Uncompensated Overtime
Uncompensated Overtime
(OP)
Am I alone in not understanding why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"? It seems like from what I have read in many posts here and the attitude of many of my co-workers at my current employer that if you have chosen the field of engineering then 60 hour work weeks just come with the territory. Now don't get me wrong, I do enjoy engineering but when it comes right down to it, I work to live, not live to work.
Now as a salaried employee I realize that means that uncompensated overtime will be required, but I guess where I depart from what everyone else is that I feel it should be the exception and not the rule. Yes, I realize that stuff happens and in a crunch I might have to work 50,60, or even 70 hours a week to get through the crunch, but I don't feel like I should be expected to put in these kinds of hours every week. I do have a life outside of work you know.
I changed jobs a few months ago. When I was looking I was seriously in the running for another position besides my current employer. I wanted the other job more, but the money wasn't there (They really wanted to hire me but I think they also were really looking for a less senior person to work for less money), but the real tie breaker my current employer sold me on was the four day work weeks. Since I was giving up four weeks of vacation, I figured having every Friday off would make up for losing two weeks of vacation. After all, I looked back over the years and I usually only take one full week off. The rest of my vacation time went to taking long weekends throughout the year. It seemed like a deal too good to pass up.
So I took the job and quickly found out the off Fridays were a benefit that management really doesn't want engineers to use. We are already putting in a ten hour day M-Thurs. Management has repeatedly told engineering in department meetings that we are expected to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. I really don't want to work 11.25 hour days to make it happen (frankly I'm not going to get 11 hours worth of work done anyway, my attention span just isn't that long.) The only real way to get the hours done in a reasonable way is to work on the off Fridays like many of my coworkers do. This aggravates me because they sold the four ten hour day work week as a benefit at my interview, but then basically tell me that if I want to keep my job I am pretty much going to have to work five days.
The reason is clear: My firm direct bills our customers for our hours. If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40. The more I work, the more profit the company makes. Now why the hell should I care? I just don't see what it in it for me. My impression of corporate America is that when times are good the fat cats in upper management take more than their fair share, and maybe, just maybe if you are a good little worker bee and sacrifice your life to the company, you might get thrown some table scraps from the feast, but when times are tough, it is the employees who are expected to make the sacrifices. To me it seems very one sided, I can give 150% but yet be walked out the door tomorrow simply due to a corporate takeover or the whim of some know nothing bean counter looking to boost margins.
Now as a salaried employee I realize that means that uncompensated overtime will be required, but I guess where I depart from what everyone else is that I feel it should be the exception and not the rule. Yes, I realize that stuff happens and in a crunch I might have to work 50,60, or even 70 hours a week to get through the crunch, but I don't feel like I should be expected to put in these kinds of hours every week. I do have a life outside of work you know.
I changed jobs a few months ago. When I was looking I was seriously in the running for another position besides my current employer. I wanted the other job more, but the money wasn't there (They really wanted to hire me but I think they also were really looking for a less senior person to work for less money), but the real tie breaker my current employer sold me on was the four day work weeks. Since I was giving up four weeks of vacation, I figured having every Friday off would make up for losing two weeks of vacation. After all, I looked back over the years and I usually only take one full week off. The rest of my vacation time went to taking long weekends throughout the year. It seemed like a deal too good to pass up.
So I took the job and quickly found out the off Fridays were a benefit that management really doesn't want engineers to use. We are already putting in a ten hour day M-Thurs. Management has repeatedly told engineering in department meetings that we are expected to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. I really don't want to work 11.25 hour days to make it happen (frankly I'm not going to get 11 hours worth of work done anyway, my attention span just isn't that long.) The only real way to get the hours done in a reasonable way is to work on the off Fridays like many of my coworkers do. This aggravates me because they sold the four ten hour day work week as a benefit at my interview, but then basically tell me that if I want to keep my job I am pretty much going to have to work five days.
The reason is clear: My firm direct bills our customers for our hours. If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40. The more I work, the more profit the company makes. Now why the hell should I care? I just don't see what it in it for me. My impression of corporate America is that when times are good the fat cats in upper management take more than their fair share, and maybe, just maybe if you are a good little worker bee and sacrifice your life to the company, you might get thrown some table scraps from the feast, but when times are tough, it is the employees who are expected to make the sacrifices. To me it seems very one sided, I can give 150% but yet be walked out the door tomorrow simply due to a corporate takeover or the whim of some know nothing bean counter looking to boost margins.





RE: Uncompensated Overtime
I often take my laptop home, and work there, but on the other hand, I often take off to get my daughter to hockey practice. People who are pushed to work 60 and 80 hour weeks for no extra compensation usually burn out, and that does no good to anybody. As I said to one co worker, on my last day at that job, "There's always another job out there somewhere, but I only have one family, and I plan to keep it that way".
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Corporate America loves playing up the "do it for the good of the company thing". Companies love to perpetuate the stigma that "all the engineers work 50 plus hours". Once they have that culture embedded at their work place you look like the odd man out for complaining.
Now don't get me wrong. There might be some small firms where everyone needs to pitch in or the place goes under. Also there are places that actually do reward excess overtime with a bonus at the end of the year.
Now back to your dilemma, I would be pissed if the company sold the job as a four day work week and then basically said " four day work weeks are only for slackers; you need to work more hours".
Good luck.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
But seriously, I personally have no issue doing occasional overtime to meet deadline e.t.c. I consider that part and parcel of being a salary earner. I do object to companies expecting me to work more than those hours each and every week.
If you object to doing any unpaid overtime then I personally would suggest you get an hourly rate contract job where you do get paid for every hour.
csd
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
I'm not trying to gloat or anything, I'm just saying noty all engineering jobs are 45+ hours a week.
Okay, the next bit is just an ancedote from my own company but:
All of the R&D staff and production engineers (materials engineers, process engineers, product development engineers, QA engineers, etc) work 40 hours a week, few exceptions. The mechanical engineers (the ones who design in-house equipment) work 60-70 hours a week regularly. Maybe it's just mechanical engineers that are being screwed...
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Anyway - when my kids were small, working like that was simply not an option. Luckily, I worked for a large transportation engineering firm. I was able to get my work done in 40 hours, and get it done well. I was never pressured to work more. If you keep the constraint that you will not work overtime (except in extreme circumstances), you will develop the discipline to plan ahead to avoid crises.
The nice thing about my former company was that everyone was paid hourly. One could charge for as many hours as one worked. The only time I worked overtime without pay was when I was the project manager and I knew the budget was getting tight. Otherwise, I always charged and had everyone on the project do so as well. We are worth it!
Your time is worth it too. I echo the advice of others - get another job.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
In short, good management should be willing to work with you. Bad management you don't want to work for in the first place.
Regards,
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
"why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"? Actually your not, it's for the good of a few managers and owners. It's really not much different than if you’re on your way home and a robber puts a gun in your face and demands $800. In this case in disguised as professionalism.
Someday when your packing your kids off to go to the state university ( after two years of local community college ) they will be putting their kids in a new convertabel to go off to an expensive private school.
Was the job advertised as a 40 hr a week job? If so there are places like the wage and hour division of the Bureau of labor that may straighten the place out.
If they consistently make profits from your and others donated labor, sue them. They are behaving criminally.
You are a professional and paid for your time and not your hours. That doesn't mean you signed on for being robbed. Check the 13 th amendment.
As I said in another post Electricians on my current job get $2,500 + for working 60 hrs.
Find another job.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Focus should be maximizing productivity within the chargeable hours. Overtime should be utilized only from time to time to get over the humps in the workload (power pellets in Pac-Man?) not a routine. If management refuses to acknowledge this, move on.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
I work as a Mechanical design engineer and normally work 40hr a week, only 2 or 3 (i forget) weeks this year did I work +50hrs. Those weeks really big projects were being finished.
Its all in your boss, my boss is reasonable, if I need to get time off for my family its not a problem, we work something out.
I can also say I have an average salary for design engineer... I guess if you are asking to be payed well above average then maybe they expect you to work well above average. Other wise notify your boss and hope he is cool with working things out.
Just my two cent, good luck
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Not to gloat also II, after I was here for about 18 months, word gat around to my manager that I was putting feelers out for a different employer. He brought me into his office, offered me a demotion from engineer to designer, which allowed me to go from salaried-exempt to salaried non-exempt to qualify for OT with no change in salary. I enjoy my work, still have "unofficial" responsibilities which are usually reservered for exempts, and have been very happy with the change. I am also the only person here with that status (which does make me nervous when belt-tightening time comes around).
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
My current employer is just the opposite. Work is your life. If you dont have enough time to get something done then you stay all night until its done. Doesn't matter that the request was unreasonable to begin with. Our engineers work 12 hour days. They live here and even come in on their days off.
To each his own if they want to work like that. Not me!
