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Uncompensated Overtime
7

Uncompensated Overtime

Uncompensated Overtime

(OP)
Am I alone in not understanding why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"?  It seems like from what I have read in many posts here and the attitude of many of my co-workers at my current employer that if you have chosen the field of engineering then 60 hour work weeks just come with the territory.   Now don't get me wrong, I do enjoy engineering but when it comes right down to it, I work to live, not live to work.

 Now as a salaried employee I realize that means that uncompensated overtime will be required, but I guess where I depart from what everyone else is that I feel it should be the exception and not the rule.  Yes, I realize that stuff happens and in a crunch I might have to work 50,60, or even 70 hours a week to get through the crunch, but I don't feel like I should be expected to put in these kinds of hours every week.  I do have a life outside of work you know.  

I changed jobs a few months ago.  When I was looking I was seriously in the running for another position besides my current employer.  I wanted the other job more, but the money wasn't there (They really wanted to hire me but I think they also were really looking for a less senior person to work for less money), but the real tie breaker my current employer sold me on was the four day work weeks.   Since I was giving up four weeks of vacation, I figured having every Friday off would make up for losing two weeks of vacation.  After all, I looked back over the years and I usually only take one full week off.  The rest of my vacation time went to taking long weekends throughout the year.  It seemed like a deal too good to pass up.

So I took the job and quickly found out the off Fridays were a benefit that management really doesn't want engineers to use.   We are already putting in a ten hour day M-Thurs.   Management has repeatedly told engineering in department meetings that we are expected to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week.  I really don't want to work 11.25 hour days to make it happen (frankly I'm not going to get 11 hours worth of work done anyway, my attention span just isn't that long.)   The only real way to get the hours done in a reasonable way is to work on the off Fridays like many of my coworkers do.  This aggravates me because they sold the four ten hour day work week as a benefit at my interview, but then basically tell me that if I want to keep my job I am pretty much going to have to work five days.

The reason is clear:  My firm direct bills our customers for our hours.  If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40.  The more I work, the more profit the company makes.  Now why the hell should I care?  I just don't see what it in it for me.  My impression of corporate America is that when times are good the fat cats in upper management take more than their fair share, and maybe, just maybe if you are a good little worker bee and sacrifice your life to the company, you might get thrown some table scraps from the feast, but when times are tough, it is the employees who are expected to make the sacrifices.  To me it seems very one sided, I can give 150% but yet be walked out the door tomorrow simply due to a corporate takeover or the whim of some know nothing bean counter looking to boost margins.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I cannot agree more.  There are a gazillion companies running around, professing to be 'family friendly', but that bs stops the minute you want to go home to have a family, then you discover your boss doesn't believe in it.  Salaried people are often expected to work extra hours, for no additional benefit to them.  Sometimes, the carrot is dangled of 'banking' hours worked, and then letting you take it off later...except that never happens, either.

I often take my laptop home, and work there, but on the other hand, I often take off to get my daughter to hockey practice.  People who are pushed to work 60 and 80 hour weeks for no extra compensation usually burn out, and that does no good to anybody.  As I said to one co worker, on my last day at that job, "There's always another job out there somewhere, but I only have one family, and I plan to keep it that way".

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

You are not alone in your thoughts my friend.

Corporate America loves playing up the "do it for the good of the company thing". Companies love to perpetuate the stigma that "all the engineers work 50 plus hours". Once they have that culture embedded at their work place you look like the odd man out for complaining.

Now don't get me wrong. There might be some small firms where everyone needs to pitch in or the place goes under. Also there are places that actually do reward excess overtime with a bonus at the end of the year.

Now back to your dilemma, I would be pissed if the company sold the job as a four day work week and then basically said " four day work weeks are only for slackers; you need to work more hours".

