The jet engine
The jet engine
(OP)
After reading an article in today's paper I'm interested in the answers the members of this forum give to the simple question -
"Who invented the gas turbine jet engine?"
"Who invented the gas turbine jet engine?"





RE: The jet engine
RE: The jet engine
Whittle's approach was more pragmatic as it is easier to get a radial machine to work, but the losses due to the awkward path of the gases inevitably meant that the axial approach was more efficient.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
I think the ME 262 was an impressive looking aircraft more so than the British, but I understand the engines didn't last very long.
On both sides the development was hampered by lack of support or resources, and one wonders just what would have happened if either side had put the resources behind the jet engine that it needed.
Incidentally, I believe (one of) the German test pilots was a woman.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
http://stormbirds.com/
RE: The jet engine
And that is the real rub or lesson of history; potential vs decision. Thousands of similar interesting stories.
The ME-262 was the advanced fighter but, Hitler changed it to also be a bomber which pushed back production a year.
After the war, the Russians stole jet engine technical information from the British which resulted into the Migs.
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RE: The jet engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
In reality the Russians had a some kind of official tour of the engine manufacturing works.
The story goes that at each machine tool the Russian visitors would be sure to tread in as much of the swarf as they could with their special soft-rubber soled shoes so that they could later analyse the swarf.
They needn't have bothered, as I understand it, the government sent them a complete engine some time later.
For the life of me, I can't think why they were allowed to visit the factory, let alone given an engine.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
Now they may not have had a licence to make them like the USA did but just saying they stole the technology is misleading.
I vote for Frank Whittle.
http://
I had to read the question twice though, I nearly voted for Hero as the inventor of the jet engine, but it wasn't a gas turbine. I also noticed in the link that a couple of others could claim the gas turbine, but not as a jet, however it would support my initial thinking that Frank invented the gas turbine jet engine.
Side bar, I read a series of articles in an aircraft magazine as kid about Stanley Hooker which I found fascinating. He was involved in gas turbine development from the 2nd world war till well into the 70s if not 80s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Hooker
So what did the article say to get you thinking PeterCharles?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
What's the name of the movie about Whittle. It was made in the late 40s or early 50s. I remember the scene where he throws the hankerchief up in the air and it gets sucked into the exhaust duct ( out of the building -not the jet exhaust ). Good movie considering the subject and when made.
Speaking of having CRS I remember a PBS interview 15 or 20 years ago and they were interviewing someone (I can't remember who ) who had just flow over on the Concorde. Anyway this person had struck up a conversation with the person next to them and had them autograph the seat card. The person was Frank Whittle.
RE: The jet engine
You were thinking about Hannah Reisch. I do not know if she flew Me262s. She flew lots of other stuff, much of it more dangerous, including the Me163 rocket fighter, and a manned version of the V1. She did not invent any jet engines as far as I know.
Do not forget Heron of Alexandria, who made drawings of a steam turbine back in the first couple of centuries BCE.
JHG
RE: The jet engine
As for Frank Whittle, he of course earned virtually nothing from his invention since, as being of material significance to the war effort (not that your could prove it from the enthusiasm of the War Office or the Air Force until the very end) meant he could not patent the idea and the UK government was very good at handing out the details not just to the Russians later on, but also to the US.
Twits.
Yes, he'd have every right to be bitter, he could have been a very rich man otherwise. But I understand he wasn't. I'm not sure I would have been so sanguine about it all.
Its not a good life being an inventor in the UK which makes you wonder at the level of inventiveness there is; first the "Not Invented Here" syndrome and then, if it is any good, the Government takes over the rights when it likes and gives it out to who it likes.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron_of_Alexandria
However the question was gas turbine jet engine so I figured that ruled him out.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Timelord
RE: The jet engine
and she was an ardent, non-repentant nazi to the end.
RE: The jet engine
"saying they stole the technology is misleading."
Visiting a plant and taking away chips in their shoes by design for analysis is stealing. But all sides have done that, so it's nothing new. The Bridgeport mill is another example.
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Business Page http://mech.e.tripod.com
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Motorradtraum....www.tailofthedragon.com
RE: The jet engine
The British government gave/sold them engines after the war. The Russians then produced unlicensed copies. So yeah they stole the technology but not so much by cunning espionage as by being given it on a platter.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Check the casualties here.
ht
10,700,000 Soviet military deaths vs. 382,000 vs. Great Britan. Giving the Russians a jet engine is not a bad deal. The alternative might be all our friends in the UK learning to speak German.
RE: The jet engine
I wasn't the one that brought up them 'stealing' jet technology from the UK.
The US & British Empire supplied Russia with a lot of equipment during the war, a fact often played down by the former USSR. The Allies invaded Italy largely because of Soviet pressure to open a second front and to some extent the bombing campaign was driven by Soviet pressure (especially some of the late war attacks on Dresden etc). So while I'm not sure how the balance adds up, it certainly wasn't all one sided.
As for learning to speak German, we won the battle of Britain before the Soviets were fighting the Germans.
However this is almost completely off topic. The Soviets I believe may have had their own candidate for inventor of the gas turbine jet engine.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Actually, I did not pick up on your reference to Hero. I have seen it spelled that way. It would have been so much easier if the ancient Greeks had learned to speak English, or at least used the Roman alphabet.
JHG
"If the King's English English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"
"Ma" Ferguson
RE: The jet engine
I've seen video of Whittle testing an engine and he didn't seem to have much of a safety partition to protect himself from a failure. He might have thought failure wasn't an option.
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Kena "stealing"
You have discounted my post, twice now, but you have finally agreed with me on the stealing part, good deal. So there was zero misleading on stealing. I think all of us are capable of picking posts apart, but why?!!
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Business Page http://mech.e.tripod.com
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Motorradtraum....www.tailofthedragon.com
RE: The jet engine
Greg & jmw brought it up with "stole?", I just added the fact they were provided with engines and so stole is perhaps misleading. I should have been more carefull in matching your wording of "technical information".
"After the war, the Russians stole jet engine technical information from the British which resulted into the Migs. "
My interpretation of your post was that you thought they managed to make the engins from stolen drawings etc from the UK. While they may have stolen technical information (and if so it probably helped) my point was that the provision of actual engines was probably a bigger factor. (A couple of web sites say that they were actually given a licence but I'm not sure this is true.)
I was trying to share knowledge not pick a post apart, sorry you took it that way.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
I didn't have a point.
After the war prehaps since the Russians had 10 times as many dead they thought giving them the jet was OK. Particullary if they they thought is was not the best design.
If the Russians had not put pressure on the Germans Operation Sea Lion might have materalized and/or the Normandy landing failed etc. etc.
The Russians would havegotten the jet engine somehow. They captured some ME-262s.
RE: The jet engine
http://www.4to40.com/encyclopedia/print.asp?id=37
http://www.aviation-history.com/mikoyan/mig15.html
All 3 say that the Soviets actually had a license to make the Nene, although as the Cold war had got going by the time it was time to pay the fees I don't think the UK/Rolls Royce was ever paid license fees.
(Take usual precautions as with anything found on the net)
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Churchill was one of the first to point out the USSR as the big bad after the war, doesn't mean everyone else in the UK was in agreement.
All this is especially interesting given that during the 20s/early 30s the USSR was identified as the most likely oponent by the UK in many planning exercises etc. Then again there were also plans for a war with the US during this time so who knows.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
"Stole?"
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: The jet engine
Just you didn't have access to all the thought processes in the back of my mind...
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
http://www.ngte.co.uk/
The scale of the experimental rigs to physically test what today would be simulated by a computer is amazing. It looks like a fascinating place to have worked.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: The jet engine
Sadly this and other sites around Farnborough related to the RAE etc and the historical legacy of aerospace in the UK probably aren't getting the recognition they deserve.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
Being broken up and sold off piecemeal to private industry and large chunks drooled over by housing developers and supermarket chains while anything else is "relocated".
Poor Comet too.
While the investigation team necessarily set a standard for air accident investigation, others benefited from their discoveries than De Haviland.