My employer takes everything you give and leaves you with nothing. We have to work until 5. Now thats fine but if I worked late the previous day and want to leave at 4 the next then apparently they have a problem with me. The door should swing both ways. As long as I got my 40 (or 60!) in it shouldn't matter if I want to leave early here and there. If I had known it would be 60 for a normal week I would not have taken the job.
Some employers have that "you wash our back and we'll, oh! wait! we dropped the soap! can you bend over and pick that up for us?" philosophy ;)
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
This is very unfair and quite possibly illegal (as others have stated). Spongebob, there are companies that bill customers 60 hours and pay their employees for the full 60. That is where you want to be, I think.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
I would think it unlikely that every hour you work is a billable hour.
There are also hours where you are sick, have no work to do, in training e.t.c. e.t.c.
So saying that they bill for every one of your hours is a bit OTT.
As a salary earner, you should expect to do occasional couple of hours extra time, this is just part and parcel of being a salary earner. If you dont like it, become a contract worker.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
That's called overhead. Someone paid a salary of $50 an hour is not billed out at $50 an hour. IT's more likely $175-250+ an hour, not all of which is profit.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Dont put up with it - get ready to move and start to look else where as working for this sort of outfit only serves to make you bitter. Why let them get away with it. You wouldnt rent out a house for four days and let them live in it for seven would you ? So why give em 60 hours and only accept 40 hours pay ? fair rate of pay for a fair bit of effort. If the company has perks and compensates you in other ways then yeah maybe but it has to be some pretty good perks to make up for time away from family.
Ive seen guys live and breathe the company, then suddenly be paid off and think why did I bother investing so much in it and nothing to show....
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
I am used to make some overtime, but always in a project base, meaning that if I dont'need to stay, I will make my predefined schedule and that's it. Up to now, I had the luck to have managers that understood and were fair in this deal. But there is a lot of stories out there that this deal is only one way street.
This is unaceptable for me.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
BJC,
normal charge out rate in my industry is 2.5 to 3 times the pay rate. Overheads are often equal to salaries so this does not leave a huge amount of room for profit.
My point was just that saying I will work 40 hours and not a minute more is a little over the top. A few extra hours is not going to break your back, but say 10 extra hours every week is a bit too much on current engineers salaries.
imok2 made avery good point,
There are less educated people out there making more money than professional engineers, so why should we bust our ass for the type of salaries we are getting.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
-b
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
One part of my brain thinks:
Good machinists are hard to find and worth every doller?
The Other side thinks:
Why did my current employer fire about 300 union workers and move the majority of the operation to Mexico? Then re-hire only 5 non-union workers/machinists? Why are we shipping more product now?
Why do the same x-union workers complain that they lost their jobs and that manufacturing is going over seas or that the management is trying to replace them with a robot or other automated process?
Why don't the engineers here lose their jobs?
I agree with medicines philosophy
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
I accept that 'stuff happens'
As a result of HR's pig-headed stance there's a lot of unofficial give and take which allows us to recover some of our lost time. We're a creative lot, us engineers. This year I've been a lot more militant in taking back my time and I don't feel guilty about doing so.
The final crime of each year perpetrated by our HR department is that they pay us a offensively small sum in return for us being on a 1-in-6 callout rota and then have the nerve to call it a 'bonus'. A bloody bonus?? Just let 'em ask if I'm pleased with my callout 'bonus'...
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Normally, I work around 40 hours a week. I have always been of the opinion that if I'm regularly having to do more than this regularly, then this is a manpower issue and is the company's problem, not mine.
At the moment I work around 80 hours per week, but only for 6 months of the year, and the rest of the year I don't work (I'm on a 28/28 day rotation abroad). I regularly work more than 80 hours in the week, and this is fine too because I'm well rewarded for it (plus there's not much else to do there!).
Be bold - if you feel like you're being treated unfairly, say so. If it comes down to it, quit, and get a new job. If you can't afford to do this, then take it on the chin and accept that you gotta do what you gotta do.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Employers get away with this crap because they can, but remember you can vote with your feet.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
In Ontario The employee workplace standards applying to overtime and statutory holidays EXEMPTS "qualified practitioners of architecture, law, professional engineering, public accounting, surveying, and veterinary science; registered practitioners of chiropody (including podiatry), chiropractic, dentistry, massage therapy, medicine, optometry, pharmacy, physiotherapy or psychology;
registered practitioners under the Drugless Practitioners' Act (e.g., naturopaths, osteopaths) teachers, as defined in the Teaching Profession Act; and
students training for these professions."
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
What you wrote is absolutely true.
Just wanted to add a few thoughts...
