Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
(OP)
Does anyone have any idea of the impact of bio-fuels? pros and cons?
We are no longer talking about recycling used chip fat here, but purposeful production.
Even as Bio-fuels begin to atract attention we hear about grain and meat prices rising, as we should expect when there is competition to turn our wheat into either bread or fuel.
We also have concerns about our environment. Indonesia is said to be prepared to plant more palms for the palm oil and that means more destruction of the forrests (more burning and smoke?) and loss of habitat to the already endangered (how seriously?) Orang Outang.
This report suggests Brazilian sugar cane as a source. http:/ /www.livem int.com/20 07/09/2401 3816/BPCL- looks-to-t ie-up-with -Petr.html
We all know that we are already losing rain forest at an alarming rate so how bad will this be? 600 acres doesn't sound like a whole lot of land but:
We are no longer talking about recycling used chip fat here, but purposeful production.
Even as Bio-fuels begin to atract attention we hear about grain and meat prices rising, as we should expect when there is competition to turn our wheat into either bread or fuel.
We also have concerns about our environment. Indonesia is said to be prepared to plant more palms for the palm oil and that means more destruction of the forrests (more burning and smoke?) and loss of habitat to the already endangered (how seriously?) Orang Outang.
This report suggests Brazilian sugar cane as a source. http:/
We all know that we are already losing rain forest at an alarming rate so how bad will this be? 600 acres doesn't sound like a whole lot of land but:
- how much bio-fuel will it produce?
- Should bio-fuel be organic? (seriously, the impact of chemicals etc isn't just on foods but on the local ecosystems... )
- How much land would be required to produce enough bio-fuel to replace petrol/diesel?
- If we replace petrol/diesel with bio-fuel, how cost effective is secondary refining
- what are the impacts on the oil industry? Does crude get more expensive or less?
- what are the economic impacts of such changes on refining and thus on society?
- What are the questions we should be asking?





RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
ht
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://antigreen.blogspot.com/
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
As far as the other questions go, I think the answer is largely that it depends.
How much will it produce - which type of biofuel are you considering, and which refining process?
Cost effectiveness - what is the energy source for your refining process?
What will the future price trend of of petro-fuel be?
Personally I'm quite hopeful for bio-fuel. The fact is it can be produced and used with a net carbon release of zero, if done right. And the proceeds from bio-fuel are much more likely to benefit a wider section of the population than petro-fuel; notably the agriculture producers and their supporting industries. Many of the arguments targeted at bio-fuel neglect to consider (often intentionally) that it is a a technology in its infancy, with a large amount of efficiency yet to be gained.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
From Argonne National Lab, dated July '02: "Corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.34; that is, for every Btu dedicated to producing ethanol there is a 34- percent energy gain. Furthermore, producing ethanol from domestic corn stocks achieves a net gain in a more desirable form of energy, which helps the United States to reduce its dependence on imported oil. Ethanol production utilizes abundant domestic energy feedstocks, such as coal and natural gas, to convert corn into a premium liquid fuel. Only about 17 percent of the energy used to produce ethanol comes from liquid fuels, such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 Btu of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 Btu gain."
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf
Antigreen indeed.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Realistically most of this silliness will be eliminated if, or when, the price of oil rises to a level commensurate with its value - at the moment it is so cheap it is virtually impossible to make rational decisions on reducing its usage.
However since the Saudis are now building petrochemical plants, to turn oil into plastic, we might see a fundamental revaluation of the price of oil.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
So the use of bio fuels will grow more and start becoming attractive as fossil fuel oils price increase.
There is no sufficient arable land on which to grow all the bio fuel crops needed to satisfy industrialised nations.
The industrialised countries are looking to the Third World to feed their addiction: the land is there for the taking as is cheap labour, and the environmental damages of large plantations, bio fuels extraction and refining can all be outsourced, exactly as they were in the extraction of crude oil.
By cutting down the world forests to have intensive Soya plantations will have a negative impact on net CO2 balance.
