How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
(OP)
Hello everyone,
One of our customers has asked us to put an electric motor in one of our cars for him. You can see the cars we make here at out website:
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
so you can get an idea of what we are trying to do.
I have searched high and low and I have settled on using the rear electric motor out of a Toyota Highlander. It is cheap, and undoubtedly bullet proof. It comes complete with electric motor and differential as a unit.
I had all the industrial electronic control (CNC stuff) salesmen come by to look at the motor and no one seems able to make it work--let alone even make it move. I then went to the internet and there is precious little information on actually controlling an AC PM motor.
The motor is a 600 volt unit with 8 poles. It has a Hall Effect sensor on it which seems to be one of the sources of our trouble.
We are really fine when it comes to high performance automotive alloy selections, mechanical engineering, and design--but, frankly, electrons are quite mysterious to us, but I am determined to learn, if possible.
Does anyone have any idea on where to point me? Books? Websites? Any help would be greatly appreciated. We prefer to keep the work in house.
One of our customers has asked us to put an electric motor in one of our cars for him. You can see the cars we make here at out website:
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
so you can get an idea of what we are trying to do.
I have searched high and low and I have settled on using the rear electric motor out of a Toyota Highlander. It is cheap, and undoubtedly bullet proof. It comes complete with electric motor and differential as a unit.
I had all the industrial electronic control (CNC stuff) salesmen come by to look at the motor and no one seems able to make it work--let alone even make it move. I then went to the internet and there is precious little information on actually controlling an AC PM motor.
The motor is a 600 volt unit with 8 poles. It has a Hall Effect sensor on it which seems to be one of the sources of our trouble.
We are really fine when it comes to high performance automotive alloy selections, mechanical engineering, and design--but, frankly, electrons are quite mysterious to us, but I am determined to learn, if possible.
Does anyone have any idea on where to point me? Books? Websites? Any help would be greatly appreciated. We prefer to keep the work in house.





RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Likely not going to do it with books.
An AC PM motor requires accurate commutation of the supply power.
Another words, the motor has to be 'rewired' hundreds of times a minute, electronically, at the exact correct moments. The Hall Effect sensor is used to locate the particular wiring scheme "of the moment".
How many wires are there?
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
The Hall sensors shouldn't be a problem. They do help, actually.
The CNC guys are not used to that kind of sensors, though. The need encoders and sometimes resolvers. That's why it didn't work with their stuff.
There are quite a few suppliers of electronics for such motors. Googling things like "Hall commutated" produces a nice number of hits, 49 when I tried.
There's a book at
http://w
There is also a guy in Italy that has been doing this for "centuries". He is really good. Now doing work on plastic rotors with rare-earth powder for high-torque PM machines.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I'm sorry, I should have said it was a 3 phase unit. It has 3 wires going to it. Yes, the CNC guys have no idea what to do with a Hall Effect sensor. I think they were out of their field of knowledge and shooting blanks.
I am a pretty determined guy and electrons are one of those last frontiers I have very little knowledge about--but want to know more. Books don't scare me (I have literally read a thousand pages on the subject of PM motors and controls--but not much sticks!
So, I have a pretty good basic (and I do mean basic) understanding of how PM motors work on paper, but I can't find any info on how to really make it work in real life.
Gunnar,
Thanks for the link on the book. I will check to see if I can find it. My wife thinks I am crazy to read such things at night. It is such a fascinating field I know so little about.
Do you know any more info on the "guy in Italy?" Maybe I will stop by on my next trip to visit my factory in Poland.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Would you be interested in hands-on learning how to control these motors? Willing to maybe go to a one day course somewhere?
Not sure where you will find out how to raise the power. By the way, that is an extremely hazardous realm with lethality written all over it.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I am sure I have a million problems--most I don't even know about. But, you have to eat them one at a time until nothing else stands in your way--unless I die first. (That would be from old age, not a SHOCK!) I know there are extreme hazards with such voltages and I do appreciate the warning. I can use all the help I can get.
I thought I would first get the motor running from the wall, and then do the testing for regen, accelerator control, etc. Then I would figure out how to get batteries to power the thing. I think the battery power problem won't be as hard to overcome as I have several friends (professors) at the local university (BYU) who already have an electric car and know how to do that stuff. They just don't know how to do it with a PM motor. They use AC induction motors. We are trying to keep the weight to an absolute minimum and PM motors are 1/2 the weight from what I have found.
