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Limiting Engineering Enrollment
4

Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Limiting Engineering Enrollment

(OP)
The report summarized below contradicts the rumors that are frequently circulated in the media regarding anticipated shortages in qualified engineering candidates for industrial positions in the United States. Such rumors lead me to wonder why this topic has received so much attention when I personally have seen little evidence of it during the course of my career. When it comes to mechanical, electrical, and civil engineers I have seen no evidence of a shortage in the talent pool over the course of the last 15 years. If anything, I have seen a surplus of engineering candidates. Disciplines such as metallurgical engineering are the exception rather than the rule - qualified candidates in such specialized areas are usually difficult to find. North of the border in Canada there are degreed engineers driving cabs today because they can't find engineering positions. So who stands to profit from such rumors? The colleges who educate engineers need to fill the seats in classrooms, so they would benefit by enrolling more students. But I think that the companies who hire us would stand to benefit a great deal more since the availability of a larger talent pool would tend to keep wages down. In other professions such as medicine it's interesting how the AMA appears to have a hand in limiting the enrollment of MD candidates each year to keep the number of medical doctors from outpacing demand. Perhaps engineers would benefit from such a practice as well. If we could do it, do you believe that we would all benefit from limiting the number of engineering candidates that are allowed into a given program of study each year? I'd like to know what your thoughts are on this subject, both positive and negative.


Quote:

Study Questions U.S. Shortfall in Math, Science
EE Times (11/06/07) ; Riley, Sheila

The common belief that U.S. students are falling behind in science, technology, and engineering, eventually leading to a worker shortage crisis, is mistaken, concludes an Urban Institute report, which says that not only are U.S. students doing well in science and technology subjects, but that the U.S. is educating a sufficient number of scientists and engineers to maintain its current global competitiveness. Urban Institute senior research associate Hal Salzman, who co-authored the report, says international tests ranking students, which frequently show that U.S. students are weak in math and science, are flawed. The study found that over the past 10 years U.S. students took more math, science, and foreign language courses than in previous decades. In 1990, only 45 percent of high school students took chemistry, but by 2004 the percentage of students taking chemistry rose to 60 percent. The percentage of students who took three years of math rose from 49 percent in 1990 to 72 percent in 2004, and the percentage of students taking four years of math rose from 29 percent to 50 percent. Salzman says the education systems in Japan, Singapore, and South Korea do lead to better test scores, but that does not necessarily lead to better jobs, a better economy, or more innovation. Salzman highlights the fact that Singapore is promoting a national "creativity initiative" because the Asian city-state's leaders realize the need to de-emphasize its narrow educational approach. Center for International Industry Competitiveness at the University of New Haven director George Haley says that testing a broad selection of countries puts the United States at a disadvantage because in the U.S. poor-performing students reduce the U.S. average, but in other countries those students would not be eligible to take the tests.

Maui

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I know all sorts of firms in my area that have been recently having a difficult time finding engineers (structural).

In fact, if you look back at the historical attitudes of engineering firms back in the 1960's and 1970's there was a huge number of candidates looking for work, with few jobs. (I know, I was looking in 1982 even and had a hard time getting hired with an MS degree even).

Some senior management persons I know just don't quite understand today why they need to pursue and treat their employees well.  Some firms I know have gotten quite hurt by large numbers of employees quitting and moving on due to an expectation that the employees should be "damn glad they have a job".  Instead, these employees have two or more offers to choose from.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I see no evidence either and metallurgist are few and far between.  Maybe they mean they can't find qualified candidates at the prices they want to pay.  

Who stands to profit????  Don't know, but the media has always spun a bunch of crap (from time to time) as far back as I can remember, sometimes I have to turn off the news just to be a regular person.

The limiting thing is probably due to the amount of candidates.  I don't  know the extent of control that is being used but doctors are directly related to public health and maybe that is the justification.   If a field is to have a limit, start with lawyers.

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RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

All facts and statistics are two different things; the news is good at creating a nice gray area between the two. Then taking conclusions from statistics and generalizing it for the whole country and displaying the conclusions as facts.