Development needs energy, energy has impacts on Earth climate changes, and Earth is the ship of all the humankind. Let us think together for a better and clean energy
luismarques
“We should be the heart and mind of the Earth, not its malady. So let us be brave and cease thinking of human needs and rights alone, and see that we have harmed the living Earth and need to make our peace with Gaia. We must do it while we are still strong enough to negotiate, and not a broken rabble led by brutal war lords. Most of all, we should remember that we are a part of it, and it is indeed our home.
By James Lovelock Allen"
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
On a very large scale which involves reducing food production so much as to cause hardship, destroying valuable environments etc then probably bad, or at least problematic.
"By cutting down the world forests to have intensive Soya plantations will have a negative impact on net CO2 balance. "
Will it, at least significantly? I thought that mature forests were close to carbon neutral, the dead foliage etc decays releasing CO2 etc almost as fast as the live foliage takes in CO2, especially when you add in the associated wildlife. Growing crops (if you ignore the fuel used etc) is also approximately carbon neutral.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
This is somewhat alarming because we have hardly mooted the idea of bio-fuels and already we are seeing serious price impacts.
Now I don't know just how much of this is anticipated and how much is transitional but it worries me that in the short term we may be able to feed our cars but not our families and even if both food and bio-fuel are available we may not be able to afford both.
Of course it is transitional.
We just have to wait until the rain forests are chopped down and burned (as seems to be the natural response and which releases a huge amount of CO2 and CO2 collected by some trees over many decades, perhaps even a hundred or so years in some cases, will be released in a series of rapid bur seasons.) then we will have all the land we need for bio-fuels and food. Maybe. Club of Rome anyone?
We still avoid the problem of too many people and a need for a fuel source that doesn't destroy the planet as we know it in one way or another.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Cane sugar seems good for conventional ethanol but is corn really competative without massive governement subsidies? Is sugar beet a better alternative?
Are some of the 'vegetable' oil sources more efficient?
If cellulose ethanol comes out well then what is the best feed crop, or is it better to use waste from regular food production?
What about these supposed processes that can turn certain wastes into an oil?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
- fertilizers for other crops are increasing as corn growers, with a higher margin crop, can pay higher prices
- feed lot owners are charging more because corn (for feed) is increasing (to a fuel equivalent)
- land that once produced other crops are switching to corn, resulting in less other produce
- land that once did not produce anything (for example, lack of water) are being converted to crops, in many cases, with irrigation (because the fuel equivalent prices make it economically viable) resulting in heavier water usage, and heavier water run off
So, price of food is going up.
Another problem: if you grow only corn on a piece of land, you start "starving" the soil of specific nutrients - that is why farmers rotate crops in certain patterns, in order to keep the soil healthy. The alternative is fertilizers, which is what many growers are doing to take advantage of the prices due to ethanol.
Yes, other countries are going bio-fuel, but at what long term cost? I don't think anyone knows for sure.
I think bio-fuel is a good technology. I think the application of the technology needs to be improved. When we use wood chips, food processing plant leftovers, spent oil/grease, bio-fuel is a good idea. To use "virgin crops" to convert to bio-fuel (ethanol, bio-diesel, etc), I think that needs to be re-thinked to see if it really is viable in the long run.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
How much land is used on 'non essential' crops, how much ethanol could we get from it?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Plus we have the EU set aside schemes.
Now you can bet that pressure on land use will put pressure on organic farmers and the price of organic food will probably rise more steeply just to get the same or better $/£/€ yield per acre.
Or, organic farming will go by the board. As suggested above, without crop rotation farms will be dependent on fertilisers.
There are some serious environmental issues here.
What happens to set aside?
The big supermarkets have had some negative effects on the countryside, and farm management tends toward the big machines which requires larger fields and fewer hedge rows. Operatoed by or on behalf of the bio-fuel companies can we see pressure for more of this?
EU dwellers can also look forward to some interesting revamping of farm subsidies.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
(My order-of-magnitude alarm bells started ringing when I noticed that a gallon of ethanol equates to 2.5 gallons of whiskey. That's a lot of booze for one person to consume each day!)
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
You scared me! I'm still scared.
Food or fuel, OK, but food or whiskey? Oh dear. Just think how punitively the Chancellor will tax Whiskey to make us use it for fuel esle fuel prices will climb to whiskey prices.
The impact on the Whiskey industry would bring about the Secession of Scotland from The UK.
So OK Japanese or Welsh Whiskey, I can live without that, so long as there is Scotch or Bourbon.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
It would be interesting to see figures for how much arable land is currently used for non vital food production. Combined with changing some pastoral land to arable etc it might be possible to generate a reasonable amount of bio fuel without significantly impacting world food stocks.
However, it would require a change in habits and menues.
I don't see it happening. It's easier to cut down rain forest or starve the third world than get people to stop smoking, drinking alchohol, tea coffee, eating chocolate, lots of meat etc.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Get people back on the allotments and growing wheat and rape seed instead on pansies and imported flowering shrubs. Window boxes of it instead of parlsey and pansies.
I think I'll send of for some "Hasting's Prolific" seeds.
Must be a lot of land that could be used for small DIY bio-fuel production.... drag it along to the market and get a few bob for sack or two.
On the other hand, My great uncle had a better idea of what to do with corn (he lived in Georgia) though I gather the revenue men had a different idea about his self help initiative.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Solar powered artificial light, no doubt?
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://www
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Any calc you do has to take into account all the inputs and all the outputs, though. The oft-touted studies which view corn ethanol as a net consumer of fossil fuel energy neglect to offer any benefit for the brewer's grain mash that is left over after fermentation. This material is not a waste, it's a secondary product which can be used to offset the need for the grain in the first place. Doing such a calc and forgetting a major energy balance line item like this is either extraordinarily incompetent or deliberately fraudulent. There are many fraudulent or grossly erroneous claims out there on both sides of the argument for corn ethanol, so it's not just one side guilty of these bad calcs.
Based on my review of the information, I'd say that corn ethanol does offset, to a minor extent, some fossil fuel use- to such a minor extent that it's hardly worth doing. Biodiesel does the same, provided it uses waste vegetable or animal oil as a feedstock- using fresh oil biodiesel is pretty much energetic insanity. That also assumes that there's no alternative food use for the waste oil (i.e. in pet food etc.)
This is all a distraction from what we should be doing: taxing carbon or putting in place a cap and trade system. There's ample evidence to satisfy me that we need to wean ourselves off fossil fuels as fuels (as opposed to higher value uses such as chemical feedstocks etc.), and the only way that will work is to hit people in their pocketbooks. The solutions are many, and few of them are fuel replacements- most of them are behaviour changes for consumers and design changes to the things that consume energy.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Regards,
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://
In essence it says that while Palm oil looks good in terms of yiled per acre compared to other fuels, the main producers, Malaysia and Indonesian, would actually release huge amounts of CO2 through deforestation and draining peat swamps.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://en
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
but their hearts are in the right place...
Another and possibly more attractive bio-fuel is oil from Alage.
http://algaelink.com/
They pass the website test, just. They do have films but the overall website appears to have been put together by someone too busy doing other things (like working on a real project) to worry about page links, menus on all pages and a working home page.... such a contrast to some of the con-merchant sites with flash players and animations, glowing testimonials etc).
Some links on this page:
http://w
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://www.greasecar.com/
Regards,
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://w
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Regards,
Mike
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Regards,
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
(Wikipedia)
The article is here:
h
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
We are expecting the optimal and perfect performances from the new technology.
When the first car came out, people asked ironically "and what happens when the fuel is over?" My horse just eats some grass and he continues ...
I don't see so many people riding horses today on the highways..
New things bring new problems, and everything is in a dynamic movement. New thinks bring also new solutions that nobody can even imagine right now, as we try to extrapolate from the actual situation.