Good luck.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Don't waste your time working for these losers. Go out and get another job. Firms that do what you described have little to contribute to the world.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

You must have signed some papers when you started, maybe received an offer letter that detailed the hours and your salary?  You could try to fall back on that, but it probably won't change things.  I hold a strong belief that I am paid a salary based on 40hrs a week.  I schedule my time to get the work done that needs to be accomplished in that time frame.  There had better be a great reason (picking-up other's slack doesn't cut it) why management is asking me to stay longer than I should.  You'll probably have to start looking for work in a different industry, something new, or make peace with it.  Welcome to Corporate America.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

This kind of thing makes you wonder why everyone strives for salaried positions.  If you are going to have to put the hours in anyway and have very little job security, why not become a contractor.  At least they get paid for working overtime.  Around here, the rule of thumb is that your salary is based on 45 hours/week.  (I missed that part when I was hired on).  I think the whole salaried employment is the holy grail thing is another bill of goods we were sold somewhere along the line.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

spongebob, this type of situation was one of the things behind my previous thread :thread732-196326: Professionalism abused?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

livingston, you and I must have missed the memo - the standard work week here is also 45hrs.  

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

What are you complaining about, I heard that you mechanical guys get salaries that make hollywood actors jealous!

But seriously, I personally have no issue doing occasional overtime to meet deadline e.t.c. I consider that part and parcel of being a salary earner. I do object to companies expecting me to work more than those hours each and every week.

If you object to doing any unpaid overtime then I personally would suggest you get an hourly rate contract job where you do get paid for every hour.

csd

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I work 40 hours a week.  In the last two years I have only twice worked more than 50 hours in one week.  I like it this way.

I'm not trying to gloat or anything, I'm just saying noty all engineering jobs are 45+ hours a week.

Okay, the next bit is just an ancedote from my own company but:

All of the R&D staff and production engineers (materials engineers, process engineers, product development engineers, QA engineers, etc) work 40 hours a week, few exceptions.  The mechanical engineers (the ones who design in-house equipment) work 60-70 hours a week regularly.  Maybe it's just mechanical engineers that are being screwed...

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

We are professionals, it is not the amount of hours but the work we get done and the deadlines we meet.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Spongebob - your post makes me so angry!  Your employer is totally wrong to bill for your time and not pay you.  Is that even legal?
Anyway - when my kids were small, working like that was simply not an option.  Luckily, I worked for a large transportation engineering firm.  I was able to get my work done in 40 hours, and get it done well.  I was never pressured to work more.  If you keep the constraint that you will not work overtime (except in extreme circumstances), you will develop the discipline to plan ahead to avoid crises.
The nice thing about my former company was that everyone was paid hourly.  One could charge for as many hours as one worked.  The only time I worked overtime without pay was when I was the project manager and I knew the budget was getting tight.  Otherwise, I always charged and had everyone on the project do so as well.  We are worth it!
Your time is worth it too.  I echo the advice of others - get another job.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Some places will pay overtime to professionals, even if it isn't 1.5 times your normal rate.  I actually found one like that and haven't looked back since.  You may try to do the same.  Otherwise that's just the way of things.  It sux bad but there isn't much that can be done except to move on.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

The work always seems to be there whether you go at it 40 hours a week or more.  Management can try to establish the "expectation" that additional hours are part of being "professional", but the choice is (or should still be) yours as to overtime work.  You can easily test this by doing 40 hour weeks and seeing how your supervisor or manager reacts (if at all).  Management may also try to play off employees against each other for promotion or raises based upon "level of effort shown" vs actual results obtained.

In short, good management should be willing to work with you.  Bad management you don't want to work for in the first place.

