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Asking Questions On-Line
8

Asking Questions On-Line

Asking Questions On-Line

(OP)
A colleague just introduced me to this document: How To Ask Questions The Smart Way.  Although it's more geared towards the IT world, I think the concepts are just as pertinent to this environment.  I recommend that everyone in the Eng-Tips community take some time to read it.

Of particular importance to this forum is the following section:
Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language
  It underscores how many of us feel about proper use of language, including spelling, grammar, capitalization, and punctuation; and how improper use reflects back on the author.

It's a good read.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

CC,
That document is just full of quotable quotes that apply here, like:

Quote:

Never assume you are entitled to an answer. You are not; you aren't, after all, paying for the service. You will earn an answer, if you earn it, by asking a substantial, interesting, and thought-provoking question — one that implicitly contributes to the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others

I like the recommendation that the document be linked to a forum help page.

David

RE: Asking Questions On-Line


Great link!


But where do I get one of those Bass-O-Matic file converters that they talk about in the section titled 'How to Not React Like a Loser'?

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Of all my high school teachers, it was my physics teacher who was the biggest stickler for clear presentation, correct grammar and spelling.  I can appreciate it, now.  I hate looking like an inarticulate boob in writing.  Email exponentially increases the speed at which that impression can be propagated.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Quote:

Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language
Am I the only one that sees the irony here?

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Definition 2 makes me wonder:

Why do people say "grammatically correct", when apparently (according to msn/encarta) they can just say "grammatical" instead?

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

One more reason why politically correct is not.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

electricpete,
Grammatical is an adjective.
Grammatically is an adverb.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

I thought the irony was that it is awkward to read and therefore not clear.

It took me more than one try to read it correctly.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Brevity excels.

however

re: "As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein"

If uncle al is correct doesn't the total area of darkness decrease?

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Unless of course the area is infinite.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

What is the point of that hyphen in "correctly-spelled"?

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

It makes it clear that both words modify the word "language".  Without the hyphen "correctly" applies to "spelled" and the meaning changes subtely.

David

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Excellent link!

-
Aercoustics.com

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Ah yes, Eric S Raymond.  As in "The Cathedral & the Bazaar".  A must read.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

jgailla - There was never any doubt about which was an adjective and which was an adverb, so I'm not sure why you're telling me that.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

What is the irony in 'Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language?'

To grammatically obfuscate whilst spelling correctly is good speechwriting.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

electricpete,
I guess I misunderstood.
My point was that grammatical does not necessarily mean grammatically correct, but apparently I'm wrong according to the article.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

5
(OP)
==> Why do people say "grammatically correct", when apparently (according to msn/encarta) they can just say "grammatical" instead?
I'm not sure they are the same, at least not in all cases.

"The document is grammatical." could mean that it was written grammatically correct, or it could mean that the document is about grammar.  A paper about grammar be a grammatical paper, and hopefully, it's also grammatically correct.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Good link.

This is the same guy who uncovered the Eric Conspiracy.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

zdas04,

Sorry, I believe you are wrong about the hyphen.  "Correctly" can only modify "spelled", not "language".  "Correctly language" makes no sense.  Besides, "subtely" is not a word.  

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

"As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein"

The circunference, is a perimeter. It will increase, no doubt!

Agustín Tomás

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

"As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein"

Translated..."The more you know, the less you know that you know."  Mikey

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

hokie66,
Sorry it took 10 days to reply, I missed that you had commented to me.

"Corectly-spelled Language" says that the "language" is spelled correctly.  If "correctly" is modifying "spelled" then the meaning is muddy at best.

David

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

zdas04:

Thanks for spelling corectly, correctly.  bigsmile

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

You know, not spell checking a post about correct spelling is really stupid.  I got in a rush and didn't take that two seconds.  A lesson for all posts.

David

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

<pedantic>
Hyphens are not used between adverbs ending in -ly and the adjectives they modify.  Check just about any English grammar book.

However, in correctly spelled language (or even correctly-spelled language, with the unnecessary hyphen), correctly is an adverb modifying spelled.  That is the only grammatical role it can have in that phrase.  It is an adverb and cannot modify the word language.  Correctly spelled is an adjectival phrase modifying language.  The language is correctly spelled.  The language is spelled correctly.  The spelling of the language is correct.

It is not the case that correctly and spelled both apply equally to language in that pharse.  In a phrase such as correct and succint language or correct, succinct language, both adjectives (not adverbs) would apply to language.  Note, however, that without the comma or and, a hierarchical structure comes into play; correct succinct language means "succinct language that is correct", not "language that is correct and succinct".