Everything (statisticians say) has a logistic curve, but for some reasons we never think about it. Problem is that nobody knows and/or can predict when the curve will change its concavity. But it will do it.
If the new technology brings job to your local community, why not investigate on it?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
well, I guess it depends on what biscuits are on offer.
If the blood shortages get to crisis point maybe it'll be Gin and Tonic on offer or a pint of stout.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Half pint of scotch, no thank. Half pint of real Irish Whiskey yes please. Actually second thoughts I'm remembering that night now and I'll pass thanks.
In a true knee jerk reaction way, given the price of food at our local grocery store I've decided bio-fuels are a bad thing, at least for my wallet
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Hooray! Somebody actually counting BTUs.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Don't get me wrong I have concerns over bio-fuel but it seems that every set of figures is skewed to one extreme or the other.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
These days the one environmentalist group I like to hear from are the bird watchers, they always seem at odds with the rest.
They are definitely anti-windfarms and, on the marine fuel front, prefer heavy fuel oil to distillate because it is easier to clean up.
In the case of "bio-fuels" even the most gung-ho activists seem to have reservations and say some bio-fuels are "bad". I'd like to think that is because there are real problems but I begin to suspect it is because too many people are seeing bio-fuels as the next golden goose and smilling too much. I must look and see what the bird lovers say but probably it is the possible encroachment of intensive bio-fuel crops on wetland habitats that will bring them out.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http:
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
ht
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Still has the potential problems of putting pressure on food supply and/or leading to forest etc being cut down for arable land.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
If the bio-source material is going to waste anyway, why not use it for fuel? That depends greatly on what you mean by waste. You need some of the agricultural waste to keep the soil condition decent. And most of the food-based "wastes" such as used cooking oil and rendered animal fats can be used in pet food to substitute for fresh foodstocks. Putting them in your gastank instead just diverts some fresh foodstock into its place.
Then there's the energy you waste to make these bulky, generally solid bio-source materials into anhydrous liquid fuels...
Part of the solution? Perhaps. But not a major one. More distraction than solution in my opinion.
Stop holding out a false hope of a technological fix. Tax carbon and real solutions will be provided by the market. Do not tax carbon and you'll get more fiddling while the atmosphere burns.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
The main reason I never felt biofuels would work is harvesting area. The only one source so far I can think that will work is using Algae. I was reading a paper recently that said they can grow algae vertically instead of horizontally like the other potential fuel sources so the yield per acre is really high. The article was either on cnn, foxnews, or slashdot
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Algae has the highest potential in that it can be grown in facilities built over unusable land (deserts), using non-potable water (possibly salt water).
What kills me over this debate is the closed minded people out there who are just anti-innovation. I am not advocating giving up SUV's and moving into hippy-communes, but I do support finding an alternative to fuel the lifestyle I currently enjoy. Plus, the people that solve this problem and invest in their efforts will make a TON of money!! I hope the innovations happen here in the US, and my financial adviser put some of my money into their stocks!
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
True alternatives will cost MORE than the status quo, at least in the short term, because the status quo gets to dump sh*t into the atmosphere free of charge. So guess what: the status quo favours technologies that dump sh*t into the atmosphere. Alternatives that don't do this, or do less of it for similar performance, fundamentally cost more- at very least in capital cost terms. Ain't no way to innovate your way out of that one: that one needs an ECONOMIC solution.
So what you want is a different kind of biofuel- snake oil. It not only fuels your SUV, but cures cancer too- if you take enough of it. Don't worry, there'll be plenty of people willing to sell it both to you AND to your financial advisor.
PS: I don't consider myself to be at ALL anti-innovation or closed-minded. I'm just anti-pipedream! Look up how much biological carbon is generated every year by agriculture (ie. on the very best land suited for growing stuff), and compare that to how much fossil carbon we're using every year, and do the math- then tell me whether or not you're still holding out hope for someone to "invent" a new biofuel that will displace even the transportation fraction of the fossil carbon we're burning! In reality, both lifestyles AND energy sources need to change. We'll get to that realization quicker if we give up the false hope of a technological fix.