Regards,

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I blame it on spreadsheets.  Managers now are obsessed with the numbers, hours, productivity ratios, etc., basically becoming "spreadsheet managers", and they have lost the art of "management by walking around".  The obsession with "hours worked" is the only measure they have of what's going on, since their spreadsheets CANNOT tell them how efficient each individual employee is at the actual work they are doing, because they don't use the personal touch any more.  If an employee is very effective and efficient at his job, and can get things done in the 40 hours or less, then why isn't THAT rewarded? It isn't rewarded because management is getting out of touch with what staff actually do, and the economic theories taught at MBA School teach managers to get away from the personal level and treat everything as impassively as possible, and the bottom line $$ is all that matters to them.  Pride in the product, or project is not something the spreadsheet can capture, so it's ignored.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

spongebob007
"why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"?          Actually your not, it's for the good of a few managers and owners.  It's really not much different than if you’re on your way home and a robber puts a gun in your face and demands $800.  In this case in disguised as professionalism.
  Someday when your packing your kids off to go to the state university ( after two years of local community college ) they will be putting their kids in a new convertabel to go off to an expensive private school.
  Was the job advertised as a 40 hr a week job? If so there are places like the wage and hour division of the Bureau of labor that may straighten the place out.
  If they consistently make profits from your and others donated labor, sue them.  They are behaving criminally.
  You are a professional and paid for your time and not your hours. That doesn't mean you signed on for being robbed. Check the 13 th amendment.
As I said in another post Electricians on my current job get $2,500 + for working 60 hrs.
Find another job.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I once worked for an engineering firm that sells time, not services.  Management preferred guys putting in 20 hours worth of work and show 50 hours on the timesheet over guys producing 50 hours worth of work in 40 hours.

Focus should be maximizing productivity within the chargeable hours.  Overtime should be utilized only from time to time to get over the humps in the workload (power pellets in Pac-Man?) not a routine.  If management refuses to acknowledge this, move on.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Not to gloat also,

I work as a Mechanical design engineer and normally work 40hr a week, only 2 or 3 (i forget) weeks this year did I work +50hrs. Those weeks really big projects were being finished.

Its all in your boss, my boss is reasonable, if I need to get time off for my family its not a problem, we work something out.

I can also say I have an average salary for design engineer... I guess if you are asking to be payed well above average then maybe they expect you to work well above average. Other wise notify your boss and hope he is cool with working things out.

Just my two cent, good luck

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

csd, it is one thing to put in the extra time to meet a deadline when deadlines are usually realistic, but may have slipped for some reason.  It is another thing totally to have to work the extra hours because your sales team are aquiring more work than the company can handle and new recruits are coming in at only a trickle compared to the new work.  Been like that for five years here.

Not to gloat also II, after I was here for about 18 months, word gat around to my manager that I was putting feelers out for a different employer.  He brought me into his office, offered me a demotion from engineer to designer, which allowed me to go from salaried-exempt to salaried non-exempt to qualify for OT with no change in salary.  I enjoy my work, still have "unofficial" responsibilities which are usually reservered for exempts, and have been very happy with the change.  I am also the only person here with that status (which does make me nervous when belt-tightening time comes around).

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I really hope that you guys are not wasting company time replying to this thread, or else your bosses will ask you to come to work on Saturdays also...;)

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Quote:

Oh, oh, and I almost forgot. Ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday, too...

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

... and about those TPS reports... great.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

You dont need to come in on saturdays, you should be still there after your friday all nighter...

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

yeah, you just need to pitch a tent!

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

What is the tent for? you will be too busy to sleep!

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

so you can power nap all week long, and never have to leave the office

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

thats the spirit! 23:45 days with 15 minutes for a power nap.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Just about every company I have worked was 40 hours unless something was late or had to get out right away.

My current employer is just the opposite.  Work is your life.  If you dont have enough time to get something done then you stay all night until its done.  Doesn't matter that the request was unreasonable to begin with.  Our engineers work 12 hour days.  They live here and even come in on their days off.  

To each his own if they want to work like that.  Not me!

My employer takes everything you give and leaves you with nothing.  We have to work until 5.  Now thats fine but if I worked late the previous day and want to leave at 4 the next then apparently they have a problem with me.  The door should swing both ways.  As long as I got my 40 (or 60!) in it shouldn't matter if I want to leave early here and there. If I had known it would be 60 for a normal week I would not have taken the job.

Some employers have that "you wash our back and we'll, oh!  wait! we dropped the soap! can you bend over and pick that up for us?" philosophy ;)

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

"The reason is clear:  My firm direct bills our customers for our hours.  If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40."

This is very unfair and quite possibly illegal (as others have stated). Spongebob, there are companies that bill customers 60 hours and pay their employees for the full 60. That is where you want to be, I think.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Playing devils advocate here:

I would think it unlikely that every hour you work is a billable hour.

There are also hours where you are sick, have no work to do, in training e.t.c. e.t.c.

So saying that they bill for every one of your hours is a bit OTT.

As a salary earner, you should expect to do occasional couple of hours extra time, this is just part and parcel of being a salary earner. If you dont like it, become a contract worker.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

"There are also hours where you are sick, have no work to do, in training e.t.c. e.t.c."

That's called overhead.  Someone paid a salary of $50 an hour is not billed out at $50 an hour.   IT's more likely $175-250+ an hour, not all of which is profit.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

BJC, I wish I can bill at those hourly rates for $50/hour employee.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I don't believe it's illegal (as stated by some here) to bill a client 60 hours and pay 40.  Happens all the time, for example in the case of lawyers who work for a firm. At least in the US.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Well fellows I'm sorry for your dilemma but that’s why I never wanted to be a Mechanical Engineer. I was a Union Mechanic, Supervisor and Craft Head with the County of L.A. UA local 250 for 28 years and I always got paid time and one half for over time. I know I made much more then many Mechanical Engineers and I loved every year of it as I was given all the responsibility I felt I could handle, in all the positions I had such as a Refrigeration and Steam fitting Mechanic, Supervisor of a 25 man crew where we did maintenance,service,and retrofit of old equipment. I did all of the estimating and application engineering of new chillers, boilers, cooling towers, computer rooms, laid out and ran the various crafts as we were the lead craft on most jobs. The last 5 years I was promoted to the Craft Head position where I was in charge of all the refrigeration mechanics, steamfitters, apprentices, helpers, and their supervisors. I was never bored or had someone looking over my shoulder, however, it was understood that I was responsible for the outcome on each job, that at times was quite stressful but hay you only live once so I went for the full Monty. Did I ever fail, yes, sometimes but it was nothing we couldn't fix. I always asked for other people's opinion even a helper. You never know who has a good solution for a particular problem, besides it makes other people feel good that you ask them what they think.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Work isnt your life - its what you do for a life. When you start to work lots of hours and you get paid a set rate the only people winning are the company.

Dont put up with it - get ready to move and start to look else where as working for this sort of outfit only serves to make you bitter. Why let them get away with it. You wouldnt rent out a house for four days and let them live in it for seven would you ? So why give em 60 hours and only accept 40 hours pay ? fair rate of pay for a fair bit of effort. If the company has perks and compensates you in other ways then yeah maybe but it has to be some pretty good perks to make up for time away from family.

Ive seen guys live and breathe the company, then suddenly be paid off and think why did I bother investing so much in it and nothing to show....

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I think everything has to do with equilibrium, a very dear state of physics. I am willing to give an extra effort to a determinate project on the assumption that if I need to take some time off or handle some personal issue I will not be seen as a slacker. If I scratch others' back when it's itching I expect the same treatment...I don't count my overtime to the minute, and I am sure that I give more time than I get in these deals, but I am happy with it. Also we are speaking about a couple of hours in a week, so no big deal for me.
I am used to make some overtime, but always in a project base, meaning that if I dont'need to stay, I will make my predefined schedule and that's it. Up to now, I had the luck to have managers that understood and were fair in this deal. But there is a lot of stories out there that this deal is only one way street.
This is unaceptable for me.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime


BJC,

normal charge out rate in my industry is 2.5 to 3 times the pay rate. Overheads are often equal to salaries so this does not leave a huge amount of room for profit.