In this area there seems to be a surplus of engineers.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

My opinion with no factual basis: There is no shortage of structural engineers rather there is a shortage of structural engineers willing to work for mediocre salaries.  I personally know of thirty available structural PEs willing to relocate for 105/hr (and a modest benefit package).  If your billing rates can not support this salary level then the fault is in the billing rate, not the salary level.  Raise the rates to winnow out the low dollar clients and raise salaries to attract the mercenary technical experts.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

There are stories of engineers in Canada that are under-employed, however there is also a demand for engineers in Canada.

The problem is that being an engineer consists of more than technical skills.  An ability to communicate is essential, and there is a perception is that engineers that immigrate to Canada cannot effectively communicate with clients or staff.  This creates a reluctance in hiring managers to take on staff with foreign credentials.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

civilperson,

agree 100%. In my experience, when things have been so busy that some people cant find an engineer to do their work some guys are still undercutting others for work when they should be raising fees. The same guys complain that new engineers are asking too much.

csd

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I too am concerned about the supply of engineers when considering our society’s view of the problem ?  The following link “The Knack” should shed some light on this very serious issue.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmYDgncMhXw

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Don't know if it's different in the States but I know in the UK a lot, and I mean a lot, of the people I was in aerospace/aeronautics with at university didn't go on to be employed in Engineering.  A lot went into IT/programming or similar and I think quite a few into management consulting type places.  I know some mechanical guys who did similar.

I remember one recruitment fair type event that was basically a management/consultant firm looking to hire grads.  They actually preferred engineers and would take engineer grads (especially from aero) with lower grades than from many other courses, including management/business degrees!

My course also had around 10% drop out rate.

I wonder if this and all the other factors is taken into account when people crunch these numbers and come up with ideas for limiting enrollment.

Don’t get me wrong, if it means I get more money I’d have to be interested in the idea but I’m not sure it would work.  For the example of Doctors, the large majority of people that take Medicine at uni go on to be Doctors as far as I know.  Where as for Engineering I’m not sure this is the case.

As to who benefits from ‘too many’ engineering enrollments.  Well as suggested it’s the schools and the potential employers.

Although, can you really have too much of a good thingwinky smile

Now limiting lawyers, there’s an idea although it may accentuate the trend in the UK & US that you get the defense you pay for!  Limiting how many members of parliament/government can be lawyers though, now that’s an idea I’d vote for!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I don't believe that journalists understand anything that they write about, first off. After a quick perusal of a study of some sort or other, most journalists are out writing about how the sky is falling due to one cause or another, without understanding the science or phenomenon behind the report. So with that said, I also don't believe anything about engineering shortages. I also believe that it is more a matter of employers not finding cheap help.

The only ones to blame for this situation is engineers, in my opinion. We need to police our ranks, we need to keep any warm body from being called an engineer without proper credentials, we need to recognize that engineers are tradesmen more than professionals and we need to unionize.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Unionize?  I worked for a while in a union job in a drugstore.

If the engineering union was anything like that one, I'll pass thanks.

If it's like my wifes though (social work through the school system) I'd consider it.

$1 a month is worth it for what she gets (no cost medical, retirement, job security (3 acts of god to get fired once through probation), time & half compensation for extra time, as much vacation as a european and more paid holidays...  Just a shame her gross is about 1/2 minewinky smile)

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

They had the author of that study on NPR last Friday with Craig Barrett of Intel providing counterpoint.  Barrett kept saying things like "Why would the government be issuing so many H1B visas if there were people willing and able to do the work here?"  He also made a point of saying American students and workers are average and that average isn't good enough.  

American students can be better than average, but unless they're willing to work longer than average hours for less than average wages, business men like Barrett will never be happy with the labor pool.  They'll keep complaining about engineering shortages while engineers keep taking sales  and management jobs.  

Meanwhile, many foreign PROFESSIONALS are willing to trade long hours and poor wages for the visa and ticket to America.  Salaries continue to rise slower than inflation and pretty soon we will be considered a trade instead of professionals, complete with exorbitant school loans and lower middle class quality of life.