As somebody who innovates and does process development for a living and has done so for most of my career, I can't for a minute forget that innovation needs underlying economics to fuel it- and preferably not in the form of subsidy or tax credits that are here today, gone tomorrow at the whim of whatever government's in power. Innovation responds to payback- and can't violate the laws of thermodynamics.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
I'm not advocating all biofuels as the saving grace of the transportation industry’s energy crisis. In fact, I don’t even support most biofuels. Any biofuel solution that drives up the cost of food sources, is a negative net energy output, or depletes another natural resource is not a viable alternative. Right now the infrastructure and machinery exists to distribute and consume diesel though, so a diesel based solution is at least feasible. Algae grown on unusable land, using say wastewater treatment output, and results in a net energy output seems like a viable alternative worth pursuing.
I appreciate your future minded solution, which is exactly what we need. But a tax increase will pass on cost increase to consumers who would be getting the same product for more money with no immediate alternative or foreseeable solution. I have NO FAITH in our government to use your proposed tax revenue to solve this crisis any time soon. We can see how the government is solving social security and health care... head in the sand, the next administration will solve it. That is why I pay for my own health insurance, invest for my own retirement and support private industry to provide solutions to these problems.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
When he starts up the engine runs till it is at the optimum temperature to minimise pollution and to top up the batteries.
Since he lives about five minutes drive from home, it means he only gets to run on electric for the last brief part of his journey.
This means he is getting around 25mp(US)g and is dragging around the weight of the batteries.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
It's for this reason that I've previously suggested that hybrid technology at this stage should be focused where it would make most differences such as postal vehicles and other delivery trucks, maybe taxis or even busses in the larger congestion plagued cities. However this seems unlikely to happen on a significant scale.
Once(if) plug in hybrids arrive, and make sense, then they'll start to be more attractive. However, even then they only really make sense if the electricity is made from a greener and/or more efficient source than just burning the gas in the car (or at least moving the point of emissions has significant benefit) - like full electric vehicles.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
I wouldn't want to pay to get it serviced though.
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
evelrod: don't hold your breath. We're very unlikely to find some way to stick a plug into vacuum space and extract energy from it. As to your historical example, we switched from one fossil fuel (coal) to others (oil and natural gas). No great technological leap there in terms of the energy SOURCE, though much was done on the discovery, recovery and utilization. But we did discover nuclear power: a mixed blessing in environmental terms for sure. Far from the perfect energy source it was thought to be in the '50s...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
I am vaguely familiar with the "null space" or whatever the geniuses are calling the theory these days and I have my doubts...But then again, I'm no genius. We'll just have to wait and see...No, y'all will...I'm already too old to see it, I fear.
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
There will need to be an additional electricity meter (I already have two!) that measures electricity used to fuel cars. This will require a different plug and some kind of tamper-proof system.
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
The hiway people will do what they do for cars that use propane. You will go down annually and submit your milage and pay a tax on miles driven useing propane. The way it works is if you drive more than about 8000 miles/year the tax is fixed at about $200.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
LPG?
Forget it, in the UK no one trusts the government not to boost taxes once enough people have committed to using it.
So now we should trust the government to do the right thing at last? not likely.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
In yesterday's Energy article, the author mentioned that the utility bills have gone up by some huge % in the name of helping green agenda, but without reducing a single mole of CO2 from the world. Its just an very good excuse for the govts and corporations to boost the income/profits by taxing more in the name of being more GREEN....
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
IMHO bio-fuels and hybrids are just smart companies exploiting the tax incentives/gov't grants that are available. and don't get me started on "carbon-neutral" ... i'm warning you all !
the west is not, repeat not, going to significantly reduce it's per capita consumption of power ... that'd cost too much it living standard(/consumption). the under-developed countries are busily (and dirtily) trying to match the western "standard".
the "only" long term solution is fusion power.
off soap-box
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Hmm.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
If we all pull together...Yeah, riiight...Like that will ever happen!
