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SS # Disclosure
7

SS # Disclosure

SS # Disclosure

(OP)
I am confused. Is it right not to disclose your ss# on a employee application prior to an interview or a job offer?  According to Federal Law it is voluntary.  I have never had an application ask for my ss#. Up until now the only time I needed to write my SS# was after I was hired. I was born in the US, have never had debts/loans and I actually own 'everything' I have accumulated in my short life (thank you employer salary :)).  Most of us are taught growing up not to 'jump off a bridge just because someone is doing it' (some listen and apply it). Just because a college teammate or dorm mate you just met and have to be around for 4 years smokes cigarettes, doesn't mean you have to do it to fit in and have a good 4 years around them in the frat house or on the team. With all the types of employers that have employees (techs to managers) losing data and electronic equipment it doesn't seem that secure to become careless with your private data, freely handing out information to a company that has not offered you a position.  HR may may not be aware, engineering departments have projects where they can't disclose certain company information to people on the project or in forms and reports. Thank you for your help.

RE: SS # Disclosure

As I understand it, yes it's voluntary.

However, if you fail to provided it the potential employer can choose to reject your application on those grounds.

You can't be forced to give it out but you can face consequences for not doing so.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SS # Disclosure

I have been asked for it while applying for an apartment, I told them nicely that there are many other apts I can spend my money on that don’t require my ss# and I assure you as Mechanical engineer I can manage the rent and have never missed a payment. The guy did end up calling my boss and asking if I was really an engineer.

I guess, it comes down to how much leverage do you have? If you really want the job/ the jobs a perfect fit...its probably worth it.  You can at lest ask them what they need it for, if its required and if they will shread it when they are done. If you dont like their answer, be prepared to walk.  

RE: SS # Disclosure

2
At my current job, I did not disclose my SSN. I told them if hired, I will contact HR and work with them on it. I was told that it showed I am security conscious and they liked that.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: SS # Disclosure

It's voluntary until it's not.  

We recently got new medical insurance cards with an alias number instead of SSN, but my security clearance application REQUIRED SSN!!!

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: SS # Disclosure

I would never disclose my SSN# on an employment application.  I question anyone that asks for my SSN# even at the doctors office.....The last time a doctors office asked for it.....I refused.  I went through identity theft and it took me three years to clean up the mess.....

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: SS # Disclosure

WHAT HORSE DROPPINGS.  The employer is required by law to remit something over 7% of your salary to the Social Security Administration into your account and then match it with their own money.  If the guys above didn't disclose it to their employer, then someone could be going to jail for non-compliance.  The only place outside the government where you have to disclose your SSN is to your employer.

If you want to delay that disclosure until after you are hired, then you certainly have that right, BUT that move is guaranteed to raise a fair number of red flags and I sure wouldn't hire you.

David

RE: SS # Disclosure

David,
I was hired, SSN was required. It is NOT required to hire. It is only needed AFTER hired.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: SS # Disclosure

Why should a SSN be required to be considered for a job?  Is this a way of estimating citizenship?

Obviously, once you have accepted the job, there are tax laws that would probably require your SSN.  It just seems too early in the process to be giving out that type of information.

RE: SS # Disclosure

It's just a bureaucratic thing, just like my doctor's office wanting my SSN, even though they never used and can't use for anything.  I leave it blank, and no one even notices.  

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: SS # Disclosure

zdas04, not quite the same but many (most?) people opt for direct checking.

To do this the employer needs your bank details.

Is it reasonable for them to ask for this at the interview stage?

Would you provide it?

Ok so not quite the law angle but none the less...

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SS # Disclosure

(OP)
Chris,
Did you speak-up or did you wait until HR said something about not havng it filled in?

David,
You are referring to the Federal W-2 form, for Employee With-Holding Allowances. Even the W-2 has writing about the Federal Law I mentioned.  As Ctopher stated, in my limited experience I have received federal forms after an offer has been extended to me and after I accepted.  I have been in offices  (military companies too) that 'shuttle' your application papers to different people around the building to managers, secretaries and other types of workers.  


  

RE: SS # Disclosure

(OP)
Kenat,
The direct checking (and lets include 401k, stocks) is also after the offer and acceptance. From my short and limited experience :).

