×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
I'm a layperson who is in need of some basic information; is it possible to determine what steel has been used in the manufacture of an OEM crankshaft? If so, any idea as to what that would cost?

Thanks in advance and sorry if it's a silly question.

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

First use the Internet to find or at least narrow down the potential alloys used. I.e., by vehicle, engine, performance options. Maybe only cast nodular iron for stock engine; forged steel for high performance.
One source mentions
"5140, 4130, and 4340 steel"
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0710phr_crankshaft_tech/index.html

So, narrow done the possibilities. If more than one, then only need to test for a few specific alloying characteristics.

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
I'm aware of the various basic alloys; the problem is it is an OEM Honda motorcycle crankshaft and there appears to be a total dearth of information about what they use.

I know that everything from nodular iron to E4340 is used; how can I determine what has been used in such an OEM item when the manufacturer won't say?

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

rxmelaun;
If you have a spare or the original crankshaft that is out of the engine, you can have the material typed at a Metallurgical Lab for under $200.

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
Brilliant; thanks.

Rich

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

rxmelaun, there is another, older, method which I came across once: If you could get some samples of known crankshaft material and use a high speed grinder, then you could compare the sparks from the known types to the unknown type. Perhaps if you got someone to photograph the results it might help as well.

See the following links for further info:

www.ohiosteel.org/homepage/Spark%20Testing%20for%20Mystery%20Metals.pdf

metalworking.com/Dropbox/NAVY-repairmans-manual-Chapter03.pdf

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
Dave - thanks for that. amazingly, I found the same document last night after some subsequent searching.

What degree of accuracy can this laboratory typing achieve? For example, can it distinguish between say 1045 and 4340? Or is it more general than that? Thanks again.

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

A true metallurgical evaluation will tell you the exact alloy, the production method (casting, forging, cut grooves, rolled fillets, whatever), presence of surface hardening, etc.  Of course, this evaluation is destructive.  If you need non-destructive, then you are more limited.  There are techniques that can give you an idea of the composition, but it may not be able to differentiate low alloy steels.

I wouldn't bother with the spark evaluation.  That is more for sorting.  What would you do with the incredibly basic information it provides?

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
I am trying to determine if the crankshaft can be case hardened, or induction hardened, and/or shot peened; the shop needs to know the material so it knows what process(es) it can apply - if any. I want to know if it is worth pursuing as a crankshaft in a racing engine.

Or is it a nice doorstop?

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

An EDS scan of a few areas of the shaft will give you the approximate elemental composition of elements above an atomic # of 12.  You can get the percentages below 12, but they're a little spottier due to surface oxides and whatnot.  Probably an EDS scan and a couple pecs of material for carbon analysis will give you the ballpark range of elements, which can be compared to the standards.

That's been our procedure in the past for identifying foreign metallic material (customers sometimes like to jump to conclusions that every problem is our fault), and so far it's relatively accurate.  It'll probably cost in teh $200 range for something that basic.

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
So what lab are you with? Or should I try to find a local lab?

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

My favoirite lab is Steel Testing Laboratory here in Detroit. But they can only do hardness and 16 element chemistry, usually really low alloy low carbon steels.

A much more comprehensive evaluation can be done by IMR Test labs...

IMR Metallurgical Services
4120 Bishop Lane
Louisville KY 40218
PH: 502-810-9007
FX: 502-810-0380
imr(at)imrlouisville.com

One note:
Metallurgical Laboratories do exactly what you ask them, nothing more, nothing less. You must know the right questions to ask to get the answers you want.

Nick
I love materials science!

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
Nick,

Thanks;I'm going to contact the guys in Louisville.

Richard

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

We use Metallurgical Associates Inc. in Milwaukee.  If you're anywhere near a group of automotive/motorcycle/transmisson parts manufacturers, there will inevitably be a met lab nearby somewhere.  They get all kinds of goofy things to analyze.  Last time I was over there, it was a slew of engine components from Harley and some transmission components from OshKosh (trucks).

RE: Cost & Feasibility of Metallurgical Analysis

(OP)
Thanks - the guys in Louisville apparently also have automotive experience. I believe that several manufacturers have factories there. I know that the Corvette plant is in Bowling Green and I think that Honda also has a plant in the state.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources