Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
(OP)
I've heard of mechanical contractors who have in-house PE engineers. Obviously they are there to design and stamp work received for the contracting company.
Is this considered a conflict of interest?
I can see how this is greatly beneficial to a contracting company to have in-house engineers but I also wonder if that engineer could be completely objective.
Is this industry standard and considered acceptable? I'm still fairly new to the contracting and engineering world so I'm soaking up all I can get.
Thanks.
Is this considered a conflict of interest?
I can see how this is greatly beneficial to a contracting company to have in-house engineers but I also wonder if that engineer could be completely objective.
Is this industry standard and considered acceptable? I'm still fairly new to the contracting and engineering world so I'm soaking up all I can get.
Thanks.
E.I.T.
Atlanta, GA





RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Are you assuming all contractors are unethical?
Are all engineers who work for engineering firms ethical?
I don't see how you can ask it it's unethical.
Having worked for a contractor I can say that I have never felt like my ethics were compromised.
The advantages of design-build are speed and quality of the design.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
TTFN
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
An employment or contract is neither ethical or unethical.
The actions of people are ethical or unethical.
Oh, by the way, the world of contracting and engineering are not different worlds - they are one in the same.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
I believe that it was the right move, even if for some of us the question might be a little bit unnapropriate.
Well, my oppinion seconds of the colleageus that already replied.
You cannot assume a conflict of interest in this case, you have to assume that persons are professionals. Also, in another hand, being the PE responsible for what it stamps, it is in his own interest to cope with the codes and standards.
If you assume that there is a conflict of interest in this case what do you say about a doctor that works in an insurance company approving reimbursements to patients or a teacher that recomends his own book to the class? You see, conflict of interest is a very thin line...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Like I said, I'm new to the practice of engineering so I'm still trying to figure the fine line of ethics in this business. Don't be offended, there's no need to be...
My main concern stems from this:
Engineers who are working for a contracting company who might cut corners, make a less than ideal design, all because the boss is breathing price, price, price down their necks. For instance... a contracting company has already bid a job on a design-build project, then they take it to their engineer to be designed and the engineer realizes there isn't enough money in the bid to do the job properly. He tell the boss to get more money from the client, and you all know how much bosses like to give away money. Does he make a sub-par design instead? One that might work, but sub-par nonetheless.
Obviously it is up to the engineer to stand firm in what he consideres acceptable and hopefully won't be influenced to make a wrong decision for fear of his job.
For those of you who say you do work or worked for contracting companies, what do you do in a situation like that?
This is mainly a question for firms that are contracting companies first, that provide their own engineers for design-build.
Thanks.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Playing "what-if" is the second most popular indoor sport in the world.
I'll give you one that I have seen more often than your hypothetical case.
What if your working for an engineering firm and they bid ( yes- they bid jobs just like contractors) a job for less hours than it takes to do it. So you get the job to do and to do it right would normally take 3000 MHs. Your boss says " We have only got 2200 MHs to this job." So what do you do? a.) Do a less than adequite job and let the contractor figure it out ( that happens enought that many contractors have engineers on staff to finish half designed jobs). b.) Work free on Saturdays and a couple of hours extra everyday to get it done. You may have to convince others that work for you to do the same thing. You can appeal to their professionalism and convince them that it's in their best intrest and/or promise comp-time, promotions etc. c.) Tell your boss that that's not enough time and it's not going to work that there is "not enough money in the bid to do the job properly".
I have see enough of item "a" and "b" to know that "c" is the right answer.
Contractractors know more about engineering than engineers know about contractors. Contractors will generally listen to an engineer more attentively than another engineer. They may ask me to look for another solution, say "try this" etc. but in the end I have never had to compromise the integrity of a job. I can't say the same for engineering firms ( that's why I don't work for them.)
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
If I decided to make a plate a few 1/16s thicker just for the heck of it, the contractor called me on it. If there was not compelling reason to have a thicker plate, I had to make it thinner. If there was a good reason, like fewer splices, maybe the plate would stay thicker.
