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Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed
8

Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
First time poster.  
I live in a town where it is extremely difficult to find an engineering job.  In fact, there seems to be a handful of places that one can be found.  I landed one with a firm a few months ago, signed a non-compete (can't work in related field within x miles of town for y amount of time after I quit) and bought a house here.  I have my BS and MS with one year relevant experience, but my employer is paying me $10K less than the bottom 10% of people in my field (according to salary.com).  I don't want to leave this town because of my ties to church and community.  

What do I do?

thanks in advance

ed

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

I've had to move house for every new job I have ever taken. Every single one.

So you have five alternatives

1) move

2) start your own business or work for someone else in a non related field

3) test the validity of the non-compete

4) get a pay rise

5) whinge on engineering forums

HTH

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

You could stay, and become the best engineer they've ever seen or heard of, so you could then make a business case that you deserve a salary more aligned with your skills.

Okay, that's a fantasy.  They'll probably continue to abuse you, because they've gotten away with it so far, or because they don't know any better, or because you're really not 'all that'.  We can't tell from here.

Working harder to get noticed or recognized rarely succeeds, at least not directly or quickly, but it can improve your skills, bring some satisfaction, and be its own reward in that way.  It's much easier if you find the actual work interesting or exciting; you didn't give us a clue how you feel about that.

If the job just bores you anyway, you could give full measure (because you're a professional, being paid for it), and not a bit more, and use your other time to start a business or get a job on the side.  In some outfits, this is the only way to get ahead, because they don't respect someone who can't manage his time well.  Again, we can't tell from here.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

evildopey,

Did you sign the non-compete before you knew what your salary would be or before you knew you were being paid less than others in your field ? If the former, that was pretty daft if you're now complaining. If the latter it would suggest you were happy with things until you saw what others were earning.

Moving to a new job in a new place is not all about salary. In your case it seems your church is as important as your job. If this isn't really the case then either find another church in a better paying area, follow the devil instead or stop whinging.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

You have a BS and an MS.  Teach.  Either full time or part time at the local Community college or tutor.  There are people (like me) who really appreciate those who teach.

BTW the "Go out on your own" is a good idea.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

2

Quote:

I live in a town where it is extremely difficult to find an engineering job.  In fact, there seems to be a handful of places that one can be found.  I landed one with a firm a few months ago

Be thankful you have a job at all, if this is actually the case.  If it's difficult to find a job because there are more qualified people than there are jobs, supply and demand is the biggest reason you're "underpaid" - this is Econ 101 stuff.

In any case, the situation you find yourself in is what it is, and really isn't unique.  You need to prioritize what you really want.  Is it the big $, the community/church, or a different job in the same area?  Adult life typically involves a lot of compromises.  If somehow you figure out a way to get everything your heart desires, please pass on your secrets.  Better yet, write a book from the comfort of your new home in the town that you love and sell it for the big $.  Problem solved.

You have options, as Greg very succinctly stated.  Option 5 isn't productive, so I'd rule that one out and figure out which of the others will best help you get whatever it is that you really desire.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

2
Dont trust salary.com or any of those crap sites!!!.....that is always about high... check you’re Department Of Labor reports (if your state posts them), which has more accurate information from the IRS and other credible sources.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

dgowans gets a star,

Thank god we are in a capitalistic society, not demand no pay.... high demand high pay...

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Greg's #3 is the first thing that would come to my mind... I've been told many different times by many different people that those NCAs are absolutely unenforceable.  What's the worst that can happen?  The old company sues you personally?

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Salary.com is not very reliable. They take the national average and multiply it by a factor in each region.

I think they use the same factor regardless of the industry which is not accurate.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Echoing everyone else. . .

If you like your community more than big $$, stay put.

If you want job choices & money & a new location, move.

Don't get too caught up in the dollar amount. A reality check on your salary would be too see what kind of lifestyle you can live in your chosen community. Is it a typical engineer's lifestyle? Most engrs I know in my area can buy a house 1-2 yrs out of school, can afford a decent vehicle, don't have to work a second job to make ends meet, can still save for retirement & have health insurance. Does this describe you? If not, you may be underpaid, but comparing info on salary.com won't tell you that.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
I actually enjoy my work.  As far as engineer lifestyle goes.  I bought a house, that's good.  The rest of my money goes to bills.  I bought both my wife's and my car from my parents while in graduate school.  Niether of us have retirement, and between both our paychecks, we manage to get about $100/month in savings.  I'm not asking for six figures, just $40k.


ed

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

This sounds more like buyer's remorse than anything else.  

