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6

More work!

More work!

(OP)
Hi,

I was wondering if any one could give me some idea about doing some part time work after 5 pm, etc. I work full time as an structural engineer. I have some free time after work. I am sure that there are firms who are over flowing with projects. I think these firms may be a good source to start. But, how to proceed? Do they really hire part time engineers after hours? What are your thoughts?

By the way, I am a registered professional engineer (civil).

RE: More work!

2
Shin25,

In order to do this you really need to be able to work from home, including all the relevant codes, design resources e.t.c.

It is not really practical to expect to start work in another office at 5:30.

Depending on the type of work, you may need your own analysis software or you may be able to drop in to the other office on a weekend to do the analysis.

Also be prepared to do some late nights as these projects are usually overdue before they give them to an outsider. For me it was never an even number of hours after work, it was always an intense couple of days and then a lapse.

csd

RE: More work!

(OP)
csd72,
As always, it's nice to read your postings.
But, how to approach these kind of firms? Where to find these over worked people? How to offer my help? It sounds like, I need to have an office at my home. With all these extra work, can I have a decent family life?

RE: More work!

I would also check with your current employer.  Many (I know mine does) will not allow you to moonlight, either for yourself or another firm.  

RE: More work!

Get contract work that pays hourly and overtime.  No need for second job.

RE: More work!

Check out www.getafreelancer.com.

B. Long
Dell Precision 380
P 4 2.80 GHz
2.5 Gig Ram
Solidworks Office 2007 Sp. 2.2
AutoCAD 2005

RE: More work!

(OP)
Draftsman101,
What is the web site about? Can you elaborate little more?

StructuralEIT,
I think, what I do with my free time should be my business only, as long as I am not using my company resources, company time, and company secrets I should be alright.

RE: More work!

Shin25- what you do on "your own time" just might be your employers business.  If you are intending to do work which would compete with your employer, or perform work for competing companies, then it bloody well is your employers' business, and your ethics flags should be waving.  If they are not, then you need some education and maybe some better mentoring.  

You are proposing a Catch-22 because in one of your posts above, you ask "will this affect my family life?"  Geez, what do you think?  After 5PM it is your time, and your family time, don't you have any hobbies, other interests, or are you a worshipper at the altar of $$ at all costs?  A well rounded engineer doesn't get that way by blowing himself out with excessive work.

RE: More work!

Shin-
You may well think that what you do on your own time is your own business, but your company may or may not agree.  As I said, my company has a STRICT policy against this practice.  I can't say I know the exact reasons for the policy, but I am sure the reasons cited by GMcD are among them.  Additionally, you would not want to find yourself in a meeting with one of your principals asking why you are moonlighting for the competing firm on the other side of town when your only defense is "what I do on my own time is my own business" - especially if they do have a policy against regardless of your knowledge (or lack of) the policy.  
It would be in your best interest to check on it.

RE: More work!

Also check in the engineering rules for your state to see if they address the issue in anyway.  Moonlighting may or may not be acceptable, but it shouldn't be a matter of sneaking around behind someone's back to do it.

RE: More work!

2
40 hours a week ought to be plenty, particularly on an engineer's salary.  (Whatever happend to all this technology and efficiency resulting in SHORTER work weeks for us????)

Go home, play with the kids, play basketball with the guys, mentor in a Big Brother/Big Sister program.

It will always be true:  No one ever laid on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

RE: More work!

(OP)
As I have mentioned in my earlier post "will not use company secretes", this probably explains that my afterwork involvement will not put other companies in competition with my current employer.

For an example, if I do bridges, my afterworks mostly be buildings, etc. Will this still conflict with my current employer's interests?

RE: More work!

shin25,

There are 2 ends to the money equation, incoming and outgoing. If you want to increase your effective income you can probably more easily do this by reducing your outgoings.

My wife works with a lawyer earning 200k plus and he is always broke - purely because he is not managing the outgoings.

Decide what your priorities are in life, then minimise your spending on anything else. Buying cofee, lunches, and afterdinner drinks are a money drain - make your own. I once moved to a cheaper rental area to free up some more disposable income.

This is the best way to get a bit more free money without losing out on your family life.

csd

RE: More work!

Teach!  Where?

Local tech school or college
Kaplan Test Prep (teach courses for SAT, GMAT, GRE, etc.)
Sylvan Learning Center

I've done the Kaplan thing.  It was fun.

RE: More work!

