 of us were still with company.  That was 1990, many had left in the 1986 purges, but most were already gone by then.  Job hopping is far from a new Gen X or Mullenimum (what a stupid term) concept.    

I stayed with the same company because when I ran the numbers, staying worked better for me than leaving.  Remember the old quote "If you don't control your career, no one will", but also remember that controlling your career doesn't mean getting on some revolving-door bandwagon.  When other opportunities arise, you need to do a rational (not emotional) evaluation of both options and develop a weighting system that puts appropriate weight to each facet of both.  When I did that objectively I found that, for me, the greener grass on the other side of the fence was the result of light polarization and I stayed where I was.

David

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Hah, I can beat that.  I started my 2nd job out of college on a Monday.  Wednesday, there was a picnic lunch welcoming the 10 new hires, including myself.  The following Monday, I was the only one of the 10 still employed at that company.  All told, about 30% of the division got axed that Friday.  

3 yrs later, we show up one morning and see a notice for a mandatory meeting in another building.  We get there and there are 3 meeting rooms.  One was for the people packing up that day.  A second was for people who had projects to finish before they got laid off.  The 3rd was for people that were staying.

However, it's pretty hard to take ownership if you've got the short-timer mentality.  Sometimes, it's pretty obvious to your managers that you've got that one foot out the door.  That said, the bottomline has to be that if you hate your job you need to get a new one, but, if you don't hate your job, why leave?  

I've been at the current company for 10 yrs and there are still TONS of new stuff to learn.  Part of what keeps a job interesting is doing new stuff and epxanding your horizons.  You don't necessarily have to leave the company or even you department to achieve that, but, sometimes there's just too much inertia in the company to give you that opportunity.  

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I can relate to both sides of the argument.  I am in my late 30's, so it is somewhere in the middle.  I have moved around quite a bit (I am on my 6th employer).  I never started a job thinking I would only stay a short time.  In fact, most times I honestly believed that I would stay for the remainder of my career.  

Growing up I always said I wanted to do something I love and that was exciting.  I saw my father as staying in a job that he may not have enjoyed because it was the right thing to do for the family.  I suspect many in his generation had similar feelings as expressed here.  

What I have learned in my 17 years of working is that for the most part working for someone else is pretty much the same no matter where you go.  Yes, some places of employment are better and some bosses are better.  However, in the end the politics, bureaucracy, mundaneness, etc. are in every job.  After 5 or 6 years at one place you start to feel the same, unfortunately.  However, why change jobs for the sake of change.  I agree that family, etc. are my priority.  Therefore, why would I give up two weeks of vacation and better benefits to switch companies and end up feeling the same in a few years.

Since my last change (6 years ago), I have decided that I will stay where I am and only leave to start my own company.  I am starting to work towards that and hopefully will make it happen.  Right now I agree with ZDAS, the grass is not always greener on the other side when you look at all of the issues.  

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

toiap,

Your father's experience was the same as my father's, and one that I agree with your is probably a generational thing.  That being said, I learned from my father's "mistake."  Why do I think it was a mistake?  Because he stayed at that job that he hated, went on strike, and everything else just because the risk outwayed the potential reward for switching jobs while my brother and I were in school.  Once we graduated and moved out, my parents' expenses drastically decreased and he changed jobs.  My father is no longer the cranky irritable man he once was.  He needed to change much sooner because that would have been better for the family - in hindsight.

So why have I changed jobs as often as I have?  To make sure I learn as much as I can early on, experience the differences in industries and company perspectives, so I can find the one job to settle into for the long haul and become an expert engineer at it while achieving a reasonable work-life balance.

God, family, friends, self, work - that's the priority in life.  I need work to support family, so it may appear that I put work first; but in the end, I do it based on the above.  Just like sometimes self comes first.  That doesn't mean selfish, it just means you need to make yourself a better person first in order to benefit the rest.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

“Perhaps my concern stems from the lack of engineers standing and saying, "I'm proud to have become an expert in my field"?”