And don't get me started on unions.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

(OP)
Youngturk, the comment made by Craig Barrett is similar to comments that many CEOs have made regarding available engineering talent, yet I personally haven't seen evidence of these shortages. I believe that it boils down to what they are willing to pay you to do the job. In your example Mr Barrett would stand to gain a significant economic advantage by hiring engineers with H1B visas due to the lower wages that they would be willing to accept. These same individuals would find it difficult to job hop because of the restrictions that are placed on them by their immigration status. A talented, low wage employee who is essentially captive for a period of several years is attractive to certain employers, and I can think of several companies that hire such individuals for exactly these reasons. Unfortunately it also drags down the average wage for the engineers who are already here, not to mention the increased competition. I wonder if the goverment is willing to grant a larger number of H1B visas because of the news stories that are being written about the supposed shortage of engineering talent. Perhaps lobbyists also play a role in this. It has the hallmarks of manipulation, and I would not be surprised to find that it is being propagated by the individuals who stand to benefit the most - the comapnies that we work for.

Maui

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I couldn't agree more.  If you didn't pick it up from my previous post, let me be more clear: I wanted to reach through the phone and strangle the man.  

I was unable to get work as an engineer for six months after graduating with a 3.5 gpa from a good university.  Many other people in my graduating class moved on, either to other careers or graduate school, and not necessarily engineering grad school.  Many of these people wanted to be engineers, but found it just wasn't happening.  I currently work with a group of three people in the company with my specific discipline.  A recent one-week posting for a position in the group netted more than ten qualified applications.  Shortage shmortage.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

We should also not forget that Manufacturing has left this country by and large, reducing the need for Engineers. Bring Manufacturing back, and you would need more Engineers.
I saw somewhere that in a few years, China will be graduating more Engineers each year than the US will produce children. Wonder where the Manufacturing has gone?


As for a Union? No thanks, I will bargain for myself.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

(OP)
Pat, take a look at the later posts in this thread for information about the number of engineers graduating from China and India versus the United States: thread730-141668: America's High-Tech Quandary

Maui

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

To further Kenat's point, maybe half the people who went through the same civil program I did are now employed as engineers. A few went into software design and a large number went into project management.

There are a few firms known locally for hiring recent immigrants for lower wages than anyone else will work for, but I doubt they save money in the long run. People know the reputation and charge more to work on projects those firms are involved in. The lack of experience and knowledge of local codes and local expertise often causes problems.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

The offereing of a H1-b visa to a foreign grad student  may be roughly equivalent to offering a US citizen a $100K signup bonus. There are many higly qualified foreign engineers that equate getting a H1B with greatly increaisng their earning capacity and ability to provide support to their parents that remain overseas.  

An even greater benefit to the US employer is that the worker is nearly indentured ; it is difficult for that worker to move to other US companies prior to obtaining a "green card" permanent resident status. So, during his 7-10 yr technical  peak period after graduating, the H1B worker must remain at the same employer. By having the INS drag their feet on providing green card permanent status, they effectively extend the terms of indenture.


But , once the geren card is issued, it "sayonara" , baby.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

The only benefit that I see from a H1B visa is that your pulling from a larger talent pool, the rest of the world. The reason the talent pool in the states is so small is that engineers get paid in most places as well as HVAC technicians and in a lot of cases worse than electricians. The talent will appear if the wages are there.  

There are maybe a few area's that need foreign talent to break new ground. For the other 98% of engineering, very little new ground is broken.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I am questioning the morals more and more of rich countries taking the best and brightiest from the poorer countries through these skilled migration schemes.

For example, the US has one of the highest number of doctors per capita but they are still attracting more from poorer countries such as india that have only a tenth the number of doctors (per capita).

Decreasing the number of american born graduates may just end up with the same situation as the doctors - an American born one is a rarity in these parts.

csd

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Hmmm...I often think of that of how we take the best from second / third world countries, but the other side of the coin is that these people made the decision to move vs the USA taking them by force.  Engineers, Doctors, Scientist, ...etc should make that moral decision to stay in their country to make things better there.  Kind of giving back to the community that raised them.  However, I have been seeing some trends at networking events (thru gossip and catching up with old friends) of how many engineers are now going back to their home country because now all of the work is there now.  The money they make there is stil way less what they make here, but the economy there is so low, they are stil living like kings.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Twoballcane,

Some good points.