Were you happy with your salary before you looked up salary.com?  Bear in mind that what's posted there may not be terribly relevant to your specific town; you call it a "town" which suggests a relatively small population.

Is your salary in the bottom 10% of the MEs in your town?  That's really the pertinent question.  Regardless of what you think the overall population is making, what matters is what people in your town are making, since you're not willing to move away.

As you indicate, you only have 1 yr of relevant experience, so that has to factor into what salary you're getting.

Certainly, $30K seems awfully low compared to numbers bandied about in the big cities, but then again, you own a house, which is no small matter in this day and age.

TTFN

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

I vote for move away. The Apostles probably wouldn't be as famous today if they didn't go anywhere because they liked their church and community.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

To go one step further than IRStuff suggesting you look at other engineers in your town, begin by looking at just your company.

How much are other engineers in your company making?

If others at your level are making the same (low) amount, then that's just a factor of the company you decided to work for.
If others are making a lot more (with similar skill/experience) then you should have a talk with your boss and discuss your situation with him/her.

Companines usually are not going to just walk up to you and offer you more money. You accepted their employment offer at a set amount, so they are just fulfilling their side of the contract. If you want more, you will have to ask for it and explain why they should give it to you. (With only a few months at the company, you don't have much history with them to demand much)
When you ask for it, they will decide if it's worth the extra money to keep you there and happy, or they will tell you no and atleast you know where you stand.


Right now it looks like your options are only stay or quit, not very good choices.

You need to start sending out your resume and interviewing with other companies. Then once you have an offer, you can make an informed decision.

You will know how much more money you could make somewhere else and can determine the costs of switching to that company. Then you can make your decision.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

LM,

I thought it was bad practice to ask others at work what their pay is, or try to find out what their pay is? Although I would love to know...

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Sure, generally, when you find out that you make 1/2 of someone else's salary, you get tee'd, particularly if that someone is a hanger-on.

However, a salary survey does serve a useful purpose, which is to gauge where you are relative to the group as a whole.  This is a simple way to determine your overall worth to the company.  Salary.com is one way, but it's often too removed from your context to be of full benefit.

TTFN

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

You could have this conversation with your boss... Ask if there is a formal system for progression, and what the median salary is for the various levels. All he/she can say is that they don't discuss it...

Less than $40,000 for a mechanical engineer with a masters degree is really really low.. What kind of engineering are you doing? What part of the country are you in?

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Take what you get from Salary.com with a grain of salt, especially if you live in a smaller town.  That said, I think sub-$40k sounds pretty low for BS/MS, especially in this job market.  Talk to your boss and see how advancement works or what is the pay scale and the potential pay scale when you advance.  In the meantime, earn your worth and you might see some bigger raises to get you in your market range.  Or pursue other opportunities, with a competing offer in hand you can show your boss what other think you are worth or you might find out that you are being paid fairly.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Some of advices above are to compare salary with colleagues, but is it possible to know about somebody other's salary?
I am just curious how far it is acceptable in the States to ask for such information. In our country it is almost normal (I don't like this, but this is my view), but from many years it is said here that people in Western countries don't like to speak about such matters. Where is the truth?

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

In the US it is considered very bad form to ask someone their salary. However in may companies the salary brackets for various positions up to and NOT including management are often public knowledge. So If you are an Engineer 1 and you want to know what an Engineer 2 makes so you can look forward to it that may well be possible as HR may have published it some place.

The govenment also does not keep this info secret and you can google GS salary and find out what the government engineers make like here...

http://www.opm.gov/oca/07tables/html/gs.asp

I think Salary.com uses this government info as well.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

evil,

Just work for the Gov't, they get pritty nice pay...

side note: I love how they have a 60 page definition of Mechanical engineer!!!

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Get your resume together, start applying for jobs, and get out. Salary.com might not be a *great* reference, but an engineer making a $30k range salary, with a MS, even with zero experience, is absurd. And since your area doesn't offer you any horizontal mobility, that's what's holding you back. You have the potential to not live like a poor-man. This "community" will forgive you.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

40k Does sound low, though depending on what industry and where you are...  That said in your first post you say you're down 10k and in the second you say you'd like 40k, are you making as little as $30000 a year?  That sounds very low.

How about working out of town during the week and going home at weekends.  

It sucks for various reasons but it's what I'm doing till I can get a job nearer home.