1) There should be standards regarding the amount of overtime a Professional Engineer works (considering that the public's safety is affected by our work)
2) Another reason unpaid overtime occurs is because we allow it. Stopping this is difficult, since many people can't afford to simply quit their jobs.
3) Professional Engineers should lobby to have workplace standards regarding overtime set up (there are standards regarding how we use our stamps, why not have standards regarding the hours we work?)
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
That is the 'Working Time Directive" which covers the majority of workers but not those in utilities, rescue, police, armed forces , etc. It is well-intentioned and hopefully effective: it makes it unlawful for an employer to require more than 44 hours / week averaged over a long period (3 months? Can't remember) unless the employee agrees to opt out of the limit. Unfortunately I'm outside its scope so I can't comment for sure.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
We moved offices nearer to where a gym is located where I can take aerobics and weight lifting classes at so I kind of announced that for the "good of the company" meaning that keeping my health up (and I am at an age where that is important and takes effort) is in the company's best interests, so I would have to leave exactly on time in order to be able to make my classes.
I still and he knows it because he is often copied or involved, use the laptop and Blackberry to conduct company business from home most evenings and lots of weekends, so I have no guilt about leaving when they said that my work day is supposed to end.
In his case, he forwards enough silly stuff and sports scores and the like during the day that I know that he isn't spending all his time slaving away at company business, so I don't feel compelled to stay late and match his 'dedication time' to make up for his wasted time during the day.
My job is a high percentage travel and that often involves weekend travel and after hours travel so the obligation to sit at my desk when I am in town just is lost on me. I lose a lot of personal time while away on company business and I don't want to lose any more staying late just to make them think that I am dedicated.
If that shows up on my next review, then some other company is going to get a good employee.
rmw
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
The stock answer from management to engineers is "it goes with the territory".
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Sorry to get into this one so late, but it is a subject that has griped me in my thirty year career.
Companies expect us to behave totally different when representing their interests as opposed to our own.
WE are expected to give away a portion of all we have to offer (our labour), yet we are expected to safeguard the company's assets.
When dealing with contractual issues on behalf of the company, we are expected to craft or negotiate the most advantageous position for the company, yet employment contracts proposed to us are often unclear, deceitful and often illegal. (In one case, a French company I was working for, admitted that they knew that their employment contract was illegal, but suggested to "just sign it as it will not hold up in court!")
In the past, when I have had jobs with no overtime, but with all hours billed, I would work the extra hours for the "team", but only book forty.
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
- Steve
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
In my experience I never did get paid for travelling and got "it goes with the territory" answer if I queried spending a week in the office and a weekend on site and not only didn't get travel time but didn't get paid for or days in lieu for my weekends.
Interestingly, the client would be billed for travel time and expenses at the standard rates. Its a sad old world.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
This pisses me off when they make me take an agency vehicle and then won't let me drive where I want with it during "my" time that they're not paying me for (I'm talkin' movie theater, not strip joint). I'd love to sit down and have a conversation sometime with the hypothetical taxpayer we're preserving our good image for and find out exactly how they imagine we should go about our lives. But really that's another rant for another time.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
- Steve
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
If I travelled outside of normal working hours, to bad; being paid an annual salary has its drawbacks compared to hourly paid staff. Try telling them "it goes with the territory" and like as not there'd be a strike.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
- Steve
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
Than other weeks it wasn't uncommon to work 60+ hours.
This past week in my current job was a great example. The first 3 days I worked 11 hours each day. I had over 40 hours in by Thursday and on Friday I cranked early on and finished everything I needed by early afternoon.
Even so as I left work a tad early on Friday I felt guilty and as I carry a pager I fully expected to be paged.
Not sure what the best way to do it is, but our boss knows we work long hours.
I'd honestly prefer if more people were good about getting out of work on time and just worked harder during the day.
I have posted about a lazy co-worker before. He will stay there for long hours but gets very little done. I think he knows this and likes to send emails late at night.
I don't want a life like his with no family in town, little social life and very poor work ethic. I'd much rather work incredibly hard in the hours I'm there but try to limit it to not a lot above 40 hours!
RE: Uncompensated Overtime
My friend works at a place where during the summer (their busy season), they know that employees are itching for their weekends so they work 8.75 Hour days M-Th, and then a 5 hour friday.
What they dont say, but is written in the contract, is that employees are still expected to work fridays till their normal hours if needed, otherwise the hours not worked on friday come out of their vacation time if they made plans for that "supposed" time off.
Basically he describes it as a way to force employees to work a lot of extra time if needed.