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First Job out of school
6

First Job out of school

First Job out of school

(OP)
I'm done with class forever in about a month from now.  I will have a BS in ME.  I have a company that tracked me down through a current employee.  They would like me to come interview for a drafter position they have which would potentially lead to a designer job.  I'm currently working as an intern at a large company.  My question is, do you think it's a good idea to start as a drafter?  Is this a spot many MEs start at?  Might be a dumb question but I just don't know any better.

RE: First Job out of school

With a BSME you should be able to get a better job than drafter with a maybe designer promise.

You should be investigating (actually you should have already secured) a full-time position with the company that you are interning with.

RE: First Job out of school

That's good question. Is the designer job an engineering position? If so it might be a good way to start.

But having said that,in the Autralian automotive industry at least, I don't know of many drafters who move on to become engineers, even if they have engineering degrees.

What do you do as an intern - drafting or engieneering, or both?

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: First Job out of school

If you have a BSME, you will have to work under a licensed ME to document your professional experience.  

Moreover, you'd better check with your local state board to see if drafting will count toward that professional time required to qualify to take the test.  

When I was in school, I did work as a drafter/designer for a local electric utility, but once I graduated, I immediately was promoted to an engineering trainee position, enabling me to qualify for the professional time I needed to obtain my Civil License.  And on from there.

Good luck.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: First Job out of school

"you will have to work under a licensed ME to document your professional experience" only if you're going for a PE.  

There are many states and industries where a PE is not required.

TTFN

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RE: First Job out of school

2
Normally, I wouldn't advise taking such a drastic step backward for a new graduate.  Graduates land in all kinds of crazy places because they really don't know what they want.

Figure out qhat you want (or at least think you want) and take deliberate steps toward that.  If you have to start out that low, be sure it's on a path that leads somewhere.

I took some contract drafting jobs after college for two reasons:
1. To make up for not doing internship or co-op (due to military obligations)
2. To get close to where I wanted to be: product design.
I knew what I wanted and took the best path available for me to get there.

batHonesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.bat
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RE: First Job out of school

(OP)
The designer would be an engineering position but it would start out with very limited responsibility.  I thought this sounded like a step backwards but thought it might be a good way to shadow experienced MEs.  I live in a city where Mechanical Engineers are not highly sought after.  The company I have my internship through can't currently hire anybody in our department.  They have pulled some strings to get my internship extended with no hard end date.  So it could be 2 weeks or 2 years but my title and $ won't change.

RE: First Job out of school

Don't continue as an intern after school's over, that is crazy.

If you do take the drafting job treat it as an engineer would - you do the calcs, you do the whole shebang.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: First Job out of school

4
You will have an engineering degree; assuming you don't have terrible grades, you deserve an engineering jog.  Don't take a "drafter" job, and don't stay on as an intern; if either of those companies don't promote you and you decide to look elsewhere, it will not look good on your resume to have either of those positions listed post-graduation.  If there is nothing else locally, you are young, move somewhere else.  

And sorry, you are not done with classes.  What university profs don't tell you:  you have now only been trained in how to become an engineer; you've got a lifetime of learning ahead of you both thru employer provided training and learning on your own; and it may be a good idea to consider getting an MS degree at some point in the future.

Best of luck

RE: First Job out of school

SWComposites nailed it in my opinion (star for you), especially about the not being done with classes part.  

BusaJames, you indicate that the drafter position may turn into a designer position which is a "true" engineering slot albeit with limited responsibilities (generally a good thing as you take your first steps into the "real" world of engineering).  First of all, determine if this is a career path you want to follow, then try to find out if you can how long this transitional period of drafter to designer might take.  If the time frame sounds reasonable, it may be worth considering.  In general you should be actively persuing all potential options/employers you can through your school's placement center so that you can choose how you start your professional career wisely.  Good luck

Regards,

RE: First Job out of school

Another Star to SWC!

Good Advice

RE: First Job out of school

Performing drafting/design task as a "fresh out of school" engineer can be a very valuable learning experience. BUT... it can also pigeon hole you depending on how your boss utililizes your abilities within your first couple of years at work.

You need to determine if the position for which you are being recruited is a "Drafting" position or an "Engineering" position.  DO NOT take a drafting position.  But an engineering position where you do some drafting at first may be a good deal.

I spent about 75% of my time during my first year at work doing CAD for the experienced engineers.  Not only did I become an AutoCAD and Microstation "wizz", but I was able to soak up knowledge from different engineers.  As time moved forward, my boss assigned me to progressively more "engineering" tasks, however I continued to perform drafting tasks for those around me (and I still do in many cases today).  My CAD skills now rival the official drafters in our company, and I do about 90% of my own drafting for projects of which I am the lead engineer or project manager.  Mainly because its faster and cheaper for me to do my own drafting than to allocate budget for drafters and/or designers who spend most of their time surfing the internet and soaking up man hours rather than actually working.