1954 was a bad year for a British air passenger jet transport industry and the initiative passed to the US. One wonders what could have been done to help the British industry recover?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
1) there are some tributes in the UK to Frank, but nothing major.
2) some references now say that Frank and the German von Ohain co-invented it!
3) the UK government not showing interest in the engine caused Frank to patent it, but the patent lapsed at one point as he couldn't afford the renewal fee!
4) the patent was widely circulated in Germany after copies were purchased by German diplomats.
5) as for the Russians they invented everything and copied nothing
6) the labour government after the war still believed Russia was the peoples paradise (and probably still do) so who knows what they gave away.
RE: The jet engine
RE: The jet engine
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: The jet engine
Besides, if he'd got a few hundred K (£) or better he could have bought himself a peerage.
Shameful treatment.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
Could you explain what a peerage is and how Whittle could have "bought" one, for us yanks? I never heard of such a thing.
Timelord
RE: The jet engine
There are different orders of kighthood e.g. the Order of the Garter (the top, they meet in Windsor Chapel) or a number of lesser types such as KCMG or Knight Commander of St Michael and St George.
Some where near the bottom of the Ks is he Order of the Thistle which is what Tony was rumoured to have been considered for (and despite being Scottish, was not at all happy about, especially as Margaret Thatcher became a Baroness.)
Below that are the "Gongs" like OBE (order of the British Empire otherwise known as "Other Bugger's Efforts) or MBE (Member of the British Empire; My own Bloody Efforts) and so on.
However, above knighthoods are Peerages awarded by the Queen which used to be hereditary and most/all of which are now life Peerages. (technically awarded by the Queen, but actually mostly by the Prime Minister in his New Years Honours).
This peerage used to entitle the Lord to sit in the House of Lords (till Tony Blair decided to change the system).
Actually, Tony is alleged to have discovered Life Peerages to be what is called " a nice little earner".
He, or his party, are alleged to have been receiving "Cash for Honours".
A number of his cronies and other rich folk donated huge sums to the Labour Party funds and would get Peerages, some also got posts in Government and some others got some other kind of benefit such as a lucrative contract to produce flu vacines or similar.
The only notional drawback is that this is illegal.
This isn't simply "not inhaling" but somewhat more serious.
A google for Cash for honours" should produce some background to this.
e.g.
htt
Hence, while an honest Knighthood is pretty nice to get, an Honest peerage is even better.
The point being that Sir Frank had to wait for ever to get his honest knighthood but got next to nothing financially. If he had been properly recompensed for his invention i.e. what he could have expected if he had been allowed to profit from it himself, then he could have bought himself a peerage. Except, as a man of integrity he wouldn't have even considered it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
Thanks for the explaination. It seems like "politics is politics" on both sides of the pond, somehow it seems just a bit sleazy to the common man.
Timelord
RE: The jet engine
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: The jet engine
1. Germany invented it and then started to work at BMW after the war.
2. Governments don't steal, they acquire.
RE: The jet engine
http://inv
RE: The jet engine
http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/index.html
Sorry, it has been a slow day at the office.
RE: The jet engine
Maybe this version is a little more palatable.
http:/
My Sheet metal instructor when I was in Technical college was one of the men who worked on the E28/29. He described how a large portion of the aircraft was fabricated in a shed halfway between the main factory at Brockworth and a Pub called "The Air Balloon", to keep the aircraft away from prying eyes and enemy bombers.
B.E.
RE: The jet engine
The inventiveness of man often points to a solution but the necessary engineering and science is not always available. Certainly the engineering and the science must be in place for a successful forward step.
Leonardo (who else?) had drawn up a parachute but never, apparently, tested it. The parachute had to wait for hot air balloons to give sufficient altitude with uncluttered descent for the first testing.
SO, with the jet engine, evidently the science, the engineering and the imperative were all present (wars are often the biggest spur for development) and thus conflicting claims can arise.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: The jet engine
RE: The jet engine
A.
RE: The jet engine
You could always go up Birdlip instead.
Now there's a place to get, stuck, behind a broken down lorry.
B.E.
RE: The jet engine