RE: SS # Disclosure

NCAASwimmer,
I left the SSN line blank. They told me they needed it to finalize the hiring process. I told them it is not needed unless they hire me...they called me and I explained that I do not give personal info to anyone that calls me. I said that if I'm hired, send me the official paperwork and I will send it back and call them with the SSN. They understood and agreed.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: SS # Disclosure

KENAT,
Deposits with the Social Security Administration have nothing to do with whether you get a check or direct deposit.  There is always an item on your check stub called "FICA" that represents a deposit into the Social Security Administration into the account with an account number that is your SSN.

NCAASwimmer,
No, I'm not talking about W-2 or W-4 forms.  There is an Employer report (I don't remember the IRS form number, I don't have employees so I don't have to fill it out) that the government is really insistent about getting every month that lists the employees, their SSN's, their gross pay for the period, the amount of employee contribution to FICA, and the employers contribution to FICA.  If the employer doesn't send it in on time the IRS gets really cranky.

All,
As I said in my first post, there is no legal obligation to provide your SSN in the original interview/application process, but I would see refusing to provide it as an indication that the applicant is hiding something that might easily be germane to their being an effective employee and I wouldn't consider an applicant who came with that much baggage unless there were compelling reasons (e.g., an experienced person who's work product I might be able to evaluate from their published work).  Someone with less than 10 years experience who refused to provide their SSN on an application wouldn't get an interview from me.

David

RE: SS # Disclosure

My employer performed a credit check, and, I believe, a background check before offering the position.  I'm not positive, but I believe they needed the SSN to do so.  

Besides, would you really want to work for someone you can't trust with your personal information?  They'll have it after they hire you regardless.  That being said, I do not list my SSN on my resume (that might be ludicrous), but I was asked to fill out appropriate paperwork at the interview.

RE: SS # Disclosure

I have never known any employer who asked for this information until an offer was made and accepted.

Like many things that employers ask for, there is no reason to need this information until after an employee is hired; in fact, by asking for this at the application stage, the employer is adding a burden of security to their own procedures, since the employer is now expected to treat all applications as sensitive documents.  

Sure, by not providing it, you might flag yourself as 'not a team player', but, by asking for it, the employer is flagging themselves as rather disorganized and lacking in knowledge about information security.

RE: SS # Disclosure

As part of the hiring process for my last two jobs, a credit check and background check were required. These two checks require your SSN, which is probably why you were asked for it. Unless you're told that said checks are part of the process, I wouldn't cough up your SSN.

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
Certified DriveWorks AE
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog
Dell M90, Core2 Duo
4GB RAM
Nvidia 3500M

RE: SS # Disclosure

I agree that giving it before actually hired should not be a requirement.  In todays environment, it may actually be a mistake due to identity theft.  As in Hecklers case, once bitten, twice shy.  Of course, after being hired, it is required, and I see no problem with that.  That is when the company needs it for various governmental requirements, not before.  As far as needing it for background checks, I have seen companies extend employment offers without requiring the number, but the applicant was probationary and the offers were always subject to revocation depending on the background check results when they did get the numbers.

RE: SS # Disclosure

I would be hestitant to work anywhere that did not run credit checks and criminal background checks prior to hiring someone.  They need your SSN to run your credit and to check to see if you are a felon.  


RE: SS # Disclosure

Zdas, I was aware of that, thanks.  My point was SSN is just one piece of information that probably isn't needed until you're at least given a firm offer if not until you've actually started.

The background check is a good example of when they'd need it before you start but not necessarily before you get a conditional offer.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SS # Disclosure

The company can run the felony check after you are hired. If you are not a felon, nothing to worry about; if you are felon, you're fired. The SSN is not required for hire, although some companies will tell you otherwise. It's no big deal to give it to them, just don't send it over the net or in the mail...call them. If they want it in email, send it encrypted.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: SS # Disclosure

Sounds a bit like being questioned for a driving (drivers) license by the police.  If you don't drive and therefore don't have one on you, you are guilty.

RE: SS # Disclosure

You mean our new national ID card?

RE: SS # Disclosure

ctopher, thanks for the clarification.  This is how it worked in UK defense but the US seems to take it to another level so I thought they'd need it before they even let you in the buildingwinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SS # Disclosure

ewh, It's been a while since I lived over there... Didn't know about a USA ID card.  Do tell.  We're being threatened with one here in the UK, only it'll cost us to have one!

RE: SS # Disclosure

It cost us over here (US) to have an ID with all the nifty $hi7 on it.

SG, O you didnt get the memo? they changed the rules so now your guilty until proven otherwise.