Some places Mikes fantasy more or less happens, but it's probably pretty rare.

Did you not ask about pay raises when you joined/interviewed?  Pay raises are typically yearly unless associated with promotions/more responsibility.  However new employees, especially new grads sometimes get reviews after 6 months or so and can get a raise then.

If nothing else I'd at least find out this type of information.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

How small is the town?  Seriously.  We just lost an engineer a few months back because he and his family were unable to sell their house in their previous town (very small, very Mayberry-ish with few industries left).  He simply couldn't afford to pay rent AND a mortgage.  If you don't want to leave town due to ties, I think your options are really limited, especially if the market has fewer positions than applicants.  If you do seriously want to consider leaving the town, I'd encourage you to look at finding ways to sell the house prior to looking for another job (assuming you'd commit to making a move to a different locale).  Assuming you find a job more quickly than you find a buyer, you could find yourself stuck in a position you can't get out of without taking a loss on the home.

I just think you have a few more things to look at than just salary.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Star to triplez,  great strategy for moving!

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
The town is a University Town with a few industries.  I actually got my MSME from here.  The town population is around 30,000 people.  It's not Mayberry, but it's no Metropolis either. I am having a difficult time in searching for jobs here.     

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

I believe I recall being told in college that the non-compete agreements wouldn't really hold-up. I suppose that depends on local laws and practices though.

A salary of 30k-40k with a master's does sound low... Again, depends on your circumstances, location, etc.

It is always difficult to negotiate compensation based on what is available elsewhere...

Opt. 1 - Talk to your boss based on "research" for competitive salaries. The more specific, the better. If I argued that I should get a raise based on what people in Boston make (one of highest cost-of-living cities in USA), my boss would dismiss it immediately. The downside is that if your boss disagrees, it could put a strain on your working relationship and make him/her expect that you are planning on leaving. The boss could then make work less enjoyable (giving you only monotonous tasks, etc).

Opt. 2 - Go out and apply/interview and try to get offers in the area. You can then use this information to decide if you are well compensated based on your location, experience, etc. Sometimes even just looking through job postings will give you some idea, as sometimes a salary range for a position is given even before the offer. This option allows you to gather and compare relevant salary information, and if you would like, you could use this as a negotiating tool for a raise and stay with your current company. However, perhaps you should also review what advancement opportunities are available before turning down an offer any other job. As far as the non-compete agreement, you don't have to tell your boss the name of the company or location. It doesn't matter if you end up staying there or not. Just saying "I have an offer that I feel is much better than my current compensation," is all the boss needs to know. Also, I wouldn't give a $$ number in negotiating. Other factors play a role as well (vacation time, insurance, etc). Just say you have an offer that you feel is better and negotiate ALL items from there. I personally would prefer an extra week of vacation to a $1000/year raise...

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

I agree with MechEng.

To add to MechEng.

If you tactfully ask for a raise;
Even if you don’t get an immediate raise, if your boss is cool and he likes you, he should explain your expected pay raise upon a positive annual review, and probably say tell you flat out what the deal is to keep you from jumping ship.  

just remember not to show any sign that you may be looking elsewhere, you may end up moving before you have a chance to get your ducks in order.

If your Boss isn't cool,MechEng's Opt.1 will probably apply...and you will want to find another job anyway

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

evildopey,
In your case, the non-compete clause is unenforceable. Slavery was outlawed in the USA some time ago as I recall. There have been legal rulings in this regard.  

My advice is, dust off your resume and search for a new job in a new location. You're young and life is too short to pigeonhole yourself in a stagnant environment, regardless of how much you presently enjoy your community. New experiences in work and living location are rewards in themselves.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

University town of 30K?  It's not really surprising that you're having a tough time...no offense intended here of course.  University towns are great incubators for businesses.  You're in close proximity to R&D, you've got grad students looking for projects or research topics for a thesis, etc.  And they work really cheap!  There's almot always an ample supply of fresh grads.  This being the case, there is always someone new, and always someone hungry for experience vs. pay...especially many of the foreign grads looking for a ticket in to the US.  