I think we had this discussion before in eng-tips, being a generalist or an expert.  There are pros and cons to both choices.  Many will argue that being a generalist will give you better job security, but the salary will not be that high.  However, being an expert will get you a higher salary, but less job security.

For my self, I am proud to be a rising expert (still lots to learn) in analysis and test on electronic equipment.  Analysis and test are my focus.  I have been doing it for the past 8 years in two different companies.  I enjoy a high salary, however, when downsizing comes around, we are usually the first to go.  Currently I’m in a big company with dozens of programs with engineering problems, so I’m not worried.  

You can still be an expert in your field and change companies; you just have to find skills that are transferable from one company to another.  That is why I like analysis and test, because no mater the product, the physics and test method are still the same.  In a way I feel like a consultant in my company.  People seek me out only when they have a big engineering problem.  

I guess I have this mentality because of the phrase “being a jack of all trades, but master of none”.  What will make you stand out from everybody else at job interviews and performance reviews?  

In any case, if you want to be an expert in something, you should start as a generalist.  The foundation of a good expert is that he knows something of other fields.  Do not be narrow minded.  You should be “Mater of one, but knowledgeable of many” (I should coin this!)


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Swertel,

I think we agree on this issue, just that you have not reached the same point I have.  

I understand what you are saying.  I once felt the same way and still occasionally have those feelings.  I share the same priorities.  My point is that every time I have changed jobs the novelty and excitement eventually wear off.  In fact, my wife knows about how long I have been at any place of employment by my attitude.  

At this point in my life I have come to the conclusion that these feelings probably will occur at every job as long as I am working for someone else.  I might as well stay at my current job where I have good people working for me and share similar values with.  As I said, my plan is for the next move to be when I leave to work for myself.  I do not see any value in changing jobs, starting at the bottom with respect to benefits, so I can experience the same BS at another employer.



RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I am on my second engineering job - I didn't get into the field until I was 30.  I stayed at my first job for 10 years, but *should* have left after about 7.  I was bored and too many people were minding my business.  Unfortunately I had to stay because of my kid and family situation.  I did finally leave after that stabilized and have been at my new job 7 months.  My salary did increase 20% and some benefits are better, but I did have to start over on 401k, profit sharing, etc.  All in all I am glad I changed jobs, but after 10 years I think I got too comfortable and it makes it hard to move.  I think I was also losing my confidence that anyone else would want me or that I could get a comparable or higher salary.  At 5-7 years you have gotten the experience but aren't so mired in the culture and it is easier to leave.  On the other hand, if you are happy where you are, not bored, count your blessings.  

I have also heard 10 years, 15 years max for a job.  That is from several different head hunters.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Head hunters don't get paid if people don't move.  Taking their advice is the same as taking the advice of a used car salesman on how long to keep a car or a stock broker on how long to keep a stock--all of them get paid based on transactions, not customer satisfaction.

David

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

(OP)
Good point on the head hunters, zdas04. And not to sideline the original discussion, but as my professional association likes to say

"the simple passage of time does not make a good engineer". Therefore, a headhunter would still find someone useful and desireable after even 20 years of service if those last few years of service were full of innovation and improvement.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

The last two paragraphs of zdas04's post are independent of issues such as loyalty (in either direction):

Quote:

When kids ask me the question the OP asked I say "start every job with the attitude that you are going to stay there for the rest of your life".  If it works out that you stay, then your early work is a lifelong credit to your future.  If if doesn't work out, then at least you've learned everything that you could and contributed to the company the most that you were able.  

Starting a job with the attitude that "you'll only be there 5-7 years" never lets you stop being a "temp" in your own mind and if you should happen to stay for 8 years then you see yourself as a failure.

Leaving just because it's been X years, when otherwise everything is going very well, strikes me as foolish.  It's probably a good idea, though, to look around every so many years just to see if better opportunities (better enough to be worth the upheaval of changing jobs) seem to be out there.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Just to expand on the HgTX's comment.  Many of you treat the annual salary review with considerable derision.  Whatever the issues there are with that process as implemented by most companies, the basic concept is sound.  