RE: SS # Disclosure

Somptingguy,

There is nothing more 'un-american' than not driving.  

RE: SS # Disclosure

csd72...

Are you suggesting that we should all play golf?

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: SS # Disclosure

SG,
The powers that be pushed thru some drivers license legislation directly imposes prescriptive federal driver’s license standards.  "A Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a state to any person unless the state is meeting the requirements" specified in the Real ID Act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID_Act
Sounds like a national ID card to me!
flush2

RE: SS # Disclosure

Senselessticker, what does being a felon have to do with a good engineer?

RE: SS # Disclosure

Ok, more was deleted than I'd anticipated.

On the front of the SSN do you think we the public should be more active in pushing for it to be treated with more sensitivity?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SS # Disclosure

Quote:

If you want to delay that disclosure until after you are hired, then you certainly have that right, BUT that move is guaranteed to raise a fair number of red flags and I sure wouldn't hire you.

I would not want your job if you made that an issue.  Nobody but you is going to safe guard your identity.  You would have a different opinion if you went through a theft of your identity.....knowing someone out there was opening up accounts and charging expenses under your good name.

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: SS # Disclosure

The problem is really considerably bigger, since the whole issue of some sort of national identity card raises hackles all around, and there is, as yet, no means of permanently and uniquely identifying that you are you.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: SS # Disclosure

We, as a society, are extremely inconsistent in that we have conflictings goals;  one being maintaining a person's private and personal information, the other being to verify a person is who they claim to be.

In a really extreme but real situation that impacts many, active duty members of the military all but have the SSN tatoo'd on their forehead for all to see.

This is because our SSN is also our "serial number" (for those with long memories).  To make matters worse, congress passed the "Privacy Act" which is intended to help protect personal information, yet the end resulty of this "privacy act" is every time you sign your name on a form, you must ALSO fill out and sign a "Privacy Act Statement", where you acknowledge you are aware of the Privacy Act.....and you MUST put your SSN on the Privacy Act Statement!   ALso, anytime you use a check to pay for anything in a military facility, you must include your SSN.  When I was active duty, I had my SSN pre-printed on every check!

Talk about a bunch of BS!

Almost the same thing, however, exists at many universities, where your student ID IS your SSN.

OK,  back on topic:  I think it routine for companies to require or request your SSN as part of your employment application,  but I also think it is OK for one to leave it blank, or insert "will be provided upon hiring".

RE: SS # Disclosure

I was just told last night that I couldn't get an auto insurance quote for refusing to give the operator my SSN.  I said, "Thanks, but I don't give that information out".  Not for a quote anyway.  

RE: SS # Disclosure

That's because rates are partially based on credit rating.

RE: SS # Disclosure

That's fine.  I can understand that.  I would think, however, that they could give me a quote based on what I tell them my credit is (or some generic score that they feel is average) obviously to be confirmed with actually checking my credit if I decide their quote is competitive.  
I don't want to give out that information like candy just to find out they want to charge me twice what I'm already paying.

RE: SS # Disclosure

Err, why would/should a credit rating affect an insurance quote?  Surely it should be a claim rating.  I never understood Mercun financials.

RE: SS # Disclosure

Quote:

In a really extreme but real situation that impacts many, active duty members of the military all but have the SSN tatoo'd on their forehead for all to see.

I forgot my dog tags have my SSN# number on them....Do they still put the SSN# on them?

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: SS # Disclosure

I am sure insurance places check your credit just to give them anothr reason to raise the rates of someone with a perfect driving record.

Most places in Michigan will base rates on credit scores. (some people do not know this) When I first moved out on my own (and was pretty free with the credit cards) I couldn't figure out why my rates were skyrocketing (with a perfect record and regular car)until I found out about the credit check.  Found some places that did not check and switched companies.  saved a lot of cash.

As others have said.  employers are doing it now.  Can't wait for the day when they fire you because of it ;)

RE: SS # Disclosure

Heckler

Yes, the US Military uses SSAN for identification, including on dog tags (at least as of my last issue).

RE: SS # Disclosure

Melone,

Being a felon or not being a felon has nothing to do with being a good engineer. However, it has alot to do with how you check the y/n box that reads: "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" Y____ N____

Without running the background check there is no way keep someone honest.  And let's face it... How many convicted felons would lie about it on an application if they knew they would never get caught???  