My point was just that saying I will work 40 hours and not a minute more is a little over the top. A few extra hours is not going to break your back, but say 10 extra hours every week is a bit too much on current engineers salaries.

imok2 made avery good point,

There are less educated people out there making more money than professional engineers, so why should we bust our ass for the type of salaries we are getting.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Whether you'll endure 40, 50, 60 or 70 hours or work for them to get your "40 hour" paycheck is up to you.  You're not a slave.  Go get another job.

-b

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

csd72, why are less educated people making more money then PE's?

One part of my brain thinks:
Good machinists are hard to find and worth every doller?

The Other side thinks:
Why did my current employer fire about 300 union workers and move the majority of the operation to Mexico? Then re-hire only 5 non-union workers/machinists? Why are we shipping more product now?

Why do the same x-union workers complain that they lost their jobs and that manufacturing is going over seas or that the management is trying to replace them with a robot or other automated process?

Why don't the engineers here lose their jobs?

I agree with medicines philosophy

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I'm working for a power generator so we're a 24/7/365 operation. I'm employed on regular weekdays, dayshift hours. We get a reasonable, although by no means stellar, salary and benefits package compared with our peers in the industry. We work a lot of strange hours: weekends, nights, 16 hour double shifts, all day and all night now and then. I've slept on site once or twice.

I accept that 'stuff happens' wink and it usually happens at 1600 on a Friday (The 'Four O'Clock Friday Foul-up Factor') and that in our business it needs dealing with regardless of time of day or night. What really irritates me is the arrogance of our godforsaken personnel department who refuse to recognise the sacrifices we make in ruined plans and abandoned arrangements to support the business, usually at near-zero notice. They refuse to either remunerate us for our efforts or sanction time off in lieu once things are back on an even keel. In their eyes we're just regular office guys.

As a result of HR's pig-headed stance there's a lot of unofficial give and take which allows us to recover some of our lost time. We're a creative lot, us engineers. This year I've been a lot more militant in taking back my time and I don't feel guilty about doing so.

The final crime of each year perpetrated by our HR department is that they pay us a offensively small sum in return for us being on a 1-in-6 callout rota and then have the nerve to call it a 'bonus'. A bloody bonus?? Just let 'em ask if I'm pleased with my callout 'bonus'...
 
 

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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Your company's policy with regard to things like this - unless you work at a very small company where the individual can exert a large influence - is what it is, and you're probably not going to change it.

Normally, I work around 40 hours a week.  I have always been of the opinion that if I'm regularly having to do more than this regularly, then this is a manpower issue and is the company's problem, not mine.

At the moment I work around 80 hours per week, but only for 6 months of the year, and the rest of the year I don't work (I'm on a 28/28 day rotation abroad).  I regularly work more than 80 hours in the week, and this is fine too because I'm well rewarded for it (plus there's not much else to do there!).

Be bold - if you feel like you're being treated unfairly, say so.  If it comes down to it, quit, and get a new job.  If you can't afford to do this, then take it on the chin and accept that you gotta do what you gotta do.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Charging for 60 hours and paying you for 40 hours is just plain unfair.  I complained about this type of crap at a company I used to work and it got me no where.  So I quit and went to a company that pays for every hour you work (though not a premium for overtime).  Guess what?  My previous company now compensates engineers for every hour worked.

Employers get away with this crap because they can, but remember you can vote with your feet.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

One reason for working unpaid overtime is because it is not illegal to require employees from doing so.

In Ontario The employee workplace standards applying to overtime and statutory holidays EXEMPTS  "qualified practitioners of architecture, law, professional engineering, public accounting, surveying, and veterinary science; registered practitioners of chiropody (including podiatry), chiropractic, dentistry, massage therapy, medicine, optometry, pharmacy, physiotherapy or psychology;
registered practitioners under the Drugless Practitioners' Act (e.g., naturopaths, osteopaths) teachers, as defined in the Teaching Profession Act; and
students training for these professions."