Most companies have programs or projects that run on schedules, and they do monthly assessments on progress and try to determine if there are issues, risks, successes, etc.  Likewise, every person should have a plan for their goals.  Their progress against their goals and objectives need to be assessed.  A "better" job for the most part, is meaningless; it's just like asking for the "best" metal.  Asking whether you're on the path to achieving your goals is a valid and important question, and it's something that should be done yearly.  Christmas season is a time of reflection and so this might be a good time to find out if you actually have goals and whether review your progress toward those goals.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

IRstuff,
Your comment

Quote:

A "better" job for the most part, is meaningless; it's just like asking for the "best" metal.
is just too good not to highlight.  It is the essence of what I've been trying to say.  As you say, a person has to manage their own career through some objective measure, and "progress towards goals" is among the best measure.

David

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Quote:

Head hunters don't get paid if people don't move.  Taking their advice is the same as taking the advice of a used car salesman on how long to keep a car or a stock broker on how long to keep a stock--all of them get paid based on transactions, not customer satisfaction.
zdas, I'd give you a star if you weren't maxed out already!

Now the OP was given the recomendation by a manager but it was my Technical Director who gave me my first job that he liked to see at least 4-5 years!

When all the managers, head hunters, experts... agree then maybe we should consider making decisions based on such rules of thumb.  However, till then winky smile I suggest everyone look at their own situation (as zdas says) and make the decision for them selves.  You may not always get it right but it's got to be better most of the time than relying on some arbitrary rule of thumb.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

My experience (already reported in other similar threads):
1st job: 3 years and 8 months;
2nd job: 5 years and 5 months;
3rd job: Currently 2 months.

In the first time, I moved because I was looking for a job to be nearer my future wife that was 200 Kms away.I ended up in the other part of the world 13000 Kms away from my country (together with my wife). I moved because  of the opportunity to move abroad, increase responsibility, join a bigger company and increase my salary (by this order).
The second move happened because I was finishing my contract and it was agreed that I would leave. I left exactly in the day that I agreed with my boss with the contract for my current job already signed. I found a job in another engineering field, with different responsibilities. In fact, as I usually say, up to now I had the luck that in over 9 years of professional experience I was only 1 week unemployed because I wanted to make a week vacation between my 2nd and 3rd job.
I don't follow any rule, I just grab the opportunities that I feel appropriate.
  

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"


I agree with the statement "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job" in part. If you remain at one company doing the same job for more than that, you are severely impacting your pay. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do the same job as the guy down the street for 20% less which is pretty much exactly what happens in corporate America today if you remain at one company.

That said, I do agree with the general sentiment that everyone has to make their own decision based on their career goals and age.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

mechengdude,
Your statement "...you are severely impacting your pay" is not always correct. Some companies take great pains in recruiting and hiring new graduates to promote in the future. I know and have known a number of these "golden ones"; normally they were easy to spot. These individuals are often promoted rapidly and I know a number who were promoted to vice president levels before turning 40. If you happen to be one of the "chosen", you may wish to reconsider moving to "greener pastures" too soon.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Found this:

Six Myths about work

http://www.boston.com/jobs/news/articles/2007/06/10/6_myths_about_work/

#1. Job hopping ruins your resume.
Job hopping is one of the best ways to sustain passion and personal growth in your career. It also helps you build a network quickly and allows you to build your skill set faster than if you worked in the same job year after year. The learning curve is always highest at the beginning.

And here's some good news for hoppers: Most people will have eight jobs between ages 18 and 32. This means most young workers are job hopping. So hiring managers have no choice but to hire job hoppers. Ride this wave and try a lot of jobs out yourself.

Check out the rest of the list.  It seems the future will be custom made for the Mullinium generation.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

stanweld -
We all have our opinions and unique experiences. I do not disagree that some companies will promote from within and will give great raises. My experience and the experience of many is that a majority of companies will not.

