External nozzle loads
External nozzle loads
(OP)
Is any body Know how I can find external nozzle loads and moments for nozzle’s pump . I need those for stress analysing program. I found those in in API610 but there are in force unit(pound) I need stress(F/A)psi .
thanks
thanks





RE: External nozzle loads
Why do you need them in units of stress? And why would you think that it is an F/A stress and not a Mc/I stress? or maybe a combination of both? What "stress analysing" (sic.) program requires a stress for nozzle loads?
RE: External nozzle loads
If you are using Caeser as Piping stress program, then in the output ,your pump nozzle node should be within the allowables.(As per table 2-1A in code API 610).
RE: External nozzle loads
RE: External nozzle loads
a pump so I start first node with flange so the program asked me following question for flange
1-flange type
2-flange weight
3-gasket diameter
4-allowable pressure.
I don’t know what does the programs means for allowable pressure at flange
thank you
farhad
RE: External nozzle loads
RE: External nozzle loads
1) Is this the first piping stress analysis that you have ver done ? If so, it may be beneficial to read the manual
2) Qualification of pump nozzles typically means evaluating the nozzle loads generated by the piping via a stress analysis program (such as CAESAR-II)and comparing the loads generated with those allowed by the pump manufacturer. If the loads are excessive, eith a re-rout of the piping or reconfiguration of the supprt scheme is usually done
3) Not all pumps are built to API-610 requirements. It has been my expereince that the pumps built to ANSI B73.1 ( or the ISO equivalent) have lower allowables.
My opinion only....
-MJC
RE: External nozzle loads
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
RE: External nozzle loads
Guides and anchors in the area close to a pump are mathematical solutions only that won't do you a bit of good in the real world. You typically have an 1/8" gap on a guide or anchor. By the time the pipe deflects that much, your nozzle is grossly overloaded. You need a flexible piping layout to get pump systems to work.
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
RE: External nozzle loads
Please tell me how can I use allowable load tables (in API-610 ) in stress analyses .when a pipe connect to the pump.
best regard
farhad
RE: External nozzle loads
If you have BOSS FLUID by Paulin Research Group www.paulin.com use as a check in piping stress analysis for Pump Nozzle Loads.
RE: External nozzle loads
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
RE: External nozzle loads
Most refinery pumps are API type, agreed there are others, but API 610 is pretty clear in what is required. Most manufacturers allow 2x API loads, and if you cannot extract calcualted loads for comparison from a computer output, you should not be attempting the analysis.
I agree with Mr Klein, flexibility, decent support and realistic restraint are key to a successful pump hook-up.
RE: External nozzle loads
Example:
API 610 Table 2-1B allows an 1800 lb axial load on a 12” side nozzle. With an expansion joint in place, there is an equivalent hydraulic load on the pump with 16 psig of pressure. So how can a pump engineered for API 610 maximum flange loads work with an expansion joint??? Perhaps shaft alignment is less important when expansion joints are used. NOT
BigInch is correct, It is difficult if not impossible to design a piping system that has the flexibility to allow significant temperate changes and still meet the requirements of API 610.
RE: External nozzle loads
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
RE: External nozzle loads
I second the comments by Mr. Edward L. Klein, whom has performed piping stress analysis, knows how the programs work and the limitations of the real world.
Stating that the allowable reactions are "Zero, zero, zero," is the typical MBA solution ....... not practical in the real world.
All pumps see some reaction loads from the piping system, ...even those with rubber or SS "flex joints" at the nozzles. Most manufacturers give such small allowable loads, that they are impossible to meet in the real world, and require an expensive "review" by the pump vendor before they are acceptable. The clients usually are enraged at these kinds of costs
BI, the only way for a pump to see "zero" loads is to leave it on the truck and not attach any piping........!!!!!
My opinion only
-MJC
RE: External nozzle loads
Its not only your opinion, its mine too. I don't disagree with Klein, other than he is implying that allowable nozzle loads are high. I am well aware of API limits and in relation to those that any pipe bigger than 4" can reach with less than 1º F temperature change, if anchored in a poor location, they're nothing. 0,0,0 is my way of saying "real world style" that the allowables are so low, why begin the analysis with anything higher than 0. It only makes the support placement iterations and reruns that much harder. If you begin an analysis thinking you will be allowed to have higher loads, you'll really have a lot of work to do. Think in your mind, "How do I get zero loads" and you just might come in under the allowables, eventually.
PS, I began doing pipe stress on an IBM360. Its not like I discovered it yesterday. In fact I feel like it was almost as far back as CEASAR-Agustus. The only difference is that back then I didn't believe the allowables could be so low. After seeing the results of misalignments and other problems caused by piping, I believe.
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
RE: External nozzle loads
I don't say meeting the API-610 allowables is easy, especially as I'm facing more and more systems where the suction piping can be twice the diameter of the pump nozzle.
Now, trying to hit 0 force and 0 moment, that's tough.
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
RE: External nozzle loads
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
RE: External nozzle loads
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
RE: External nozzle loads
I would like to recommend to the group that you look into getting a copy of an important WRC document:
Title: Guidelines for the Design and Installation of Pump Piping Systems.
V. A. Carucci and J. A. Payne
Welding Research Council Bulletin 449
You may recognize the names of the authors - well respected engineers with many years of experience. The title is very descriptive of the contents - this is 48 pages of common sense guidelines to designing piping so that the pumps will survive. This is a must read and a great reference for your technical library.
Best regards, John
RE: External nozzle loads
Slightly off-topic but my mention above of Vince Carucci compels me to remind fellow piping engineers of this web site:
ht
This is a .pdf (adobe) file (Overview of Process Plant Piping Systems) so just download it and read it.
Regards, John
RE: External nozzle loads
Please check for technical error in API 610 INTERPOLATION, this was noted in December 2006, in the Pipng Stress Engineer Group.
API 610 INTERPOLATION??????
Regards
Leonard Stephen Thill
L S THILL