I would be happy to go to a course or to learn this stuff hands on...but where? I am open to any and all suggestions.
David
ps. anyone need any help in material selection for high performance suspensions on cars??? Now there is a place I can help.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I'm not seeing that class as being available at the moment. You can always inquire and hire them to show up and give you the class. Sorry.
Moving on.. What HP is the Prion motor? Yes you may like the weight of it but jesh!!
If you went with a commercial 3ph 400Hz motor you could buy sophisticated VFDs that would handle all your needs at prices found in a highly competitive product field. I could easily see you spending 1/6th the money and 1/12th the time required for your present course of action.
In my opinion you are making a serious economic/production misstep sticking with the Prion motor.
Realize that a 400Hz motor is 6 times smaller than a 60Hz motor for the same HP.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Sorry, he lives in Switzerland. You will understand the mistaken nationlity when you see his address.
http://
He was one of the guys behind ABB:s drive technology. But is now working as an independent consultant. Hungarian/Swedish/Swiss - a truly international character.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
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100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
The Highlander motor is 50KW. The whole unit only weighs 90 pounds. I will look into the Microchip Motor Control seminar to see if there is anything I can find. Thank you very much for the tip.
I am certainly not opposed to using a commercial unit and I will definitely look into it. My big hesitation is Toyota used what they did for a reason...one I most certainly don't understand all the ramifications of. I have enormous respect for Toyota's engineering. They regularly do things the Not-So-Big-Three don't (or won't) think is possible, but that is a discussion for another day.
Sorry for being naive, but I thought the speed of the motor was controlled by the frequency/hertz signal it was given??? If you up the frequency you up the speed of the motor--or so I understood. So, how does a 400 hz motor give any advantage over X hz motor when you are varying the frequency anyway to even drive the motor? I admit my knowledge fades quickly when speaking about electrons and I appreciate your willingness to even answer.
Gunnar,
Thank you for the article. I will look into it tomorrow.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
The size of a motor is mostly controlled by its magnetic circuit size requirements. The size is a direct function of the frequency the motor is designed for.
A 400Hz motor will scale to approximately 60/400 of an equivalent 60Hz motor's size. This is why aircraft all standardized on 400Hz - small, very high power motors.
Its a shame the whole US isn't 400Hz so all the transformers and motors would be much, much smaller. The 400Hz has other serious negative ramifications in the area of power transmission over distances. Not a problem in aircraft or cars.
I went to an army base during an open house and looked at a Field Hospital. I asked what powered it and was lead around back to a box that was about 4 ft long, 4 feet tall, and 3 feet wide, with a small black hose running across the large lawn from a deuce and a half tanker. I asked how many kW it put out. Figuring that box.. Not more than 15kW. The operator said 75kW and opened the box. I was SHOCKED! The generator was maybe 16 inches long and 10 inches in diameter. It was being driven by a gas turbine that was about twice that size. I was incredulous! "How can that be 75kW!?", I shouted over the large turbine whine. The Corporal smiled and said, "400Hz, the whole hospital runs on 400Hz".
As for the Toyota I couldn't agree more about the success and creativity they have shown in their hybrids.
The problem you are going to run up against is that many things in the automotive realm are heavily designed for a very narrow specific task. The entire design; car/brakes/controller/motor/batteries are totally optimized to suck every last penny out of the design and provide precisely what is required to get the job done.
The electrical stuff is driven in this direction with huge pressure on the vendors and the production for penny shaving to the max.
So along comes you.. You want to move this motor over for your application. Are you willing to spend a small fortune to create a different controller to run that motor effectively the way you need it to run? What happens when you discover that the motor chokes when you use it exclusively for many miles? Especially after sinking a fortune into it's controller.
I don't mean to throw cold water(saltwater) on your plan but I really think you're biting off more than you can possibly realize in the development realm here. I'd be one thing if you were going to build hundreds of thousands of these things but a one off? I bet Toyota spent far more than a million dollars US designing their controller.
If you really, really must use that motor. Then use everything else too. Controller, engine, battery, and motor. Otherwise go for off-the-shelf with industrial proven stuff to be assuredly successful - in your customer's lifetime.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Please let us all know how this works out for you! and don't forget FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Keith,
First I want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to write to me. I must sound like I am crazy--which may be true! Please throw all the cold water my way you can find. It is much less painful now than after I find myself on the side of the road wondering where all the smoke is coming from.