In my case, moving to another job has always netted a 15% salary increase and has been the primary factor that has kept my salary above the norm. for my experience and location.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

You really gotta be at the right company at a right time for advancing into ownership or management quickly.  As a new engineer, if there are many mid-level engineers (in their 30s and 40s) in the firm, it will be a while until you see any advancement.  If the firm has many senior level engineers/managers about to retire and the mid-level is thin, you can expect faster advancement.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

mechengdude,
You misunderstood my comments. I too have had experiences highly similar to yours and for the most part agree with you and recommend moving to secure greater pay and greater experiences. I simply stated that if you are one of the "chosen ones" and know that you are; you may be passing up a lucrative and hopefully satisfying career. These individuals, and they exist in my current company as well, leap frog their comtemporaries and middle managers. Of course they must perform; at least those individuals that I know did and are.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I have been reading this dialog for the past week and decided to put my own $.02 worth.

I am currently in the final week of my 3rd job since graduating from engineering school in Dec 1995.  I will be starting my 4th  job on January 2nd.

In each job change I have received a significant pay increase , typically ranging from 15% to as much as 50%, though the 50% increase was early on in my career and I was underpaid.  

I stayed with the first company for about 4 years, the second company ~1.5 years and this last company for just over 6 years.  

In each instance,  I took the job with the attitude that I might be there for the long haul rather than thinking that I will leave in X years.  In each case there were signs that told me that it was time to move on.  These signs ranged from the company getting bought out and all but shut down to just realizing that I am not happy being here any more.

In each job I also enhanced and developed my skill set in such a way that I was capable and ready to take on a bigger and better challenge.  In retrospect, I realize that had I not learned what I did on the previous job I would not be able to perform the next one.  I also found that when it was time to move on, that the opportunities seem to find me.

Overall, I would say that if you are happy where you are at and what you are earning to stay.  If not, then leave.  In either case, I don't believe that it hurts to look and see what is available periodically.  Even if you decide to stay, you will at least be doing so because you considered your alternatives and decided that it is the correct decision.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Some of what's in the article Twoballcane cites sounds reasonable, and some is crap.

Myth #3:  You'll be happier if you have a job you like.

They're right in that having a job you like doesn't guarantee overall happiness.  But having a job you don't like will sure as hell decrease your overall quality of life.


Myth #4. The glass ceiling still exists.

Their logic for calling this a myth is that "no one is climbing to the top".  That doesn't mean the glass ceiling doesn't exist for women who still want to climb.


Myth #5. Going to grad school open doors.

"Grad school generally makes you less employable, not more. For example, people who get a graduate degree in the humanities would have had a better chance of surviving the Titanic than getting a tenured teaching job."

The initial "myth" as stated is highly discipline-dependent, and their example is rather stupidly stated.  Are they saying that one would have a better chance of getting a tenured teaching job by forgoing the graduate degree?  Choosing to go into an academic field may (depending on the field) be a tighter job market, but it's not the degree itself that makes the market tight, it's the overall career choice.


I'm not sure what audience exactly they're aiming at.

Hg

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RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

HGTX

Yeah I kinda agree with you there.  However, I think they are targeting the Mullinium generation.  I must be getting too old to have a different opion from the younger generation.  

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Whoever, "they" are, they ain't here.
 
Myth #1 -- BS, it certainly ruins resumes for us.
Someone who's had 8 jobs in 14 yrs doesn't even make it to an interview.  Defense and aerospace product cycles are quite long, so an average 1.5 yrs on each job barely gets you through product design, and hence, no lessons learned.

Myth #3 -- BS, she's writing poppycock.  Published surveys of lawyers really don't show that much disatisfaction among lawyers: http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/pulse_of_the_legal_profession/

Myth #4 -- BS, she picked extreme data points as examples of the norm.  It's juvenile writing and pathetic statistics to boot.

Myth #6 -- Poppycock again, so does she think that a likeable slacker will get good things?  Rubbish.