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Hello PBroad,

What you wrote is absolutely true.

Just wanted to add a few thoughts...

1) There should be standards regarding the amount of overtime a Professional Engineer works (considering that the public's safety is affected by our work)
2) Another reason unpaid overtime occurs is because we allow it. Stopping this is difficult, since many people can't afford to simply quit their jobs.
3) Professional Engineers should lobby to have workplace standards regarding overtime set up (there are standards regarding how we use our stamps, why not have standards regarding the hours we work?)

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

dozer makes a good point, talk with your feet.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

There are many professions with rules about how many hours one can work because it is "unsafe" and proven that lack of sleep results in bad decisions.   

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Europe has some rules which to some extent cover engineers as I recall.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

2
Gymmeh--there are, but not enough.  Depriving medical residents of sleep is still considered to be some kind of necessary rite of passage, even though it's been demonstrated that when they're sleep-deprived they're more likely to kill us.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Kenat,

That is the 'Working Time Directive" which covers the majority of workers but not those in utilities, rescue, police, armed forces , etc. It is well-intentioned and hopefully effective: it makes it unlawful for an employer to require more than 44 hours / week averaged over a long period (3 months? Can't remember) unless the employee agrees to opt out of the limit. Unfortunately I'm outside its scope so I can't comment for sure.
 

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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I have got a manager who always works about 1-1/2 hours past end of regular work hours and the first year I played along and obligatorily stayed too.  None of the rest of the staff stays so usually it was just him and me.  At the end of their work period they get up and march out but I am aware that some of them continue to function via telephone and laptop after hours from away from the office as we all do.

We moved offices nearer to where a gym is located where I can take aerobics and weight lifting classes at so I kind of announced that for the "good of the company" meaning that keeping my health up (and I am at an age where that is important and takes effort) is in the company's best interests, so I would have to leave exactly on time in order to be able to make my classes.

I still and he knows it because he is often copied or involved, use the laptop and Blackberry to conduct company business from home most evenings and lots of weekends, so I have no guilt about leaving when they said that my work day is supposed to end.

In his case, he forwards enough silly stuff and sports scores and the like during the day that I know that he isn't spending all his time slaving away at company business, so I don't feel compelled to stay late and match his 'dedication time' to make up for his wasted time during the day.

My job is a high percentage travel and that often involves weekend travel and after hours travel so the obligation to sit at my desk when I am in town just is lost on me.  I lose a lot of personal time while away on company business and I don't want to lose any more staying late just to make them think that I am dedicated.

If that shows up on my next review, then some other company is going to get a good employee.

rmw

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Uncompensated overtime?
The stock answer from management to engineers is "it goes with the territory".

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Spongebob007,
Sorry to get into this one so late, but it is a subject that has griped me in my thirty year career.
Companies expect us to behave totally different when representing their interests as opposed to our own.
WE are expected to give away a portion of all we have to offer (our labour), yet we are expected to safeguard the company's assets.
When dealing with contractual issues on behalf of the company, we are expected to craft or negotiate the most advantageous position for the company, yet employment contracts proposed to us are often unclear, deceitful and often illegal.  (In one case, a French company I was working for, admitted that they knew that their employment contract was illegal, but suggested to "just sign it as it will not hold up in court!")
In the past, when I have had jobs with no overtime, but with all hours billed, I would work the extra hours for the "team", but only book forty.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

On a previous job with a previous employer I and a few colleagues refused outright to submit timesheets showing our true hours worked until we reached an agreement about overtime payment with our employer. We were working regular 80+ hour weeks, but we would book hours to Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday up to a total of 40 then book zero to the rest of the week. They were billing our time by the hour, then paying us for less than half of it. The client's project manager was a fantastic guy who supported our site team 100% and completely backed our little group in our efforts to get a fair deal. We all accepted working a few hours extra, but not working two weeks in one and being paid for one. We got our O/T paid - in a storm of acrimony - because the client's PM would only pay invoices where a timesheet was submitted.
 

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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Connected with the business travel thread, are people expected to travel on their own time?  Weekends too?

- Steve

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I got paid while I was traveling. Although I dont get to do it much.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Ah, good question Steve.
In my experience I never did get paid for travelling and got "it goes with the territory" answer if I queried spending a week in the office and a weekend on site and not only didn't get travel time but didn't get paid for or days in lieu for my weekends.
Interestingly, the client would be billed for travel time and expenses at the standard rates. Its a sad old world.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I get paid for travel time.  I don't get paid for time stuck in a hotel room after work hours when I can't go about my normal business.

This pisses me off when they make me take an agency vehicle and then won't let me drive where I want with it during "my" time that they're not paying me for (I'm talkin' movie theater, not strip joint).  I'd love to sit down and have a conversation sometime with the hypothetical taxpayer we're preserving our good image for and find out exactly how they imagine we should go about our lives.  But really that's another rant for another time.

Hg

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RE: Uncompensated Overtime

We are actually encouraged to travel during business hours.  I've never worked out how though.

- Steve

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I guess I should admit that I did get paid for travel time if I travelled when I would normally be at the office. But only by default, even they hesitated to deduct my salary for not being at the office during the hours they normally expected me to be there but many other employees would have cheered if they did since to many office bound employees, business travel, especially to exotic places such as an oil refinery in Siberia in the dead of winter, seemed to them to be a "jolly", a sort of expenses paid [i]holiday]/i].
If I travelled outside of normal working hours, to bad; being paid an annual salary has its drawbacks compared to hourly paid staff. Try telling them "it goes with the territory" and like as not there'd be a strike.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

HgTX, well the problem is we have gov't officials like Gov. Spitzer which spend 50k (more the avg. med. income of America) for a Night of “entertainment” at the expense of the tax payer. This results in making the little people suffer.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Not to turn this into a political thread, but since you bring it up, I am not aware of any solid information that claims that Spitzer's "daliances" were funded by the taxpayer.  I could be wrong but I haven't heard that anywhere...yet.

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

I'm about to experience another form of uncompensated overtime.  I have to spend the next two weeks in our Chicago office.  Even though I have managed to arrange most of my travelling to be during business hours smile I will have to work on Easter Monday, even though it is a holiday  here in the UK sad.  Time of in lieu?  No chance.

- Steve

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Amazing isn't it? I also have worked many salary jobs and even if we weren't exceptionally busy for the week, we were expected to be there during normal business hours

Than other weeks it wasn't uncommon to work 60+ hours.

This past week in my current job was a great example. The first 3 days I worked 11 hours each day. I had over 40 hours in by Thursday and on Friday I cranked early on and finished everything I needed by early afternoon.

Even so as I left work a tad early on Friday I felt guilty and as I carry a pager I fully expected to be paged.

Not sure what the best way to do it is, but our boss knows we work long hours.

I'd honestly prefer if more people were good about getting out of work on time and just worked harder during the day.

I have posted about a lazy co-worker before. He will stay there for long hours but gets very little done. I think he knows this and likes to send emails late at night.

I don't want a life like his with no family in town, little social life and very poor work ethic. I'd much rather work incredibly hard in the hours I'm there but try to limit it to not a lot above 40 hours!

RE: Uncompensated Overtime

Kind of an old post, but I figured Id add this:

My friend works at a place where during the summer (their busy season), they know that employees are itching for their weekends so they work 8.75 Hour days M-Th, and then a 5 hour friday.

What they dont say, but is written in the contract, is that employees are still expected to work fridays till their normal hours if needed, otherwise the hours not worked on friday come out of their vacation time if they made plans for that "supposed" time off.

Basically he describes it as a way to force employees to work a lot of extra time if needed.

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