I certainly realize attempting to redesign something that took Toyota millions (I actually hear the number is closer to a billion from my friends at Ford) to develop is quite daunting if not impossible. I probably didn't explain myself adequately. I was actually hoping more toward getting a controller off the shelf that would work, or be modified (without too much difficulty). That is why I called in the CNC guys. (We have several CNC machines and get along well with the service guys). But, they couldn't make the motor so much as move.
That said, I will be the first one the throw the Toyota motor out the window if there is something else out there that might work. It is widely believed in the electric car world there is NOTHING off the shelf that would remotely work for an electric car traction motor at a reasonable weight. I have found a few that are extremely heavy.
Now, that doesn't mean there actually IS nothing that will work. It is just BELIEVED there is nothing that will work. I am happy to try 400 Hz motor or ANYTHING else that might work. My goal is to drive down the road with electrons--NOT to figure out how to do it with a Toyota motor.
My first choice (over a year ago now) was to actually use the controller, motor, and batteries from the Toyota. But, we found out that would not work. Last year for SEMA we built a prototype car for Ford using their new 3.5 liter Duratec motor. It was a nightmare to get it done. The CAN will not allow the motor to run when things are disconnected--such as the ABS, seats (believe it or not), fan, airbags, etc. Ford eventually had to assign an electrical engineer specifically to us to get the car running. We had to go back and forth with 5 flashes of the computer before we got everything running. Of course, in this case, that would be hopeless with Toyota (unless I can convince them to let us do the car for SEMA!!!)
So, any advise on where to get a 400 Hz 50-75 KW motor? I would hope to use a PM motor as all of them I have found are 1/2 the weight of an induction motor. But I am open to ANY suggestions you may have.
HCBFlash,
Yes, I have spoken at length with the guys at Tesla motors. They could not have been nicer. However, they use AC induction motors and very far behind on their own projects and can not help with our project. Their motor is twice the weight of the Toyota motor. Now, in the end, I will certainly use an induction motor if I have to. It is better than pushing--or dreaming which is what I am doing now.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I will use 3 phase drive -- at present will probably use Azure (formerly Solectria).
Do NOT let 3 phase drive throw you off or in a big tizzy. It is nothing new. We have been doing it since Tesla and Westinghouse in industry. We have been doing varible freq drive (VFD) for about the last 30. Railroads have been doing it for 20 years, nearly all electric forklifts produced for about the last 5 years are 3 phase drive.
Now for your dilemna.
All the above are generally induction motors ie squirrel cage. You are using permanent magnet 3 phase also known as brushless DC - who cooked up that title?? The nearest comparison to the PM 3 phase is a synchronous. Now in an induction the rotor does NOT have to rotate at same RPM as stator (this is "slip") in fact it cannot because with no slip to make a long story short there is no torque. NOT true with synchronous the rotor MUST be at same RPM as stator.
With the PM 3 phase the controller does a bunch of calculations based on magnetizing current (ie motor not mechanically coupled) compared to total current when loaded. The torque is also calculated from these. The controller must know the mechanical position of the shaft and must have some kind of encoder to sense that. From these two (uhhh three) basic values the relative positions of the stator field and the rotor are derived to give the angle between the two and then control voltage and current to make sure the two are "in phase" so to speak.
We are now rapidly reaching the end of my knowledge.
So lets try to get pragmatic.
You are using motor and axle from Toyota. Are you using the associated controller ie VFD.
Before they were taken out of previous vehicle were they working OK AND did you see that??
Did you take them out?
Did you take good notes on how stuff was conntected and MARK your wires before disconnect?
Do you have the software to reprogram the controller?
Do you have the manuals?
Do you have the prints and drawings?
Hopefully you can say YES to all above. If so you are in good shape.
NEXT
Read the manual. RTFM again. RTFM - AGAIN.
Now if all still does not come together get real friendly with your Toyota guy - Especially the MECHANIC who works on these. He has the experience, the manuals, the tools, the software, etc etc.
Let me know how you make out. I thought about doing what you are doing -- salvaging guts out of a Toyota and sticking them in something else. Not a bad idea hot rodders been doing it for how long?
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Like the LiIon battery in my Sony laptop. The battery choked and I tore it apart and replaced the cells but the communications where damaged somehow. Since the battery no longer talked to the computer Nah DOH! was going to happen.
David I will ask about 400Hz motor suppliers. Off hand I don't know who they are.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I think David mentioned that they tried to run the Toyota stuff but unless everything down to the seat belts, door locks, and anything else, is there, it's not going to work. The problem is that you can't just jump this, and that, signal because most things are now talking CAN Bus and need a bunch of hand shaking. Not easy. (At all!)
UNQUOTE
Yeah I saw where they tried to do what you said BUT that was Ford equipment. Hopefully (I doubt it now that you mention it) but maybe Toyota does not do all those dang interlocks.
OK so it is CANBUS. First my ignorance will become most blatant with a few questions.
CANBUS is communications protocol hardware and software.
AND one must wire components to it
AND program the communication addresses and all that.
THEREFORE what was put together can be disassembled
IF you have the software (this may be the brick wall on which to beat brains out)
HMMM this is food for thoght for when I do my 3phase VFD auto project. Azure does have a few interlocks. I will try to make the connections very accessible for troubleshooting ease.
Dan Bentler
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Dan,
I just bought the motor straight from the dealer so I didn't get all the goodies with it. I figured I'd just plug it in...ha, ha, ha. 1000 pages of research later I am beginning to realize how complicated these babies are. I do have the manuals, etc for the Toyota, but they are liberally sprinkled with "Proprietary to Toyota" and I can't say I blame them. As for using their computer, I see that as no hope. My experience with Ford (and Toyota is WAY ahead of them) tells me it won't be possible. There is too much hand shaking communication that goes on. Literally, we had to turn off the seat belts and the seat heater in our prototype car for Ford. The days of taking parts and "Hot Rodding" them are rapidly coming to a close.
As for the mechanic who works on these for Toyota...well, he told me they were under strict orders to not touch anything that goes wrong. They just send codes back to Japan and then remove and replace as directed with the bad parts going back to Japan. Toyota is very protective of their family jewels and I can't say I blame them.
We actually never tried to run the Toyota stuff. We tried to get the Toyota motor running with industrial stuff first and failed. Then we did the Ford SEMA car and realized it was hopeless to cannibalize a Toyota.
Keith,
Thanks for doing a little rooting around for me. I truly appreciate it.
Dan,
I think keeping connections accessible is always a good idea!
I will do more digging tomorrow. Thank you all again.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I do not think I would throw in towel on Toyota yet.
HOWEVER
In your shoes I think I would do some comparison shopping.
Contact Azure and enquire into AC55 motor and 445 controller. They sent me the manuals and all and I have not spent a dime yet. While Azure will not sell to me (an individual) they will sell to you (a company).
The most specific page is
http://www.azuredynamics.com/FlexibleComponent.htm
look at controllers and motors.
Dan Bentler
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
To drive one of the motors, a three phase current drive is required. This is no different than what a VFD Vector Drive uses.
AC PM motors are usually made in smaller sizes for servo appliciations and I don't know where one would find a 50kW amplifier, there is simply no demand.
The motor can be driven using the Hall sensors in six step mode but I would think that this would generate too much acoustical noise. It is more common to use the Halls for initial start up and switching to an AC current drive using an incremental encoder for position information. If an absolute encoder or resolver is used, the Hall sensors are not required.
The amplifier and motor are used in torque mode. The accelerator asks for torque (current). Braking requests negative torque which causes regenerative braking and battery charging.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
The Azure motor is 233 pounds! The Toyota motor AND differential unit is only 90. There is no comparison. My ultimate goal was/is to have two of the Toyota units on board. One in the front and one in the rear. As you can see, weight rapidly becomes a heavy problem. Considering I can make a gasoline 500-800 horsepower motor that only weighs 350 pounds you can see where the problem is. (500 hp for the street and 800 if you want to see parts coming out of the side of the block as you do the 1/4 mile). I need to keep the motor as light as possible because there are still a ton (well 500 pounds) of batteries that have to be added.
sreid,
Said 500-800 horsepower motor is $25,000. The Toyota motor AND differential unit was $1200 from the Toyota dealer. I almost passed out. I can't buy a set of head for our cars for $1200. The cost of permanent magnets is high, but not nearly as high as exhaust systems, water systems, CNC porting of heads, etc.
You have hit the nail right on the head! I can't find the amplifier! I have looked and looked. Now you all know why I am posting here! From all I have read a VFD SHOULD drive the motor. All the salesmen that came by thought so too...