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
would you be interested to know that a canadian scientist (Steve McIntyre) has shown that you get Mann's hockey-sstick with a random input !
i don't think you can prove the climate models are using the wrong solar forcing any more than you can prove they're using the right one !
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
"In a recommendation released last weekend, the 20-member panel [reporting to the European Environment Agency], made up of some of Europe's most distinguished climate scientists, called the 10 percent target "overambitious" and an "experiment" whose "unintended effects are difficult to predict and difficult to control." ht
One wonders if distinguished climate scientists have given any thought to the possible 'unintended effects' of a 60 percent reduction in global carbon emmissions.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://w
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/rtfo/
- Steve
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
h
With that stated, I believe that we do not have an influence on climate change - warming cooling or anywhichaway
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Common sense does not prevail when technology and politics are combined. Case in point: the current energy situation. A crisis has been lurking for years with no understanding from Washington DC. The latest mainstay for the self-serving politicians is the mandate for use of ethanol in gasoline. Here, they purport that it is good for the environment and adds to the fuel supply. Amazing, how wrong our illustrious leaders can be for both needs. As to the environment, oxygen (i.e. ethanol addition) in gasoline to reduce auto exhaust emissions should have had a sunset (i.e. been terminated) years ago because of the advances in fuel metering (stoichiometric sensing). Plus, the addition of ethanol increases evaporative emissions simply from adverse mixing conditions. Also, ethanol has significantly less energy/gallon than gasoline thus reducing miles/gallon of fuel per car.
Now, as to adding to the fuel supply, corn ethanol results in a heavy consumption of gasoline...It requires as much or more energy to obtain seed, plow the ground, plant, grow, cultivate, harvest, produce, transport and market the ethanol relative to its energy worth in gasoline! But what a bonanza for the corn producers---- simply a shift in dollars for farmer support at the expense of food and gasoline consumers. Plus a govt. subsidy for this! Worse than any subsidy is the depletion of our water resources when growing excess corn for ethanol. According the Dept of Agric studies, it takes apprx. 4000 gallons of water to produce a bushel of corn. About 2 and 1/2 gallons of ethanol can be obtained from a bushel. How nonsensical, so, what else is bad? Well, ethanol blends are being sold as marine gasoline....GREAT... but ethanol is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture from the air. And with sufficient absorption of water from the air, the ethanol/water will separate from the gasoline. Of course the humidity near a boat approaches 100%. Thus, a boat with a breathable fuel tank will provide an ethanol/water layer and a gasoline layer of fuel. How nice for the poor boater with erratic engine behavior, provided he can even get the engine started.
I hope my addressees will give this brief a wide distribution to inform the electorate of the fraudulent promotion of ethanol/gasoline blends.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
The report said that it has energy per acre levels higher than soy which they said was already better than corn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha
There are obviously some issues with it still, and I'm still sceptical about widespread bio fuel generally but if we're determined to do it may as well try and do it well so this looks interesting.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
So, combined with the information on the news clip I mentioned that soy is more energy dense per acre than corn then the price of diesal should plummet, right?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
One problem with Brazil is that they are destroying rainforest at a rate greater than any other *continent*. Since it's coming more and more to light that land use changes are having big regional climate effects, there's no telling what's going to come of that. Since they are destroying so much transpiratable vegetation, they may not end up with enough rain to make their sugar cane grow...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Corn is not the answer, but it is a stepping stone.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
What if we used other low BTU bio-fuels and bulked them up with coal to form propane? It is currently being used as a motor fuel now and is some what plausable.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Yes, a better solution is no subsidies at all, for any type of farming...but every legislator that has tried to do away with them has suffered for it. And, you and I would scream if we suddenly had to pay the real cost of our food, including variable/unpredictable increases due to droughts, floods, etc. Subsidies stabilize those variations by ensuring (usually) over-production for domestic uses.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Sugar cane needs certain climate to thrive, most of the US doesn't have that climate. I believe it may also be fairly demanding on the soil, not sure if more or less than corn.