TTFN

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RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

God, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who hated that list.  All my life, when I was happy at work everyone in the family knew it immediately and took blatant advantage of it.  When things weren't going so well I got left the hell alone.  All that without me every saying a word about how things were going.

The nonsense about the glass ceiling was the biggest pile of garbage I'd read outside of purposeful satire.  For people who didn't want to climb, there never was a glass ceiling.  For people who did, there were (and still are) a huge number of very specific filters that make most of us ineligible.  After a career of watching the golden path from the bottom, the single defining characteristic was not race, gender, religion, or (probably)sexual preference--the defining characteristic was that you had to be a tiny bit smarter than average, you had to have zero scruples about stabbing a coworker, you couldn't have a home life, and you had to be willing to work 100 hours/week.  It looked like there were extra hoops for the female sharks because no one on the other side of that ceiling wanted to have to deal with sharks with maternal urges, but once a woman had exhibited adequate soullessness I saw a bunch of them move above that ceiling.

David

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Zdas, I think I'm with you on this topic.  

For those of you who think it's a generational thing I'm only just out of my 20s if you want a data point.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I agree with guys, however, I know (even defense) companies are changing their thinking of how to hire the next generation of engineers (or employees) to something like this list.  Just like Gen X brought in the dress down Fridays (and I think got rid of the tie all together for engineers) and 9/80 weeks, the Millenniums will change the work landscape in some form or fashion.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I just hope that alot of people read that and think being a friendly, lazy, and an under achiever is a good thing... improves the jobs for the rest of us!

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Mid 30's one company since graduation (10 years this June).  We are being gobble up my a huge firm so this may be my first move depending on how things go.  I hope the length of my time at one place is a help to my resume.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Like everything in life, it is all about balance.  Happiness, opportunity to learn, work/life balance, cash, security, safety and I am sure many more.

Personally, I am nearly 33 and have been employed at the same Company for 15 years in mid January.  For this, I get Long Service benefits, security (relatively), stability for family, flexibilty in hours and a reasonably good salary.

Being a "big" Australian steel company, I feel that I have "changed jobs" about 3 times now.  Each time building, skills, experience, credability, salary, etc.
I have been able to work in several departments, and been part of 3 very significant projects/developments for the company.

First four years was a traineeship where rotation around parts of the plant was part of the deal.
Next 3 years was at a Thin Strip Casting development project (electric steelmaking, casting and rolling mills experience).  The next step for this project was commercial development in the USA.  In effect, needed a new job, but ended up being basically head-hunted for the next job.
Next 5 years was at an Air Separation, Hydrogen and Compression Plant.  Vastly different plant to steelmaking.  This plant was outsourced and I probably could have gone with it, but decided to stay in the company, due mainly to the offer put to me.
Next 3 years was spent in the Gas Distribution section. "just a bunch of pipes and a couple of gasholders". Yeah right, this was a great new challenge.

Just now have been requested to join a new capital project to build a new steam generation and power plant since the existing one is at end of life.  This will proably be the biggest ever single development in the steelworks (nearly twice that of a new Blast Furnace).  This will [probably] take up the next 5 years, at which point, I will be able to move into the long term "ownership" of this plant.

So basically what i am saying is, that new challenges are usually good to have, but so are many of the other attributes that everyone in this thread has discussed.  In many respects it is a personal choice.  So keep all the thoughts that others have expressed in mind as you progress through your working life.  

As you say, there are good things about having expertise, but part of that is having the experience to know what expertise you need.

Sure, by the time I give the steel game away, I will have only dealt with the steel industry, but my main aim in life is enjoy my life, not just be able to say [on a tombstone] that I worked here there and everywhere.  (Not that i saying I will stay until I retire or die, just at the moment there is not enough reason to seriously look elsewhere)

Finally, I wish all of you well for the season that is upon us now [regardless of what your particular beliefs are], and I look forward to hearing your points of view in the new year.

Best Regards,
Darren

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I don't think anyone mentioned this...Changing jobs frequently may increase one's pay too much. If someone gets around 20% raise every time they change jobs, this may cause their pay requirements to be too high for the kind of work they do, thus causing them to be a less desirable employee. Who wants to hire a $120k/year cad jockey?