</pedantic>

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Hg,
I wish there were more English teachers with your knowledge.smarty

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

When is a hyphen a hyphen and when is it a dash?  I have a hyphen in my company e mail address and no matter which way I say it sometimes I have to use the other term to make someone understand which it is.  I won't even get into the problems of having to say it in other languages.

rmw

PS: spell checked before sending, David-only caught one thankfully.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

Hg,

Thanks for the help in my argument with David.  That is exactly what I wanted to say, I think.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

The key on your typewriter that looks like a little minus sign is a hyphen.

There are also dashes of the em and en variety (named because they are, or at least were, the width of the characters "m" and "n", respectively).  On typewriters, em dashes were typed using two hyphens in a row, and en dashes kind of went away and got replaced with hyphens.

And there is also in many fonts a separate minus sign symbol to add to the menagerie of little horizontal lines.

If you look do a search on hyphen "em dash" "en dash" you should be able to get plenty o' discourse on their respective uses.  Here's one:

http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/091502.htm

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

I am wondering why is spell in its past tense spelt wrong, "correctly spelled"? Was this a typographical error?

However, i do agree that writing with correct grammar, punctuation and spelling is essential to maintain some sense of distinction and reverence.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

"Spelled" is the common US spelling.

"Spelt" must be the old country version.  I wasn't familiar with the word before I came to Australia, but most American dictionaries list it an alternative spelling, and spell check seems to approve of either, which is not always the case with Anglo-US variances.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

So on the dash vs hyphen vs m and n thing...

I didn't understand something.

Seems like these keys were all related to typewriters and gone from electronic keyboards.  Is there a different ascii character from the different types of dashes?

If not, I'm wondering why it is a problem on email.. unless someone is sending an email by typewriter?

Obvsiously I there are some subtleties of the situation that are evading my grasp.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

HgTX - I wish my english teachers were as good as you!

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

I have seen the spell checker change the minus (or whatever it is) to a longer dash which I now realize was an 'm' dash.  I hadn't had my "hgtx 101" english lesson at that time so I didn't realize why it did what it did.

Now I don't know what it is that is in my e-mail address but when it was first given to me the term hyphen was used and I had to do a mental exercise to convert that to 'dash' in my simple mind.

It is still hard to convey when I say it in spanish; they usually want to clarify whether or not it is in the middle of the line or below the line.

rmw

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

When is a hyphen a hyphen and when is it a dash?

When is a hyphen a dash? Never. They are different characters. Hyphens will typically occur within words, hyphenated words. Dashes will typically occur between phrases.

Is there a different ascii character from for? the different types of dashes?

ASCII is a set of characters based on seven bit values and so it is a very limited character set — so limited in fact that Europe tends to use 8 bit character sets and encodings and different parts of Europe use different characters sets and encodings, as they tend to run out.

− minus          3−2=1
− (unary) minus  3+2=1

‒ (figure dash)    Dial 123‒4567
– ndash          For ages 3–5
— mdash          indicates a parenthetical thought—like this
― quotation dash ― Hello John

The figure dash above isn't displaying properly on my old computer as I haven't got an appropriate font installed, but I am hoping I'm sending the right thing. Anybody else with a computer as old as my kid might have similar problems viewing this.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

I normally use a colon instead of an mdash.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

My personal pet peeve - not providing sufficient context in the question, and/or providing zero context in the subject.

This pet peeve extends to nearly all communications, written, verbal, and other (I consider email in the "other" category).  We just should not assume the person we're communicating with has the same background, or train of thought when we make a statement or pose a question.

RE: Asking Questions On-Line

"Seems like these keys were all related to typewriters and gone from electronic keyboards.  Is there a different ascii character from the different types of dashes?"

Yes, there are different ASCII characters.  It's not that there were different keys on the typewriter keyboard and not on the electronic keyboard.  It's that there *had* been a distinction in typesetting, and different keys were *not* provided on typewriter keyboards, so the distinction faded.  Then with the introduction of electronic keyboards, it became possible once again to generate the variety of characters that typesetters use, so the question came back up again.  

Not only are there hyphens and two different dashes, but minus sign can be yet another little horizontal line.  I think the difference can be line thickness and also height within the line.  You'll also find "plus sign" symbols that are different from the plus sign you can type directly from your keyboard.  And then there's the difference between superscript "o", the ordinal symbol, and the degree symbol.

Lots to worry about if you choose to.


Sorry, mshimko, I know you were trying to bring this back around to the proper topic...

Hg

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