As for acoustical noise, I am at the point I don't care. I just want to motor to move. I will worry about noise later. In an open car like this, noise is really not an issue.
I would be interested in talking to you further. You can look me up on our website.
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
if you are so inclined.
Now, as a true Hot Rodder and CNC whacko--if I can't find a 50 KW amplifier, can't I make one? Hence, the original reason for my post. It is hard to explain all of this stuff writing posts so lots of stuff falls through the cracks. The road eventually lead me to using a traditional CNC industrial unit to send signals to an amplifier that would in turn drive the motor. But, as I said, the Hall Effect sensor seemed to throw sand in the works and the salesmen gave up. Any suggestions?
Keith,
I am still confused about the 400 Hz motors. From what I have read (and I readily admit I may understand everything wrong) you vary the frequency (hence variable frequency drive) to accelerate the motor--so I am not sure why a 400 Hz motor would be of any advantage in an electric car. In all my reading I have never seen a traction motor referred to by X Hz. Now, for a turbine generator that is only spinning one speed I can see the advantages of 400 Hz over 60 Hz.
From all I have read and heard, the Toyota motor should be able to be run by a VFD--the problem is getting one that will talk to a Hall Effect sensor and one that can take 50KW.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I clearly understand your dilemma.
Re: 400Hz
You are concerned about weight. Justifiably so!
You are disturbed by the weight of the Azure motor (233 pounds). All you need recognize is that an equivalent 400Hz motor would weigh (60/400) x 233 = 35 pounds (call it 50).
That's what I'm trying to get across.
Re: VFD
If it were me I'd screw the hall effect sensor. I would go get an encoder, Heck, I may have two you can use in my storage cabinet. (I bought 3 nice ones and then the job changed.)
Go buy a Vector Drive, hook the encoder up and give it a try. You will need a vector drive with it's DC bus available.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Can you post the name plate detials of the Toyota motor voltage, current, speed.
The advantage of the 400Hz motor is the power density, it will be smaller than an equivalent 50Hz motor, therfore lighter.
It may be posibble to use a standard VFD on the motor, but you'll have to install a new feedback encoder if the existing hall effect device does not switch the way a VFD expects it to. The motor is from a Hybrid vehicle, engine braking on that car is done via the internal conbustion engine. Regenerative braking on an electric car is limited as the batteries can't accept current as fast as they can deliver it, you may want to have a braking resistor which a standard VFD will be able to control easily.
Standard VFD's are designed for switch rooms and would require modification to work in an automotive environment. Looking at the Azure reference Dan sent their drive is already set up for automotive use. Talk to them about using their VFD on your PM motor.
The local engineering school here has retrofitted a Toyota MR2 with a 25kW 50Hz induction motor and standard VFD. They retained the MR2 automatic transmission and run it selected in low all the time (or reverse). Goes well and looks good, a PM motor would improve starting torque at standstill.
More food for thought??
Cheers Niallnz
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Thanks for the continuing help! As you all can probably see, I need it.
If you don't mind, I will contact you tomorrow. I like your encoder idea. I have thought of it before, but no one I found really knew how to do it.
niallnz,
From all I have read, (and my conversations with AC Propulsion--the guys who lent their technology to Tesla), the batteries have no problem taking all the regen you can give them. I, of course, don't KNOW that, just relaying what I have heard. I have thought of the resistor, just in case. I figured I could turn the headlights on as a last resort if all else failed. (We are just talking about prototype stuff right now, NOT, production/customer worthy products.)
I will post pictures of the insides of the motor tomorrow on our website so you can see them. Yes I took it apart! :) That way I could start asking questions on what all the little parts on my table were and why so many things started falling out! No, actually, I was VERY intrigued by the simplicity of the motor. It is nowhere near as complicated as an internal combustion motor. When I opened the motor, I knew I was looking at the future. I just didn't understand what I was looking at, but I did understand I very much wanted to.
Of course, I found out what a Hall Effect sensor was by taking it off--and losing the orientation! Oh well. You can't learn to swim with out getting wet. I just hope the water isn't full of Great Whites.
Thank you all for your help!
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
niallnz; I bet the regenerative braking on the Toyota is limited because they actually have relatively little storage which goes hand-in-hand with low large-current absorption rates. Given a sizable amount of lead acid batteries able to be the primary energy source for 50+ miles I bet you could cram most regen successfully into the batteries.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I hear you davidbeach it may not be the full Monty on weight and a gear box may be required. So be it.