I'm 32 and at my third job since getting my bsme. I've been baited with stock options and profit sharing at my current job so I'll be around here for awhile.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

If you are happy with where you are in your career there is little incentive to move on.  You can find your own opportunities based on your goals rather than following someone elses "professional" recommendation.  Trying to force your career into a particular timeline in my opinion can lead to having to make some pretty poor choices.  Career coaches can provide input but you have the final say in the choices you make.

With the same sentiments as AusSteelMan, the very best to all for the holiday season.

Regards,

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I don't think anybody is being forced to do anything, this is more of a guidline or even a trend of what people (or young professionals) are doing these days. With the culture of layoffs, it may be smart to jump at the peak than being drag down with the ship.  As with anything, programs, projects, products,...etc, all have a life cycle and typically it is about 5 to 7 years.  Which is funny enough the length of time I spend at a company.  I have left just at the peak just in time to avoid layoffs.  I have avoided two of them.  When you see that another company has won a big program or has a great product in the pipe line that they need to get to market, I say go for it.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Quote:

I don't think anyone mentioned this...Changing jobs frequently may increase one's pay too much. If someone gets around 20% raise every time they change jobs, this may cause their pay requirements to be too high for the kind of work they do, thus causing them to be a less desirable employee.

If an employer wants to increase my pay to a level above the market rate out of generosity or in an attempt to price me off the market then I would be delighted to accept the money. In the mean time, if I decide that working for that employer has become intolerable for some reason then I'll find another employer. In the mean time at least I'll have the extra money. Nothing says you can't take a pay cut to improve your quality of life if you feel it is right to do so.
 

----------------------------------
  
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

This thread has made me feel better. One of the things I hate about my resume is my frequency of job hopping. I recently left a very prestigous place for a 20% pay raise and a 30% lower cost of living and also a chance to live back in my hometown (can't put a price on that, although boredom does set in at times!).

So heres my stats from 1993 on.

Two co-op jobs from 1993-1996.

3rd job total- First job out of engineering school stayed for 11 months. Due to poor management, poor pay and an ill advised relationship with a secretary. I quit after lining up the next one

4th job-second out of engineering school- Automotive field. Pretty good job, 20% better pay initially and then another 25% raise when I went from contracting to full time with them. Stayed for 4 years with them then got a leave of absence to get the master degree I always wanted. Planned on returning was unfortunately not given the option due to post 9/11 freeze. This actually turned out to be a good thing as I started working a second masters degree in another technical field related to engineering. Commuted 1 hour each way for this so that was a bummer, plus a lot of travel.

5th job (third out of engineering school)- went into this one knowing I was going to leave at some point. I just did this job as I finished my second masters. Stayed for 15 months. It was great knowing that this one was just to help pay tuition. It was kind of a bad work environment and if I was planning on staying there fulltime the stress level would have been pretty damn high. It was also my shortest commute (less than 10 minutes!).

6th job 4th out of engineering school(new city, new field). I got into the medical field and this was the best salary, but I moved to an expensive city. In this case, it was like starting at square one and had a lot to learn. Stressful field, stressful environment with little support at times and some bad coworkers, but some great ones as well. Good time and bad times abound. Left only because I was offerred a job at a great increase back in my hometown which is alot cheaper to live in. It was a bit difficult to leave in some ways as this was a fun town to live in. Met my current gf here (have dated a fair share of girls, but this one moved back to my hometown with me and we'll likely get married soon). Stayed 13 months, had hoped to stay for 3 years or so, but had to go when this offer came up since I had turned down the job in my hometown before (only because I had already accepted the job in this new city).

7th job- Same field as previous one, better pay but sometimes the hours are considerably more. Can be quite stressful. Since it's in my hometown may stay awhile, but still get wonderlust. Have gotten raises the last two years. Sometimes deal with bad working conditions (old equipment, negative coworker attitudes and a few lazy coworkers). Also alot of good people here. Been here now for 18 months.