Before I was hired my "to-be" boss (during one of the 4 interviews) told me I would be spending a large amount of my time doing drafting for experienced engineers.  But he made it VERY clear that I would be progressively introduced to engineering task as time moved forward.  He was 100% true to his word, and years later my boss gets alot of bang for his buck.  

RE: First Job out of school

Doing drafting for engineers is also useful for understanding the product as well, and your boss may want that to start for a couple months.

Some companies will try to get new engineering grad's to do drafting because they can pay you less then an engineer, but have the training and background of an engineer.  So they win big because along with drafting they can have to do small mundane stuff to free up the engineers for "real" work.

I normally do my own drafting if it’s not "copy/past" because the person assigned to drafting here does not have attention to detail and is better at sleeping and playing saltier.

So, learning to draft is very helpful, but as almost everyone has said, avoid a "drafter" job title, if your title does not have "engineer" in it, their are plenty of other jobs that do.

RE: First Job out of school

Just my opinion here, but have you asked your current employer if they have plans on putting you on the payroll after your internship is finished? If they say no to the question then you are forced to find employment on your own.

I don't know if you have any loans to pay back and this can be a driving force to take the first job offered. However keep in mind a drafting job is typically much lower paying job than an entry level engineering job.

I'm not sure if your college or university offers help to graduates in finding a job. Never hurts to ask and see what they have to say.

Good Luck to you!

RE: First Job out of school

Any experience, even drafting experience, is better than no experience.

Dont spend 6 months looking for your ideal job only to have it taken from you by a guy who had 6 months related drafting experience.

csd

RE: First Job out of school

(OP)
I have probed to see what the chances of becoming a regular employee where I am currently an intern.  They cannot hire in our department right now and have no idea of when that will change.  They have already extended my internship past its original completion date to keep me around.  

I think I will talk to the perspective employer and let them know where I stand.  If they are looking for a drafter then I am not the person they are looking for.  If they are looking for a ME who can start with quite a bit of drafting and move up, then I'm interested.  I also don't want to settle for the drafter title and pay.

RE: First Job out of school

BusaJames,

You have your BE in ME, the jobs you should be looking for jobs with Mechanical Eningeering 1 title (OK PE guys I mean in the exempt industry).  Later on you should be going to Mechanical Engineering 2 then to the senior level of Mechanical Engineering.  Drafing is almost a whole other job than what ME should be doing.  Don't take anything less.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: First Job out of school

I agree with the above advice - Furthermore, keep applying for jobs. Don't limit yourself to your home area. Also, just because you're ME, doesn't mean you can't work aero either. Aero is extremely busy right now. Tip: There is a very large Tier 1 supplier in the mid-west (Wichita) which I know is hiring design engineers right now.

RE: First Job out of school

BusaJames,
While there are occasions when you must select the "available" position rather than the one you truly desire, attempt to obtain a position that provides the greatest variety of engineering experience. Think of your first job as a continuum to your education as an Engineer, with pay. This will prove quite useful in your next job search and you will be in a position to pick and choose the "right" one then, if that first job was not.

Good luck. There are many opportunities out there today - for a welcome change.

RE: First Job out of school

Why not take advantage of the interview opportunity by asking during the interview for a clear path to a full engineering position?

TTFN

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RE: First Job out of school

I must chime in again...

If you are an ME and are involved in design type work.... the ability to perform CAD drafting as an engineer is a big deal.  Companies that rely strictly on "drafters" to do ALL the  CAD/drafting are on their way out of business... Those days are over...

In today's market, companies rely on the ability of young engineers to adapt to and efficently utilize modern design software.

A Sr. Engineer (or more specifically, an "old guy" still doing straight up design) who must rely on a drafter to perform ALL his/her CAD work, is a major financial liabilty with little promise (unless he/she becomes a manager, etc..) of helping the company remain competative.

A design engineer with 5 to 10 years experience who can draft, will run circles around a 20 year engineer who needs a drafter to "do his work" when you look at "bang for buck".

I would like to note that I am strictly speaking of "design" type work.  There's gazillions of engineering positions that have nothing to do with design and where drafting has nothing to do with the job.

So... if you're an engineer who still is handing redlines to a drafter... you're probably going to be looking for work sooner or later...  Like I said above: Those days are over.

RE: First Job out of school

If you're going to take a drafting job, be sure to take one that will teach you how to draft!  At least you will come away with a necessary skill.

Drawings are not going away, but it seems that good draftsmanship is.  Computers have only made drawings worse.  Drawings are cleaner looking yet more confused and aimless.

Good drawings beget good parts, necessary for your precious design to properly function.  Poor drawings, well...

batHonesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.bat
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RE: First Job out of school

Sorry, have to chime in again (maybe a bit off topic of the OP, but relavent...)

This is my opinion (everyone has one), and its worth what you are paying for it...

If a design company is not beginning/considering to automate a large percentage of the modeling/drafting, then that company is probably on its way out of business also...

"Drafting/CAD design" as referred to in it's traditional meaning is rapidly going out of style (no differently than manual drafting is virtually a lost art now).  