My gut feeling is that you've got a tough road ahead, and may really need to consider moving for a significant pay increase.   Good luck with this one.  And for the record, I loved my old college town (Blacksburg, VA).  But to be honest, spend two weeks in DC if you're an urbanite and the desire to live in the boonies quickly fades.  You may find the same.  But then you may go from being an urbanite to dwelling in a Midwestern cornfield like me...the stuff you'll do for career advancement sometimes will amaze you.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

I just hired a new grad with no experience

paying 60K with full benefits to start

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Vessel, need another ME?

triplz, I completely agree, areas around colleges are great for business but can be hard to start off as a fresh grad.  I have found that in my area they companies have an abundance of free eger engineers so they can low ball or hire interns. My school even has ME's have to do a final project which many local companies take advantage of by having students do design work, although some- like myself- get to apply for a US patent though program smile so it looks good on your resume.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Y'ALL just need to come to houston

fluor, bechtel, kbr, jacobs, parsons, mustang are all loaded up with work and not enough people to go around.

they are having job fairs and stealing people back and forth

sure is good for bumping up the rates

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

My advice (late and lost in the pile) stay away from salary sites.

If you are making enough money that you pay your bills, enjoy life and are 'doing ok' what does it matter if someone is making more?

You know what I heard? Doctor's make more than engineers! I could get upset by this, or I could appreciate that I make enough money to be happy in a job I like.

Generally speaking, whenever people complain about the money they're making the real issue is that they aren't happy doing the job they are doing, but they feel that somehow an additional 15% would make everything better.

I recommend (like everyone else) weigh the balances of your life and ask yourself questions like:

1) Would I uproot myself and family for $100 more per week? How about $300 per week? How about $1000?

Find your 'magic' number, it's different for everyone.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Chris, it's supply and demand and your salary is what you are selling your services for.

for a person coming from Podunk, USA where 40K is the norm and interviewing in a booming Metropolis where 90K is the norm, would you not think it is good to know what you are dealing with up front?

Why sell yourself short just because you did not know the the new employer would pay 25% more and be happy about it?

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
It's enough to pay the bills, if going on a dual income.  However, approaching our 30's, we decided it's time to have children.  We are paying bills and saving maybe $100/month. Budget is tight, but manageable.  When we have children, I don't know what we would do because she'll have to miss a few months for work. That's my problem.  I don't even make enough to raise kids and provide for my family on my income.  That is one of my career goals.  To give my wife the option not to work.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Well, you really need to get on your horse, if you want to have kids soon.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Not necessarily.  My first kid was born when I was 36, and 2nd was at 42.

However, when you do have kids, your wife might have second thoughts about continuing to work.

TTFN

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Hmmm, so the real issue is that you want your employer to help pay for your kids. Maybe I should go and ask my boss for some more money so I can buy a yacht ............

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

If you wait until you are "financially ready" to have kids, then you will probably never have them.  On the flip side, it is good that you know where you currently stand and the potential impacts involved.  My 2 cents is that it is always a good thing to be aware of possibilities to increase your salary either with your current employer or perhaps another.  Also be aware of things you can do to reduce some of your expenses as those savings drop directly to your bottom line.

Regards,

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

This reminds me of a friend and her husband. Her husband got his BA degree and never left his college town because he liked it so much. He has worked as a bookkeeper at a grocery store for about $25K/year for 20 years now because he doesn't want to move 40 miles down the road to the real city where there are better jobs. Now the two of them are 40 y.o. & 30 y.o. and live in the college town, in an apartment, with two babies, and neither one of them makes more than $30K per year. They never can afford anything nice, and most of all those friends that made the college town so great finally grew up and moved away.

I'm not saying this will happen to you, Evil. I'm just sending out a cautionary tale that wages & jobs don't get better in a college town.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
Jordonlaw

Essentially that's what a job is.  Since close to 100% of your income comes from your boss.  

Now, let's turn that around.  What if your boss didn't give you a raise as promised.  What if he turned around and bought the yacht instead of raising you?  You'd be a little upset, wouldn't you?  

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

evildopey,

If I was a boss and someone came in said I want more money as I just had kids and I don't want my wife to work anymore then I'd refuse. What happened to your skill set in the day between you not having kids and having them ? Maybe now you can change nappies (diapers ?) but you can't do anything else that develops you as an engineer. Now if you came in and said you had worked more complex projects, met all your objectives, taken on more responsibility equivalent to a higher grade and done homework on areas you were shown weak in your last review then I would give you a raise. This is the route I followed in the past.

If you want to start a family then fine but don't expect that gives you any automatic right to get more money; it doesn't.