Additionally, being paranoid about handing out your SSN nowadays is pointless.  If anyone really wants your info, they can get it.  Just pay the few bucks per month to monitor your credit and forget about it... Or... go live in a cave...

RE: SS # Disclosure

What I find hilarious about this is that if you live in a small country, or in my case a small planet, your name is a unique identifier. Why is it so EVIL to give out an additional unique identifier that is in numerical instead of alphabetical format? They are all ones and zeros these days.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: SS # Disclosure

If it's so easy to get the information, why do I need to provide it then?

RE: SS # Disclosure

It's easy Greg there are people on this small planet that want an easy ride and if that means stealing your identity to make some financial gains they will do it.  It pu tmy credit rating in the toilet to the point I couldn't even get a loan for a car.

Quote:

Additionally, being paranoid about handing out your SSN nowadays is pointless.  If anyone really wants your info, they can get it.  Just pay the few bucks per month to monitor your credit and forget about it... Or... go live in a cave...
  When I went through identity theft these types of protection mechanisms were not around....I had to put a credit hold upon personal notification with the credit holding agencies.

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: SS # Disclosure

And I thought engineers were logical...

I'll try again:

1 This is my name: (arbitrary unique alphabetical sequence)

2 This is my SSN: (arbitrary unique numerical sequence)

Why is it 'safer' to tell all and sundry  (1) rather than (2) ?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: SS # Disclosure

Sorry Greg I must have missed your point.....I don't speak or read Australian poke  

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: SS # Disclosure

I think one big difference is that you can't get credit with only my name unless you have my SSN.  
It's been a while since I got a new credit card, but I think that is an accurate statement.

RE: SS # Disclosure

I'm sorry, I think this is all kind of funny... If you don't want to provide your SSN on an application, then just don't... I'm sure the potential employer will be able to find someone else who will be less likely to "cause trouble" over issues that don't matter.  

And again, I would be afraid to go to work for a company who did not have strict policy in place to check my criminal background and run my credit BEFORE making me an offer.  Mom and Pop type of companies surely don't need to, but any company playing ball with the big boys will certain need such a policy as a means to protect itself.

Ever heard of corporate espionage?  There are con's all over the place who are for hire to the highest bidder in the dark world of cat and mouse corporate espionage...  Wanna bet if many of these guys have a record??

RE: SS # Disclosure

Is anyone else disturbed with the big brother mentality?

RE: SS # Disclosure

The flip side is that companies wouldn't need to do checks if people didn't lie.  

There was the recent case of a beloved MIT adminstrator who was fired after decades on the job, for lying on her original job application.  Clearly, companies didn't check as thoroughly before, and they got burned, and they now check.  That was Reagan's famous line, "Trust, but verify."

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: SS # Disclosure

Greg,
I don't think a name such as "John Smith" could really be considered a unique identifier.

RE: SS # Disclosure

Mother's maiden name is another one that may even unlock more doors than the SSN, and is even more readily available.

Having grown up in the era when SSN was used as student ID, I'm not too paranoid about it (barn door, horse, etc.), but I refuse to just hand over information that someone has no right to, just because they asked me for it.  (Back when I still wrote checks, the grocery store didn't get to have my SSN either.)

This is roughly (except for the identity theft issues) along the lines of an employer asking in an interview about age and marital status.  Legally, they can't ask that.  But what happens when they do?  Is there any politically safe way to maintain one's rights?  Is there any point in even *having* rights if they can't be enforced?  If they can't, do they really exist?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: SS # Disclosure

If you really think your "rights" are being violated because a company wants to "check you out" then I encourage you to go try your luck elsewhere; where sex, age, marital status, religous belief, sir name, ethic background, sexual orientation, and the color of your shirt are not only factors in what kind of job you have, but also dictate what kind of LIFE you get to have...  

I am truly amazed that so many in this forum have issue with a potential employer checking your background.  Doing so actually protects you a thousand times over more than it could ever hurt you.

RE: SS # Disclosure

senselessticker-
I would expect the company to check me out AFTER they have made a formal offer of employment, not as a part of their pre-interview screening process.

RE: SS # Disclosure

Senselessticker,
For me it has nothing to do with my rights being violated, just being cautious. These days we have to be.
My current employer (a major aerospace firm) understood this and told me they need employees that are cautious about security.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: SS # Disclosure

Let's not dilude ourselves....  Companies perform background checks for their own benefit, not the prospective employee.

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