I found this to be a great experience, once I got into the rhythm of working with the contractor this way. There were really no ethical issues, but sometimes there way yelling when I had bad news for the contractor.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Ideal. Now that is a wonderful word.I think most designs are less than Ideal. Except maybe government work with unlimited budgets.
If it works, if it is legal, if it is ethical, within budget
Then it's ideal enough for me.
I'm sorry, take me with a grain of salt.
I have a very low tolerance for "what if" questions of ethics.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
You can not review and stamp items designed by someone not under your direction or supervision.
I do not see how working under these conditions is not considered ethical whether you work for a consultant or a contracotr. The contractor should not be stamping someone elses design work under any circumstances nor should he require his engineer to stamp someone elses work. Stamping work that you did not do and out of your field is a good way to loose a license.
Ken
Ken
KE5DFR
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
However, it is VERY common (and actually the norm) for design and/or design/build companies to employ and utilize PE's. If Company A is under contract with Company B to design [whatever...], (and assuming the design requires a P.E. stamp) who else (by law) can stamp the design besides the design contractor?????
Also... using "contracting" companies for design and/or design/build services is as industry standard as it gets...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
If this is the case, the contractor will eventually have to have a Mechanical Enginer do the work so that he can bid the project. If the contractor does a lot of this type of work, it may pay him to permanently hire a Mechanical Engineer as an employee to do the work.
I do not see a problem here or any conflict of interest.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
An engineer who is a direct employee of the contractor has the primary responsibility of making money for the contractor. As a result the engineer is often under pressure to produce a design that is right to the numbers.
This pressure reduces the engineers ability to exercise judgement. If bolts with threads included in the shear plane will check, then the engineer can't exercise judgement and call for custom bolts that will exclude the threads from the shear plane based on his or hers experience that the threads will cut into the plates being attached.
Engineers who are employed by the contractor are also pressured to design as the engineers do, who work for the contractor's competition. If the competition is resisting all the wind load in a multi-story wood framed building with the drywall then the contractor will expect drywall to be used instead of plywood on the shearwalls.
A final difference is that conservative engineers generally don't remain employeed by contractors very long. In general the designs of conservative engineers will be more expensive.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
I disagree. An engineer is ethical or not, based on his actions, not who he works for.
What you are saying, in effect, is that "ALL" contractors are unethical. I personally find that offensive. For anyone to make such a blanket implication seems unethical - even prejudiced?
To say such and such a company plays it tight is one thing - if you can prove it. To say "contractors" play it tight, without any proof, is prejudicial in my view.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Possibly
"A professional engineer who is a direct employee of the contractor has the primary responsibilities of making money for the contractor whilst ensuring that the design is safe and meets the customer's requirements."
Would be closer to my understanding.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
In these times is it ethical to design with no concern for use of material and energy?
The engineer is the ultimate economist. Squandering the earths resources in conserative design is unethical.
I have worked with contractors who pressured for economical design. Sometimes they had suggestion that were good and I changed my design. Sometimes they suggested ideals that would use less material and/or be faster. I never changed my design.
I have never had to change a design because of pressure from a contractor. When I drew the line it stood.
Ashereng. Your right on. If some people think contractors are so crooked I would advise them to get out of the business. Engineers and contractors are the industry a lot of us are in. If it felt that dirty to me I would get out.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Since seismic codes do not ensure zero risk, one could argue that the seismic codes themselves are not ethical, could one? Seismic codes do not ensure no loss of life, or even no injuries; the only assurance is that the building will not collapse under the current baseline survivable earthquake. A new earthquake often raises the survival threshold, as in the case of Loma Prieta. Did that make the prior codes unethical because the 880 freeway collapsed during the Loma Prieta quake and killed 40 people?
Ethics is often bell-shaped, and only those that are the 3+ sigma guys would be "reasonably" branded by the rest as being unethical.