I've asked the beets question before and never got a satisfactory answer as I recall, my own limited research didn't turn up much. Simplistically, give that beets are the preffered option for making sugar in temperate climbs you'd expect they'd be good for ethanol too. Part of it I'm sure is that in the US people already grow a lot of corn, there are corn subsidies etc - it's an established 'industry' on a very large scale.
If serious about ethanol how about lifting sanctions on CUBA to get access to their cane? Though they may have found new customers by now.
Given that the Diesel cycle is more efficient, and that soy beans supposedly get more BTU per acre for bio fuel I wonder if bio diesel is the way to go rather than ethanol. I believe less issues with distribution, modification of vehicles etc too but could be wrong. Then Jatropha is potentially even more area energy dense, plus drought tolerant so maybe that needs more research.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Still fundamentally I think biofuel is problematic due to the competitiong with food crops and quetionable efficiency.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
But that's politics, which I'm deffently not an expert, although I have my thoughts.
Also importing surgar from other countries will rise the price of food in the third world, which is what we are seeing with corn. However I would think sugar would be a better crop for making ethonol.
If we change to oil crops for biofuel won't we again be rising food prices for the third world.
I somewhat agree the third world isen't our child.
But KENAT has a point that it would be better if we paid tobacco farmers to grow soumthing useful, rather than paying them to not grow anything.
And I can somewhat say the samething about the goverment programs in the midwest to take farm land out of production.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
As I agree, mentioned previously, I think that any bio fuel that impinges on food production is doomed to failure. In the U.S., desert areas of the southwest once were considered for the cultivation of the ubiquitous creasote plant. That was some twenty odd years ago. Anybody reasearching that possiblity lately?
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
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RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Too bad the only place they could currently survive ( at least in the US ) is parts of Florida.
But the Amazon could easily become the next big oil producing area.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copaifera_langsdorfii
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
LCruiser...
While hemp is by far the best choice, IMO, for our immediate energy needs, the arcane notion that industrial hemp is the same as marijuana (a result of the cotton lobby and Dupont v. Henry Ford in the 1930's)...can we really expect our most evangelical society to accept hemp as a fuel alternative (as well as many, many other manufactured goods replacing 'oil') any time in the near future?
The state of the U.S. economy is in trouble...I think we can agree on that. The reasons are many and varied. All I can suggest is a careful comparison of the economy of 97/98 with 07/08 with an eye to the future. We have most probably two candidates to choose from for President this year, neither of which "can balance a check book"!
Rod
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
It triples in volume every day, is a year round, not annual producer and its yields can be as high as 15,000 gallons per acres.
Corn yields are around 80 gallons and soy yields are approximately 40 gallons of biodiesel per acre (according to AAGC.)
AAGC is the American Algae Growers Corporation.
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Sounds good.
Why do I get that "no such thing as a free lunch" feeling?
Am I just jaded? Why isn't all our money going into algae instead of wind farms?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Apparently the "high-yield" (per acre) part is valid, but the downside are the costs (not acreage) required produce it.
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Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9765452-7.html
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Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
htt
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Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
One of the biggest problems is apparantly getting light to the algae. Either you need to somehow stir the ponds or whatever so all the algae gets exposure or you use light pipes, mirrors etc to try and get the light more spread out. Otherwise only a fin film on top gets the light. Sadly the algae has a habbit of sticking to things, like the light pipes et.
I can't remember where I read the article or I'd put a link.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/kingcorn/
If we Americans can get off of meat, more farmland will be availible for food or biofuel production. For the record, I think biofuels are a BAD idea. Corn is in everything. The price of it will skyrocket as we currently see in the market. Has anyone discussed Hot Rock Geothermal??
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
So exactly why is corn in everything, probally because sugar is to high priced.
So why not import and use molases for ethonol production, after all in the islands they have been doing it for years.