DKirkham;
I have a couple of MODEL 220C Hollow Shaft Encoders made by Encoder Products Company, Sand Point, ID
This 220C has been superseded by the 225 which appears to have a higher allowed input voltage 24V verses 15V nothing else matters much.
The 220C s I have look exactly like the pictured "Standard 225A".
http://www.encoder.com/techbulletins/TB-117.pdf
Mine have 400 pulses per revolution
Can turn 4000RPM
Bore size 0.375"
Take 5-15VDC
Consume 25mA
Square wave output
Bidirectional
V+, Common, Shield, Output.
Let me know if you think you can "apply it", and I can shoot you one to try. If it works we can come to some mutual arrangement for a couple.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
For 600 VDC you'll need a drive rated for at least 460 VAC. You would need to figure out how to bypass the input rectifiers.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
ht
Keith,
I will try to give you a buzz later. We are in the middle of getting some cars ready for our company track day at www.millermotorsportspark.com
It's a rough job but someone has to do it! If any of you guys are around on the 30th of August, we rented the track and you are welcome to come by for a ride or to drive my car.
sreid,
Thanks for the input! You guys are really knocking the cobwebs off. I haven't looked at this for months and I figured I'd just give you all a try and I am glad I did.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
That is quite interesting. Not sure about their drives but the tech write up is interesting.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Sounds like the ticket. Wonder if they have the kW? Sure be worth hunting down the correct person to ask.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Do you know what the duty cycle of the motor is? My only worry after looking at that motor is that it seems really small for such a high power rating. I was almost expecting some kind of liquid-cooling pipes in the pictures. But, if the motor is rated for full output power at a 100% duty cycle, that would be awesome.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Thanks for the links! I am following them as fast as I can. I see I will have reading material for some days to come. I really appreciate it!
Keith,
I have already sent off an email.
stephenw22,
I think it has tons of potential as well. I am worried about the duty cycle as well. That is one of the reasons I wanted to put 2 of the motors in the car. The Hybrid Highlander manual says you can't take it off road. I assume that is because there is a very small duty cycle on the Highlander rear traction motor (the one in the pictures). The rear traction motor is not connected at all mechanically to the IC engine of the car. It is completely electrical. It kicks in under hard acceleration or when the computer detects wheel slip.
BUT!!!
My Highlander Hybrid weighs around 6000 pounds! It has more pork than Congressman Murtha. The car I want to make should weigh under 2000 pounds ready to go--or be 1/3 the weight. Hopefully we can make it weigh even less. One of our cars we currently make weighs right at 1100 pounds without an engine or transmission (they are extremely light weight). That leaves us 900 pounds for batteries, motors, and incidentals. I think the weight should be easily achievable. If I use two motors at 90 pounds each, then I still have 700 pounds left for batteries (and other stuff) which is way too may batteries.
Now, if the motors still overheat, I can run an oil cooler to the motors as the motor is bathed in oil. Toyota rates the motor at 50KW so you know it can be overdriven somewhat. Their stuff is serious high quality so I am sure I can lean on it.
Now you are all seeing why I saw the writing on the wall with our 25K IC engines when I opened that Toyota motor up and looked inside. It was a very forceful moment in my life--I saw a better way. It may take a few years, but stand alone IC engines are on the road to meet the dinosaurs.
Now, how do I make the dang thing MOVE???
I appreciate all of your help! Thank you so much.
David
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
It has Permanent Magnet rotor with very strong magnets.
You can not run PM motor with vector drive, even if you have feedback encoder on the motor.
You need encoder/feedback device that can give absolut position of rotor for commutation, when you start running PM motor.
You need a servo drive to make your motor rotate and your thing to MOVE.
But, you should me more worried about how to stop it.
If you rotate PM motor shaft, it acts like generator.
What higher speed motor is running, that higher is the voltage.
Now, worst scenario, you go down hill and your drive trips and your mechanical brakes does not work. What will happen when speed goes higher?
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I was on the phone with them today. They are checking on it for me. I will let you know. Thanks for the help! We all seem to be going in the same direction and that is good--unless we are lemmings.
