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TimmyH76 (Structural) (OP)
27 Nov 07 11:24
This is a general question for practing structural engineers....Do you require sealed shop drawings for all prefabriacted componets on a building you are the E.O.R.?  I'm thinking of wooden trusses, timberframes ect.  Where does the architect fall in the scheme of things if they are required...what if this shop drawing review wasn't in the contract?  Thanks.
Lion06 (Structural)
27 Nov 07 11:32
We typically require signed and sealed calcs with the shop drawings.  This is usually done as a performance spec.  If this review wasn't in the contract and it is critical to the overall function of the structure... I would still want to review them, I wouldn't know how to go about requesting payment.
connect2 (Structural)
27 Nov 07 17:30
We require sealed shop drawings if we are EOR, we do not require calc's with the submision.  If we notice something we have a problem with, we phone.  If someone asked me for my calc's with the shop drawing submission, I'd likely tell him to 'Piss Off', and if the requirement to 'Submit Calculations' was in the tender package I wouldn't participate.
DonPhillips (Structural)
27 Nov 07 17:37
As a plans examiner, I require the shop drawings to be sealed and submitted sometime before full plan approval is granted.  In addition to examples given, I looking for steel connections, curtain wall designs, windows, etc.

Don Phillips

connect2 (Structural)
27 Nov 07 17:42
By the way the Architect always falls out of harms way with respect to the EOR.  A question for the Insurer lawyers no doubt, but is my experience.  Architects are all over the place.  To give my opinion on the other part of the question, don't depend upon them (Architects or definetly their Insurers lawyers) to back you up.
Lion06 (Structural)
28 Nov 07 5:52
Are you talking about shops for items you design like the main structural steel?
Why would you not want calcs for something that someone else is designing?  Ultimately, it is your responsibility if anything goes wrong since you are the EOR.
We require calcs to review for everything we don't design in-house.
connect2 (Structural)
28 Nov 07 16:49
The responsibility I understand, but I have never requested nor reviewed another engineers calculations as part of the shop drawing review process.  The day you request calculations you may as well just have done the design yourself.  We have had clarification requirements and subsequent changes in the submission phase.  We will submitt our calculations at the request of Building Officials only.  Structural Steel except for special connections we design the fabricator submitts sealed drawings we review the drawings ask for clarification as required.  Exactly what and how do you review the submitted calc's?
Lion06 (Structural)
28 Nov 07 17:01
We don't review calcs for the steel (except for connection calcs).
I'll give a couple of examples.
1. For metal studs - We always write this as a performance spec.  The engineer that designs them submits shops and calculations to us.  We review the calcs for proper loading, proper intent (just because a metal stud is crossing a beam doesn't mean the beam was designed to clip back to it and cause weak axis bending).  We also check for coordination between their calcs and drawings.  If they have 4 different base connections at different jamb studs we check to make sure the capacity for the connection provided is greater than the reaction (you would be surprised how often this is not the case).

2. For stair shops -  We again check for proper loading.  We have got many stair shops where they cut the string at a kink and don't provide any reinforcement where the cut section is inadequate.  Again, check for coordination items, check connections to the main structure.

3. For curtain wall shops - We check for loadings, make sure the correct GCpi was used.  

There are definitely things to review in the calcs
connect2 (Structural)
28 Nov 07 18:00
If you review calcs yes '... there are definetly things to review ...', infact I would sugest that there is everything to review.  You must then do the design for a second time.  It would appear to me that you do a 'selective' review.  What if you have missed an arithmatic error?  By asking for calc's have you then implied that you will check all the cal's, or do you specify that you will check only certain calc's or components of the design?

archeng59 (Structural)
3 Dec 07 14:08
I require sealed and signed shop drawings for engineered wood & cold-formed metal trusses, bar (open-web steel) joists, metal building framing.

I always get sealed and signed drawings for metal building framing.

I never get sealed and signed drawings for bar joists.  I've tried in total futility to get them.

I sometimes get sealed and signed shop drawings for trusses.  It depends on the fabricator.  Most provide the seal and signature if they provide trusses for commercial project.  Fabricators who do mostly residential rarely provide sealed and signed shop drawings.
swivel63 (Structural)
3 Dec 07 14:14
yea, signed and sealed calcs.  on everything.  at least that's what my experience is.  

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