 

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

jordonlaw,
Where did evildopey say he was going to go tell his boss he wanted more money so he could have kids??? Sounds to me like the guy is just thinking about having kids & realizes he might need a bigger salary to support a family. That's a smart thing to do - figure out how you will support your family before you have one. Wish more people would do that. Nobody just walks into their boss & says, "Hey, I bought a new house (yacht, car, bad investment). . .can I have a raise?" Who is really that stupid?

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
okay, put it this way.  Not to be cocky, but I'm doing the same thing as the contractors from different firms, same location, same projects.  I'm doing as good a job they are, but making half as much.  Personally, I think I'm worth more than 30K.  

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Are you now comparing what you make as a direct employee to what a contractor makes?  This is apples to oranges.

Contracting is a whole different animal.  Contractors will typically make more because they're essentially self-employed and must pay for their own benefits and payroll taxes.  If you're a direct employee, you get company paid benefits, correct?  If you don't get company paid benefits and you knew you wouldn't when you took the job, don't complain about it after the fact.

I go back to my earlier advice: figure out what it is you really want and go after it.  The sour grapes bit is getting old.  We all make choices in life that we have to live with or move on.  It sounds to me like you're having trouble with this.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
No.  My firm has a contract.  I am comparing myself with other contractors from different firms.  We are all working for the same agency which gave out the contracts.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

But are these other contractors also working for a similar company?  


Our company charges my time out at $150+/hr, but do you think that I make that much?

TTFN

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RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
The other contractor is a national company.  The statement of work is the same.  

I have decided to look for jobs within a 90 minute drive time radius, as I don't see a future with this company. I am going to try to move on.  I have the resume sharpened up.  

Thank you all for the advice.

And for all you folk who criticized my "whinging"  I challenge you to live off of $30K and maintain your standard of living.  You can't.  If you can, I will be first to admit you're the better person.  

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

I'm afraid what you've decided may be your best option, unfortunately.

Either way, good luck!

V

Mechanical Engineer
"When I am working on a problem, I do not think of beauty, but when I've finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong."

- R. Buckminster Fuller

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

If you've decided to move on from your current position, and what you really want is to stay in the same town, I would recommend looking into how enforceable your non-compete clause actually is.  I would surmise that you can get around it in some fashion. That may just be your best option.

You have to understand that we've all dealt with people who thought the grass was greener elsewhere.  These types can really be a drain on an organization, and nobody likes a whiner except another whiner.  Nobody will begrudge you for trying to improve your station in life but there's no magic pill to do this, lottery tickets excepted.  In this profession, the true key to getting ahead is to either be insanely brilliant or to work your tail off - in most cases it's the latter.

I think you'll find that future posts that state your problem and what you're doing to solve it will receive a substantially warmer reception.  I think a lot of the perception of your plight (mine included) was that you wanted something but weren't willing to take the necessary steps to obtain it.  If in fact you are now hopping back into the job market, I applaud your efforts.  Please post again if another situation arises where you need to bounce things off people who have undoubtedly already been there.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Even Lottery tickets are a shot in the dark!

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Get out of town and work with a substantial engineering company. For an engineer, married or not, the career comes first, otherwise there will be complaining, whining, and gnashing of teeth.

When you retire you can make decisions to consolidate with the family. In my case I retired in Michigan; relatives largely in greater NYC. My children are at the four winds. I retired at my last job location, and I am doing light consultation on the side.

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

"The career comes first..."

I totally dissagree to that statment without some additional information. IMO, Your family should come first in my mind, if making money to live is in the best interest of your family, then your career should be an important factor...

"No one ever died wishing they spent more time at work" -KWN

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
dgowans,

You're correct.  I do want to stay in this town.  My wife is happy with her job here, we are active in our church and our community.  I believe that when it comes to living, career doesn't come first.  It is God, Family, Career in that order.  

Thanks for the suggestion of testing the validity of the non-compete.  I have a copy of the contract and will show it to a lawyer.  It seems that I can work my tail off as much as I want and still wind up around $30K with the small firm that I'm working for.  

Since I posted, I have followed leads to other agencies anywhere from 20 - 90 minutes away.

Thanks,

evildopey  

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

(OP)
After months of searching, I found a new job.  It is 5-10 minutes closer to home, pays 5K+ more than my previous job, picks up benefits for me and my wife, and is not applicable to the non-compete that I signed. I'm still not quite at 40K, but with the benefits package, some tell me that that is comprable to 46+.  Based on these forums, it would seem that march is the time to switch jobs.  Thanks for all the advice.   

RE: Improving my circumstances - feel pigeon-holed

Good luck!

V

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