I may seem to contradict myself now by saying that I am actually against too many barriers for migrations.
having worked in three countries I ahve taken good advantage of these possibilities.

What I am against is when it becomes long term policy to make up for particular skills shortages by migration. This is a double edged sword it both lessens demand for local talent and lessens supply in the countries where these people come from.

It is really a matter of balance.

 

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Not to hi jack the thread, but in a way the second and third world countries are benefiting from this. The people who work in the states send back money and provision (caned food, cloths, shoes, etc) back to there families, so some of the USA money is being spent in other countries.  I am a first generation born here in the states.  My uncle and aunts are made of doctors, nurses, chemist, pharmacist, who got their education from their mother land and back in the late 60s came to work here.  It has been a somewhat tradition to pack boxes with stuff from the nickel/dime stores and ship it to other family in the mother land.  Also, wire money to the mother land so they can spend it there.  So if you want to think about it this way, it is a trickle down affect (remember the Ragan days).  So second and third world countries may be loosing some professionals, but gaining a revenue stream back to their country.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Twoballcane,

You make a good point but, handouts dont solve poverty, only a stable economy can solve poverty. You need professionals working inside the economy to create that, particularly engineers.

It cant be stable without such things as electricity, water supply, transport and communications. All these require engineers.

csd

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Some people of talked of engineers unionizing or something to insure fair treatment and quality in our profession, isnt that what getting a PE is for? to show that the person has met the standards to be recognized as an engineer?

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

PE = Union

Um, I don't think so.

A lot of engineering doesn't strictly fall under PE.  Heck, at least here in CA there isn't a PE for aerospace because aero is all exempt.

Now relevant professional bodies, such as ASME, SAE etc sharing some goals with unions, up to a point I suppose.  

Limiting enrollment probably not that great a plan.  Only giving government financial aid to a certain number of students in each subject area, maybe.

However, I can think of plenty of subjects to start with before engineering.  At my uni in the UK I swear there were more ‘population scientists’ in one year than the entire UK probably needed in a lifetime!

Or, how about trying to make sure that the people taking engineering actually have an interest in engineering/becoming engineers when they graduate.  So many people on my aero course at uni just seemed to be doing it because they were good at math and physics and engineering, especially aero, was considered difficult.

They had no interest in aircraft or engineering and yet the government was paying/subsidizing for them to take engineering.  I realize the US govt doesn’t subsidize degrees as much as the UK does (/did historically) but none the less…

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Good point kenat,

In Australia you get a sort of student loan from the government called Austudy to cover tuition. You have to pay back a certain percentage each year when you earn over a certain threshold.

Some people do completely useless arts degrees and never earn over the threshold so they never pay it back (and never contribute to society either.).

csd

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

csd72,I was going to say the same thing about liberal art degrees smile I know alot of liberal art degrees working the MacDonald’s, etc. My friend with an MS in Art is $125k in loans and works on an assembly line!

Its really easy to get a student lone in the US, but you have to pay it back after 6 month after graduating. You can opt to wait longer to pay it back but the interest is added to the bill.It would be impossible to go to school without a lone in the US unless you have rich parents or good at sports, with final cost being around between $50k for a state school to $125k for private schools. I had two scholarships and they paid for my books and rent...


Controlling lone amounts in order to control engineering acceptance does not make sense.  Incentives to stay in the field after graduation are what they need.
What the gov’t should do to insure that students stay in their field of study, they get a Tax break to help pay back their loans for the first 5yrs (or so) if they work in their field of study.  And give tax breaks for people pursuing a FE/PE or professional organizations, at least for a couple years out of school.  Since pay is often experience based in engineering, this would keep new graduates in the field long enough to get the experience to get the high paying jobs and not be drawn to other sales or business positions with higher starting pay.  

(Sorry if this doesn’t make sense, I am on some good pain meds right now)

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

"It would be impossible to go to school without a lone in the US unless you have rich parents or good at sports"

Oh come on! I paid vitually every cent for my education (no rich parents, couldn't catch a football if my life depended on it).  No loans, a few small scholarships (<$3000 total), no other help.  I had a job.  I worked ~30 hours a week on top of a full load of classes.  Okay, so it's not as fun and laying around and having your parents pay for everything, but plenty of people do it without help and without loans.  

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Yeah, my wife pretty much funded herself plus some small scholarships.

In fact I think I built up more student debt in the UK than she did here, and I went back when you still got a grant and no tuition!

However, with the prices some schools charge it must be difficult.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Okay, I was probably a bit harsh there.  I agree with you, Gymmeh, that the costs of attending univeristy have skyrocketed in the last 10 years.  And I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to put myself through a top tier private school without loans.

There is also the issue that working during college does take some of your focus away from your studies.  Overall I found working to be a positive experience primarily because all of my jobs were related to my studies, but I could see circumstances were working could take away from the quality of the education you are getting.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I worked at a book store just to get a discount on books smile

Bruno: Likewise, impossible might be an extreme. But its not easy to pay all by yourself while going to school without financial help and get good grades in engineering.

I dont know many college student jobs that pay $17,000 a year. The link is just for cheap state schools.

http://www.suny.edu/Student/paying_tuition.cfm


 

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

(OP)
I attended a SUNY college for my undergraduate education. The grand total for tuition charges for a full four year education was $6000. This was back in the mid 1980s. I paid for it out of my own pocket by saving the money that I earned from working during the summer, and by living at home so there were no bills for rent or meals. I earned excellent grades, which fortunately resulted in the award of a full fellowship for graduate studies at a private university in upstate New York. And I didn't take out a dime in loans. It can be done.

Maui

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

It could be done easly in the mid 80's...
With my summer jobs I could have done it in the 80's!
I had a summer job making well above min wadge-$5000 a summer-and that is not even close to $17,000 a yr. I payed as much as I could then got loans to pay the rest.   

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

(OP)
Gymmeh, the yearly tuition in your link was $4,350, which is lower than your summer earnings. If you chose to live on campus it raises your costs to $17,000 a year. And if you live in the community, you can commute like I did to keep your costs down.

It wasn't easy to do back in the mid 1980s. I earned a substantially lower wage half the summers I worked than what you posted. Keep in mind that the tuition was much lower back then, but so were the wages.

Maui

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Maui,
I was giving the cheapest case for an engineering degree and it is getting way over analyzed...

I just know I couldnt pay all my bills without a student loan, and I spent alot of time studying and not wasting money... and i worked through school...so in conclusion, the gov't should not use student loans and financial aid as a way to manage the engineering profession -as was stated earlier. (you can see my conclusion on the third paragraph 16 Nov 07 13:17 )

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I recently graduated from a state school in which the tuition only was around 12k per year.  Add in books and money to actually live on and it is VERY difficult to get through school with no loans.  Maybe it is easy if you are 18-22 with zero responsibility for anyone or anything other than yourself, but not everyone goning to engineering school is in that position.  
The suggestion being made would essentially limit engineering to those who go to college straight out of high school (which i agree is the way to go but not the apth everyone chooses or has the opprtunity to pursue).  
I worked  full time the whole time I went to college (it ended up taking 6.5 years to get a bachelor's degree) and while I didn't have any loans, it would not have been possible without my wife making a hefty sum.
I think it would be EXTREMELY difficult to get through a 4 year college program without having any student loans.  Not saying it can't be done, but the people who could do it are VERY few and far between.

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

I didnt even drink starbucks coffee, if you bought your on mug to the caffateria you could get coffee for 63 cents!

RE: Limiting Engineering Enrollment

Boys, what it boils down to is just how bad you want your education.

I am one of those who worked full time when necessary to put myself through school, part time when the money was not quite as tight.

I thought I had it tough until I found out what my Uncle did to put himself through his Engineering degree while supporting a family. In the end, I know I certainly appreciate my degree more than if I had not been forced to pay for it as I went.

As with most things in life, your personal values will drive what you strive to attain.

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