But don't they also use barley also?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http:/
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Cane sugar is cheaper to make, but there are tarrifs that prevent importation of sugar to the US, and few cane plantations left in the US (all the land in Florida has been converted to retirement colonies). Corn syrup fills the gap created by the tarrifs.
Corn is in everything because it is cheap. It's cheap because it's subsidized, creating surplus corn that can be converted to (easily stored) syrup. Corn is subsidized because not doing so causes farmers to go broke. Farmers going broke (along with other factors) causes instability in food prices, and some people in the US (who don't know how to save/store food) to go hungry, and call their congresscritters and complain about it.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Subsidies are a double edged sword. Give the little guy money to help him survive and you also fund the mega-farmers who push crappy corn to feed livestock who aren't evolved to eat 100% grain. Then they develop acidosis, so they pump them full of antibiotics. Horrible vicious circle.
But, I digress from bio-fuels. I believe current corn prices have jumped to about $8/bushel. Prices pushed up by natural diasters and increased use. Sound like any other fuel we use??
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
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JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://www.energyvictory.net/
???
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
We differ entirely in strategies for dealing with the problem. The way to get off the foreign oil is to stop wasting so damned much of it, not to try to replace it with ethanol! Unless you do the former, the latter, even if it were feasible, would soon reach its limits.
He doesn't even bother to do the calc to show how much land would be needed to get the US off foreign oil via corn ethanol because I'm sure he knows it's impossible as well as anyone else does. He shows one graph which shows how much land is "arable", how much is farmland, how much of that is for corn and how much of that (was, in some unreferenced year) being used to produce ethanol, but that's as far as he goes. You can do a simple order of magnitude energy calc for yourself to ground-truth it. Simply take the entire world's generation of agricultural biomass (given in Wikipedia, with references) and compare it to the US's total petroleum and natural gas consumption annually. I've done it, and there just isn't enough farmland, even if we didn't need any of it for food, to make this feasible- even if we do far better than corn ethanol ever could.
He does have a nice graph from an article in Science- I'd love a copy of the source article if anyone has it. It shows Pazek and Pimentel's (flawed) studies off to the left, and a number of others off to the right (in the region showing that even corn ethanol modestly reduces fossil fuels use). Then it shows "cellulosic- projected" way off to the right. The magic technological fix...
As to cellulosic ethanol: if it's not worth our bother to burn biomass directly to satisfy our stationary energy needs right now, it's not worth it to throw away a very significant portion of the energy content of the biomass to make cellulosic ethanol for transportation fuel use. And despite 20-30 years of research and record-high oil prices, there are no commercial cellulosic ethanol plants yet. There are significant technological and logistical and energetic and economic problems to be solved there, and merely willing them to be solved does not seem to be all that effective at actually solving them.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
EPR took over operation from the constructor in 2004.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
Design News article:
http://ww
Manufacturer's web site:
http://www.efuel100.com/
where they make the claim (from their FAQ):
"The MicroFueler is more power-efficient than US commercial ethanol plants due to its advanced membrane filtration technology and a non-combustion fermentation and distillation process."
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
The heat of evaporation has to come from somewhere, whether you do this by conventional distillation or you use membranes. What he's claiming is that it's not a "fired" unit and hence less dangerous. I presume the heat is coming from electric immersion heaters in his case. That's only "efficient" if you forget about the cost of the electricity, which of course he's banking on.
There are commercial ethanol producers who ae using membrane systems to dry ethanol, so there's nothing magic there. The crude cut (geting rid of most of the water) is still most efficiently done by conventional distillation. And the key problem remains: the bugs are killed by the ethanol they're making before its concentration goes beyond a certain (comparatively low) level.
There are, in fact, lots of reasons that doing this on a small scale will be LESS efficient than doing it on the larger scale. One of the big downsides in his case is the wasted sugar fermentation broth, whereas in a corn ethanol operation the brewer's mash can be fed to cattle.
RE: Bio-fuels .... good or bad?
http://www.sdamovers.com/956.html
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com