David
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Thank you for the note. I have thought about stopping the motor. Toyota has somehow solved the problem. I will look further into what they are doing as a fail safe. I do believe, however, it is highly unlikely to have an electrical failure and a mechanical (hydraulic brake) failure at the same time--and certainly most unlikely to have all of that happen on the top of a hill. BUT, you are right. I do need to think of ALL scenarios where gremlins could be hiding waiting to bite me (or worse, one of my customers). I am open to any suggestions you may have. Thank you again!
David
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I got no email that I noticed... Resend it maybe? Make sure something logical is in the subject or I could lump it in with the 100 spam I am heaving..
BTW Thanks for the nice pictures! Nice clean looking unit.
You better plan from the git-go to provide serious cooling because as far as I can tell these things run with about a ~20% duty cycle. I rented a Prius just to scope it out for a day. I thrashed it. Near here we have a downhill that's about 3 miles of a lot of braking on a windy country road. The car with about 70% in the storage completely filled the storage after about 1 mile of this road leaving all the rest to the brakes. That led me to the conclusion that the hybrid system is really for idle prevention not prolonged cruising. If I were tasked with that design I would certainly take advantage of the fact that prolonged constant use is not expected.
But it all does come down to temperature. Most things with low duty cycles are limited due to heat. Get rid of the heat effectively and the duty cycle can climb and often rapidly.
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I sent the email again. Who knows what gremlin ate it on my end or your end.
I do agree cooling will be the major problem. I think that is controllable, however. Remember, I have a lot of experience controlling 650 horsepower 500 cid motors. :) (Tough job I have.)
I am still trying to find the dang manual. Good thing too as I can now see the top of my desk fort the first time in a while.
I will post RPM, volts, wave form, etc as soon as I can find the dang thing. I just posted here on a whim and I am HAPPY I did. I am getting excited about this project again after letting it slide for many months.
David
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
for short-term energy dump, and water- or oil-cooled
resistors for longer term dumps that cannot be directed
to the battery bank. T'would seem like a good plan to
include a cooling scheme from the getgo.
I have, in the past, dinked with much smaller 3-phase
BLDC motors, using the Hall devices for positional feedback
and phase current and angle for torque/speed feedback.
Seems to me that it should scale up, possibly using COTS
drives that are inherently designed to run off D.C. only.
<als>
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Then again maybe "FluxCapacitor is just a trademarked name for a certain PM.
well, maybe I should get back to the,,,,,,,, subject.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Visit
http://www.magnadrive.com/
I believe this solution is much better for you than VFD and you can now have much more motor options. The main problem is that you will be maybe using more battery power than with VFD but this way you can turn to an any electrical motor into a suitable driving force for your car with very precise speed tuning. The point is that Magna people would love to help you so it would be an marketing boom for them, considering that people still prefer VFD application. So if you get the motor running on batteries with full speed characteristics you need you can apply control to magna that will shift the portion of the power you need (just like in ordinary car, pushing the pedal to the metal for full speed) Considering that the link is as I saw from promo film - mechanical. Maybe idea needs a little developing but i believe that you can solve problems like motor speed breaking a motor power when applying the brakes without the problem.
I am not the expert in motor controlling field (still have to learn a lot) and I never work with motors for auto industry, but considering it is made on a base principle as any pump or fan (transferring electrical power to mechanical work) It should not be hard to apply same logic. Also you can try using some step motor to change gears that will prolong life of your battery, and some microprocessor control to do all the calculus for you (gas, gear shifting, emergency breaking....) You can even construct economic, space saving motor that may pay off the entire project :)
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Gunnar, you always come up with great stuff! That book sounds great, but I'm thinking there's got to be some decent stuff online by whoever is making/selling these motors. Any other links?
Sorry to cut in like this, so I'm making a thread for PM AC motors to keep this thread good.
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Anyone else have any good ideas?
Gunnar has pointed me in some very interesting directions. There is a lot of theory out there to make the motors, but I can't find much to control them.
David
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
I found some more info on the WEG system. It seems rather limited as to what is available so I guess it is pretty new for them too.
http:/
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
http://www.ssddrives.com/usa/
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Thanks for the info! I will check them out today. I did call WEG and they haven't called me back yet.
David
www.kirkhammotorsports.com
RE: How to Control AC 600V PM motor???
Any progress in your quest yet?
Here's a link to some serious horsepower coupled to a wheel for a little while.....
http://www.killacycle.com
Regards,
RMarotta