New concepts in substation interlocks?
New concepts in substation interlocks?
(OP)
Dear All.
I would like back to attached topic.
thread238-151464: Interlocks.
Today many mnf. provide projects with protocol IEC61850.
What do you think about new concepts in substation interlocks? Somebody have experience with IEC61850?
1. Only HW interlocks.
2. Only SW interlocks.
3. Both of them.
Note: of course not PLC or interlocks in computer.
Base only on Bay Controllers.
Regards.
Slava
I would like back to attached topic.
thread238-151464: Interlocks.
Today many mnf. provide projects with protocol IEC61850.
What do you think about new concepts in substation interlocks? Somebody have experience with IEC61850?
1. Only HW interlocks.
2. Only SW interlocks.
3. Both of them.
Note: of course not PLC or interlocks in computer.
Base only on Bay Controllers.
Regards.
Slava






RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Anand Sekhar
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Now I have a project for 110 kV block Line-Transformer with earthing switches on both ends of the line. I am considering to propose for them interlocking via spare fiber from FO cable used for cable differential protection. I have controlers on both ends which communicate via this fiber using 61850. But I am not sure whether customer will accept it - utilities are a bit conservative.
What is your opinion?
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
I'm watching this thread with interest.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
My last project was 220/110 kV substation - seven 220 kV and sixteen 110 kV bays, double busbar system with third - transfer bus. This is HV switchyard of a power station, so additional non-standard interlockings were required for operation of generator bays. All this was controlled by SICAM PASS control system (Siemens). No any serious problems after clearing of usual initial mistakes and omissions. Design was made by Siemens. We were subcontractors on commissioning of relay protections only there, but also involved in testing of control, signalling, etc., so some changes in configurations were made by our guys too. My impression is that when the system is carefully commissioned you should not expect serious problems.
I remember another project three years ago - one of the first control systems using 61850 protocol, made by AREVA. Their software was not in very good shape at that time and operator's station PC's crashed very soon after energizing. So until AREVA engineers repair the system, substation operated 2 months only from bay controllers without any problems. Good example about advantages of 61850 protocol - it is not PC-dependent. Actually the system operated, because it exist in bay controllers, not in operator's PC. I don't want to say anything bad for AREVA - it was in the first year of 61850. I am sure now it is much better !
So, don't worry, but watch carefully comissioning
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
I underastand at you as well.
It's not so simple change logic of interlocks , change philocophy of EE, but we must do it. We must change our mind. It's our future, substation w/o HW interlocks, only SW interlocks.
I don't want disscaus about advantages and disadvantages of IEC61850 ( I haven't any experience with this protocol).
But I have 10 years expirience with other protocols and commissioning at about 45 substations with peer to peer ( bay to bay )communication between IED. All SS with HW and SW intelocks in parallel. It's expensive, hard commissioning
and today ( after 10 years) I understand we don't need so much "redundancy". In additional IEC61850 open for us new option of redandancy:
1. ring connection.
2. double ring connection.
3. full monitoring of communication
etc, etc.
What is our problem, we need learn again.
I think, Scotty, your big problem on this moment and not only your, we depend on many communication "tricks".
But, I'm sure, after good courses, Scotty,you, with your background and experience, will understand, what you have and will happy.
No repeater relays, no wiring betweem bays, additional terminals , interconnection diagrams, etc.
So, as Iz5pl, saied, don't worry, but watch carefully comissioning. I would like add, request from vendor test:
1. Operation in several undefined position of elements.
2. Operation in case of problems with Rx and Tx separatly.
3. Loss of power supply of network switches, check recovery tiome of system.
4. Indication of loss of communication on bay controllers.
5. Overriding.
Second, you are not first.
And, we with you.
Iz5pl, O.K. you have now two ES (grounding switch) on both of ends of line. And don't have communication, no problem:
"No communication-no permit to close"' it's rule.
"No clear position of object-no permit to close"
Now, you have HW interlock, you don't know, what is a status of aux. contacts, what happend with control cable.
In case of FO, you have on-line monitoring. In case of SW interlocks, we work with double indication in case of HW interlocks it's only single.
Why, we don't say about "new" BBP, line differntial protection, it's work many years w/o problem and based on FO communication. What is a differnce?
Regards.
Slava.
We'll continue
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
But you are right, we should push a bit and after some time the things will change.
I remember i mid-80-s Head of relay protection department in National Electric Company blocked any but electromechanical relay protections, because "Who will maintain them? Who will repair printed circuit boards when faulty ?" Because of that we jumped from electromechanical directly to numerical relays!
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Yes, it's our next step, control via back up protection in HV and EHV.
You are right, conservatism in utilities and in many designer company, this is bigest problem.
We also provide on last year for trafos 161kV/22kV 90MVA IED with protection and control in same box. Any problem( on this moment of course).
Now in all tenders for the industrial, I put control and protection in smae box. From next projects, I start push on customer, used only SW interlocks.
We have reference with BFP and ATS applycation via FO and SW only.
Iz5pl, jump directly from EM relay to numerical, it's very dificult. Today, lot of russian EE in this position.
Good luck.
Regards.
Slava
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Seriously speaking, it depends on the people. Young engineers are so flexible, that one of my guys started with generator relays 5 months after coming in the company - first relay - watching me, second - under my supervision, next - I just check test records. I don't think he even considers that as something so much difficult ! Well, I prepared the test routine, but why else I get old on that job
------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Check generator relay with test procedure ( connection points, values of secondary injection) it's one side.
What about primary test and on-load test, what about fix problems?
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
What news?
Heh, prefer SW interlocking and FO connection.( after 6 hours of contol cables checking!!!!)
Regards.
Slava
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
We share a transmission substation with our TSO but they're carrying out the upgrade on our equipment because of certain legal requirements in the contracts between our companies. The project is progressing at a slow pace due to some operational restrictions which are limiting release of bays for upgrade. I am trying to reserve judgement and maintain a professional neutrality but up until now I wish ABB Baden were doing the upgrade in terms of the appearance of the project. Functionally it seems fine, it just doesn't look like the attention to detail which was obvious in the original build is present in the upgrade. We haven't got enough bays changed over for me to comment on the bay-to-bay interlocking, but the bay internal interlocking seems well thought out. Our circuits don't get started until next year because of generator outage profiles - ask me for my feelings next year when we start commissioning!
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
My regards to Baden.
I hope, you are in Du-Parc.
Are you upgrade RE216 to new FW with IEC61850 or upgrade
them to RE670?
Regards.
Slava
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Are them upgrade generator protection REG216 to REG670?
or you meant control REC216 to REC670?
RE: New concepts in substation interlocks?
Sorry, I should have been more clear. The REG216 is being replaced with a hybrid system using RE670 and REG561. The 561 is providing bay control and protection, and the 670 is providing interlocking and local MMI. There is currently a separate topology control REC216 which handles interlocking for the substation. I've had limited involvement in the design so far because the generator bay designs have not yet been formally released for review, but that is the basic concept as far as I understand it.
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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!