Now, consider the multi-ton slabs hung with epoxied bolts in the Big Dig. It was stupid, but yet to be proven unethical.
TTFN
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
I believe you are getting onto the "reasonable and prudent" range here, which should leave it up to the judgment of your peers.
Show me a 12 person jury that was ever made up of 12 structural engineers. So goes the "peer" theory. Ain't justice great?
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Specifically:
If a death is valued at $4E6
I sell 1E6 cars per year, for 4 years. The car will last for 10 years.
I can fit a steel plate to the car which will save one death per year, over the total life of the model. What is the maximum the steel plate should cost for an ethical engineer to fit it? Does the answer depend on whether the engineer works for a consultant, or for the manufacturer, or for the government?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
I don't think that RARSWC is making a blanket statement about contractors at all. The contracting company I work for is very ethical and honest in their business, however, we are driven by out-doing the competition and making money (what contractor isn't?). If we bid a job and then design it, the design is expected to fall within the budget. If it doesn't, that's a problem with the numbers guys.
It seems we can't always have the most conservitive design (as RARSWC pointed out) if it must fall within our bid price. And in the HVAC/R business sometimes a conservative approach is an efficient approach that is best for the environment (as BJC pointed out) but we can't do that because it doesn't fall within our budget.
I know some contrators are crooked and will do whatever it takes to make a buck, but I also know that a lot of them aren't. And hopefully the one's that aren't crooked are the only ones hiring engineers. So really, it seems to me, that it completely depends on the company, who they hire, and how they have leared to make correct competitive bids.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
This topic really depends on a lot of variables, location being the biggest one. The size of the job and the experience of all involved. From the contractor’s side, rework is not free, if an inspector comes to the sit and tells them something FUBAR.
The situation I have seen working as/for a contractor. Is that the structural design may not be correct, and the supervisor in the site catches it. Like GrayBeach said, some of those guys know their job to a 1/16th of an inch.
There are a few things that can happen
1) They have to send the drawing back through the consulting firm, the architect looks at it which then gives it to a PE…mean while the contractor is working hard to keep his boys busy and after a day three of the firm sitting on the drawings, the supervisor needs to give the boys half the day off to save money in labor.
2) The contractor can give the drawing to their in house engineer who knows Most/All the details of the job already; get the drawing backs that afternoon with the design changes and keeps the job rolling.
(Obviously simplified for this example, but you get the point)
I have never worked for a contractor that would knowingly break the law, and often knew the jobs better then some of the engineers. Everyone tries to say money.
Like Eddy side, NYS has a lot of laws and inspectors to keep people honest –and a lot of lawyers!
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
I have seen this situation more than once and in 99 % of the cases it was engineering that opened the moneybag for the contractor.
It's ultimately the owners fault, they start out by hiring the cheapest engineer they can find. They don't realize the cheapest thing you can have on a job is good engineering.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
With Contractors, as well as Engineers, very very few are crooks. I graduated in 1978 and have work with quiet a few contractors large and small over the years. Of those contractors I never found one I thought was crooked or even dishonest. And yes I have seen contractors add water to increase the slump of the concrete they were pouring or float rebar into footings.
Regarding ethics, a contractor who puts pressure on his engineer to design right to the numbers or to follow design practices of the competition, is probably not acting in an unethical manner. He or she is not asking the engineer to violate the design code. The contractor would only be acting in an unethical manner if he or she knew that the design practice of his competition violate the code and he or she was pressuring the engineer to follow that design practice.
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
sunny and 73*F here
RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
If the PE acts correctly, and his employer knows that he's not being overly conservative, then all should be copacetic. If neither trusts the other to attain the proper balance, then it's time to get a new employer.
TTFN
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RE: Engineer Working For Contractor Ethics...
Consider this, though. A consultant is hired at a set fee to perform a certain design. He can do a more thorough job and take longer, or less thorough and make more money per hour. Isn't that a conflict of interest at least equal to that found in contracting? Can we assume that all consultants must be unethical because they must all cut corners on their designs to make more money?