I don't think you guys realize the need for structural / civil engineers (especially in the SE US). You would do more service to your community by helping local firms with the flood of projects. Check with your current employer first (they may have a need for you) and check on moonlighting rules from your employer and state.  Then start asking around or post yourself online (craigslist maybe). You need to make sure you are covered under their insurance or you will need E&O for yourself. Figure out the tax, insurance, and when you are going to take phone calls issues and you will be well on your way.

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: More work!

(OP)
I think money is a factor in life, sometimes big and sometimes not so big-
We need extra money to have a nice vacation, to buy a nice jewelery for wife or throw a nice birthay party for our sons, etc. I guess all these are redundant, but can anybond not accept these facts?

Moonlighting or not, as long as I am not threatening my company's business, getting more involved with various other projects will only improve my efficiency and problem solving capability. This personal improvement will also help the current employer. As he will be having a much better engineer at no additional expense.

As some of you have mentioned, this will hurt the family life. I guess, then the thought of after hour work is a double ended sword!

RE: More work!

Frankly, I think you are extremely naive to think that you're not helping your competition.  By providing an extra body, regardless in what capacity, allows a potential competitor to encroach, so while you're happily deluding yourself into thinking your moonlight company isn't competing, they just freed up a body to go bid on a new bridge project.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: More work!

(OP)
IRstuff,

You probably did not read my 4th posting from the top.

RE: More work!

Quote:

As I have mentioned in my earlier post "will not use company secretes", this probably explains that my afterwork involvement will not put other companies in competition with my current employer.

For an example, if I do bridges, my afterworks mostly be buildings, etc. Will this still conflict with my current employer's interests?

Well, where I am as a professional engineer per my code of ethics I am not allowed to moonlight without the knowledge and consent of my current employer. I would also add that it may be to a judge or jury the fine technicalities between civil engineers will be lost ("do both companies do civil engineering?"... "uhm.. yeah").

I also signed an agreement with my current employer which says what is and is not acceptable...

So, if nothing else, I'd suggest you make sure that your current employer knows what you are planning on doing -- preferably with agreement in writing from the right person.

-SLH

RE: More work!

Shin25,

go for it. I also believe that you should be able to moonlight if you want. If they dont pay you enough to cover your needs then you should be able to obtain extra income.

You can order free business cars that can be given out whenever you meet a potential source of work. Conferences and local ASCE meeting are a good place to meet people.

csd

RE: More work!

StressGuy is right. "It will always be true:  No one ever laid on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office".

Working long hours non-stop gets old, real fast.

One reason why employers prohibilt moonlighting is because of the potential liability. A few years ago, we had to take a course from our professional liability carrier and they explained why they didn't like moonlighting: In the event of a claim against your secondary employer or you acting on his behalf  the insurance carrier for the engineer's primary employer could be held liable.

RE: More work!

bridgebuster,

This ridiculous legal situation has gotten out of control. If my industry was run like the legal profession, buildings would be falling down left right and center.

The word is then, sue anyone who has a link to the fault even if they had nothing to do with it, as long as they have insurance.

Our societies need to petition the government for change on these types of legal loopholes.

But in reality does this apply if the person is moonlighting under another companies insurance? If so then this would mean that someone couldnt work part time for 2 different companies, which sounds crazy.

It does make sense though if a person is issuing stamped drawings without their own insurance - I can see the problem here.

csd

RE: More work!

There is something that doesn't make sense here- if, as Shin25 says, that every engineering company is super-busy in his area (?) and he's only working till 5PM and looking for more work- I have to question what his company is doing- are they not that busy?  Or is Shin25 not very busy in his particular geographic location/time zone, and wants to do "remote source" work for busy firms outside his geographic location/time zone?  Usually, if other firms are very busy, the salaries rise naturally as firms want to keep their people, and avoid them being poached by other busy firms, so there shouldn't be a need to pad your salary with more overtime.

A quote from Shin25: "We need extra money to have a nice vacation, to buy a nice jewelery for wife or throw a nice birthay party for our sons, etc. I guess all these are redundant, but can anybond not accept these facts?"

Well, I personally cannot accept these "facts".  You "need"?? extra money for these frills?  Caught up in the conspicuous consumerism culture are we?  Maybe re-adjust your "needs" and evaluate what's really important- family time with a few less perks, or work all the time and not have time to see your wife's jewelery or make it to your kid's birthday?  Having more money to be able to get more "stuff" may not be the right solution at the end of the day.

RE: More work!

csd72,

The insurance company said it didn't matter, insurance or not. The company I was with had to agree to adopt a no outside employment policy in order to qualify for a lower rate.