Design software companies are currently in a lucrative state of competition to integrate code compliant automated design into construction drawings such that the "checker" will actually spend more time staring over a set of drawings than does the designer and/or drafter.

Given the proper input data, the ability to <click here to design the HVAC system> or <click here to design the electical system> (complete with all the calculations of course) of any given new building is either already at hand, or its just around the corner...

Getting back to the OP... be sure to check out what kind of plans the company has for the way it does design/CAD work.  If engineers are handing off traditional redlines to drafters - then that company will either be laying off folks in the near future and/or filing Chapter 11 long before you could ever have a career there.

RE: First Job out of school

Quote (Senseless):

If a design company is not beginning/considering to automate a large percentage of the modeling/drafting, then that company is probably on its way out of business also...
Not in in my children's lifetime.  Coherent automated drawings just don't happen, except on Powerpoint presentations in sales presentations.

Quote (Seneseless):

Given the proper input data, the ability to <click here to design the HVAC system> or <click here to design the electical system> (complete with all the calculations of course) of any given new building is either already at hand, or its just around the corner...
Riiight....  Who finishes the 30% of the design that the computer defaults got wrong?  Who checks the results?


RE: First Job out of school

TheTick,

If you read my post above you will note that I state the checker will spend more time on the drawing set than does the designer when considering an automated design.  So to answer your question about who checks the results, well... the checker does.

And if you really think design automation is generations or even a single generation away from becoming mainstream, then well, that is your opinion...

I wonder how many guys years ago said things like: "Oh, the idea of 100 Megabit/s ethernet will never happen - or - 1 Gig Ethernet will never happen - or - 10 Gig ether will never happen - or - my car will never be linked to a satallite - or - what do you mean robots will build cars? - or - no one will ever crack the code to the entier human DNA sequence".  

All these things I just mentioned did not only happen in a generation, most occured within a small fraction of a generation.

As for drawing automation... I know that it works at least on a small scale because I have personally written the code that does it, and I use it routinely at work to assist with some of the mundane and time consuming CAD type of tasks.  And yes, there are some CAD operators out there who are a little angry because they don't get to spend 2 days doing something that takes me 2 minutes.  In fact, about a year ago, I was asking our CAD operator to assist me with coming up with ideas of how to integrate and automate our design processes to elliminate some of the mundane and time consumming tasks.  He laughed at me, refused to help me, and of course mouthed off about how it could never happen.  Even his boss (not me) instructed him to assist me.  He still refused, and was later fired for an unrelated reason.

So just for the record about drawing automation... it IS happening and the sky is the limit on how far it will go.

RE: First Job out of school

(OP)
Thanks to all who have replied.  I completely agree that I am not truly done with classes.  I know that if I stop learning, especially in this field, I might as well retire because I'm done.  

I only meant that I am done with college level, generic classes.  I actually look forward to classes that are carreer specific.  

In refference to my action plan, I will sit down for an interview and make it very clear that I am not a drafter and don't plan to be.  If they have an ME position that happens to have a lot of drafting at first I am interested.  I think this will actually help the transition phase and will help me become aquainted to the company and what they do.  Plus, all interviews are a learning experience.

RE: First Job out of school

Drafting is a good way to get your foot in the door if the company allows you to grow.  If you end up in the right situation you will quickly start learning by interacting with the experienced engineers, make sure you ask questions that will help you advance.  However, be ware that Drafting as a profession is a dying function.  Long gone are the days where a person can focus entirely on drafting for a full shift.  Engineers now days have to be able to model their ideas, and given the advancement in software development i think it's a necessity for companies to remain competetive.

You should be able to use your intership experience as leverage to get your foot in the door of a good engineering job.  Consider moving out of your confort zone, you never know what opportunities are outside your area.  I left the Bay Area (CA) for a job opportunity in Washington DC (3000+ miles) and have not regret it a bit.  I got a better job that i could ever have gotten in California.

RE: First Job out of school

Just curious. I hear so many people say that "There are not many jobs where I am.", or "No good jobs where I am." ... followed by "What should I do?"

Why not move to where the jobs are? This is the solution  that many before have embarked upon.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: First Job out of school

So my input:

Drafting (real drafting as in product definition be it hand drawings, 2D CAD, 3D CAD with 2D drawings or even MBD) is underrated.

I'd say having some drafting experience could be very usuefull, though it will be of most use if it's real drafting with familiarity with drawing standards, GD&T etc.

However, as others have said, be carefull not to get pigeon holed into just being a CAD monkey.  CAD monkeys who know all the buttons but don't really understand what they're trying to achieve are of little to no use, especially in a more engineering role.

Make sure you have the clear path to a full Engineering position as others suggest.  In fact, is there any reason why the position is not 'Design Engineer'?  Here in the US Drafter or Designer seems to generally imply no BS in Engineering.

Also are you talking about exempt or non exempt (for mechanical typically areas like HVAC)?  Either way PE may be usefull in the future and at least in CA time spent drafting doesn't count to PE which is one of several things keeping me from getting PE.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

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