Even though I'm in a slightly different field now, I still keep my PE license active. I'm also hoping to finish the certification process in this field. It will require at least passing two more tests (i passed the first) and earliest completion is 2009.



RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I just saw the article on Boston Globe.
This is BS from first to last word.
This just proves that anybody can write anything and publish a book on it.
I really woudl like to know where Mrs. Trunk got the information that she mentions on the article...

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

After 7 years in my current position, I have been asked to join the "dark side" and embark upon a more managerial path (same company).  This would place me on average in th 7 year per position group.

Regards,

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

I had a friend who ran a small print shop serving large and small clients. He welcomed turnover in the labor force because he didn't want to continue giving annual raises to ordinary workers.

The analogy in engineering is interesting. Nobody enjoys laying off professional workers, but if they leave routinely after a period of time, there is the opportunity to hire new experts in emerging fields. One that comes to mind is fracture mechanics. I had an attached MME grad who helped upgrade our engineering design based on fracture. It also helped educate our clients, too.

Making yourself available to others can create interesting new jobs in emerging fields. During the early days of cruise missile development a number of my coworkers were moving into smaller turbine engine mfrs. They discovered that there is such a thing as a low cost, expendable turbine engine.

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

Just my two cents ...

While I have to agree with zdas ... I do have this to offer:

I'm in my early 40's and have changed jobs 5 times since graduating.  In my experience working for a small company (less than 150 people) can lead to burn-out quicker than if you work for a larger company.

However when I worked for a much larger corporation (more than 1,000) you become just a number as it's been stated earlier.

At this larger company I had very little opportunity to move up the corporate ladder because I was in a department that had almost 100 people.  Plus a good percentage of these people had been there for 20+ years and hadn't been promoted in the past 10 years.

At one small company I got to a certain point where there was nothing for me to move into ... meaning there was no place else for me to grow.  So should I have stayed there and become stagnant or look for other opportunities else where ?

So far in my career I've only worked at one company where I knew that I didn't want to make a long term comittment.  Luckily for me I was only there for 1 year.

Other than that, when ever I've interviewed at a new company I have been lucky enough to accept an offer from only those companies that I've wanted to make a career there.  I'm hoping to stay with my current employer (3+ years) for quite a while.

I like the advice my father gave me many years ago ... "I work to Live, I don't live to work."

Cheers ...

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

2
Well I'm 71 and held 4 different jobs in 27 years.  However the last one was doing Star Wars work in the Kwajalein Atoll.  The scuba diving and sailing were out of sight.  Working for the US Army was another story.  An MIT engineer that I knew (I think he was a certified genius) said it plainly.  "You come to work here with two buckets.  One is for the money and the other is for the B.S.  No one ever leaves with a full bucket of money."  It followed for me.  I arrived full of P&V with experience and awards in my field looking forward to making a contribution and that P&V lasted for a couple of years before the B.S. took over.  I found my career being much more influenced by bureacracy than technical challenges. I went into each new position feeling like I could contribute to my perception of what the organization goals were.  Each time I found that the real goals of upper management were not the stated goals.
 Yeah maybe 5 years is enough to get you B.S. bucket overflowing and time to dump it and go to a new spot with a new bucket.  

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

klyde,

I have a different way of saying what you said: "You start a new job and your employer starts to poison you slowly with arsenic. In the beginning, the effect is small, but it eventually builds up to toxic levels. You then purge yourself of the arsenic's effects by changing jobs. The new job begins again the cycle of progressive poisoning. And so on and so on."

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

klyde, so you started work at 44? Nice if you can put it off that long...

- Steve

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

SomptingGuy:  No I started my professional career in 1965 and retired in 1992.  Check it out 27 years.  Does'nt count my pre-engineering jobs from 1957 to 1965

RE: "Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job"

klyde:

Ok, sorry, thought you were still working by your tone.  Sounds like you had a fantastic career.

- Steve

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