I suppose if the person is covered by insurance under the second job it might be harder to sue, but I remember a statement that an attorney made during a jury interview:

"People say why do you sue everybody; that's because we need to find out how many people are responsibile."

About 15 years ago we were sued for a construction accident; one worker killed and one injured. We had no involvement whatsoever with the construction; also the accident was due to the contractor's means and method.

Why were we sued: Our name was on the plans. Eventually, we were released from the suit but it still cost us over $50 grand; a lot of money for a small firm.

The nice thing about being a lawyer is the ability to invent work. It's too bad we can't go out and build a bridge or a building and then ask some one to pay us.

RE: More work!

But if the companies names are not on the plans, how can they sue that company?

RE: More work!

shin-
I am not saying it is right or wrong for a company to have a policy against moonlighting, but many do. As others have pointed out, if you truly feel like there is no problem with what you are doing, then why not tell your employer?  Additionally, as others have pointed out, your state may have ethical issues with this.  It would certainly be in your best interest to make sure all involved know what you are doing.

RE: More work!

While I appreciate that the employment situation in the US is quite different to the UK, I think the easiest way to get around this problem you have created for yourself has already been mentioned: become a contractor on an hourly rate with paid O/T.
 

----------------------------------
  I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem...

RE: More work!

Hello Shin,

StructuralEIT makes an excellent point. I am not sure where you are working. Here in Ontario an engineer is required to tell their employer about any moonlight work that they do, even if it does not compete with them. Here is an excerpt from the code of ethics:

 A practitioner who is an employee-engineer and is contracting in the practitioner's own name to perform professional engineering work for other than the practitioner's employer, must provide the practitioner's client with a written statement of the nature of the practitioner's status as an employee and the attendant limitations on the practitioner's services to the client, must satisfy the practitioner that the work will not conflict with the practitioner's duty to the practitioner's employer, and must inform the practitioner's employer of the work.

RE: More work!

csd72 - Professional liability idemnifies both the company and the engineer.

How does the lawyer for the plaintiff know that the primary employer has nothing to do with the problem?

Also, what do think will happen when the jury hears a lawyer say to the defendant "...but your employer has a policy against moonlighting..." or "...why you didn't obtain your employer's consent to take a second job..." ?

RE: More work!

This legal situation is insane.

So they just going around sueing people like a loose cannon just in case they can get something, even if they have no idea about any connection.

In that case, the only solution is for more people to start couter sueing them to get reimbursement for their expenses.

csd

RE: More work!

shin25,

I don't know your situation and it is probably completely different than mine.  Before I signed on to my current firm, I ammended my contract with them to allow me to do moonlighting work for certain specifically named companies I was doing business with them at the time.  This got all of the problems out of the way quickly as it was terms for my employement agreement.  

I recently had to add one to the list and wrote a nice little letter explaining (again) that at no time would I be using company resources, blah, blah, blah..., at no time would they be liable for my aggreements with my new client, etc.

Off the record I explained to my boss the extents of the projects and the revenue, only because he was more interested into what I was getting into.

Currently I am officially employed at 4 companies in my greater metro area.  Hasn't been a problem... yet.

My situation is probably easier as I am not an engineer and have never played one on tv either, so I don't get into the professional liablity situations that you might encounter.

Zuccus

RE: More work!

csd72,

 "I also believe that you should be able to moonlight if you want. If they dont pay you enough to cover your needs then you should be able to obtain extra income"

I seriously doubt any engineer does not make enough to cover his/her "needs".  A person's "wants" may be another story.  If someone does not feel they get paid enough, that is not the company's problem.  If you agree to work for a particular salary, then how is the company at fault?

Whether or not you should moonlight is not the most important question.  If your company does not allow it, then you either don't moonlight or you can go find another job.  No matter how you justify it, a lie is a lie.  Going behind the company's back when you are not supposed to is a lie.

RE: More work!

jaypartain,

Where I live we would be struggling on my salary alone, and we dont have children.

To a certain extent you have to take what is the going rate even if you are not happy about it.

csd

RE: More work!

Quote:

The nice thing about being a lawyer is the ability to invent work. It's too bad we can't go out and build a bridge or a building and then ask some one to pay us.

That called a developer.  Of courese, not so much on the bridge side.

RE: More work!

If you have free time, what about getting your employer to pay for your Msc, MsEng, or MBA. Then get a raise...

and you dont even have to get into the gray area of ethic's...

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