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Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

(OP)
I'm working on a project where the engineers want me to penetrate the masonry containment wall of a diesel with a fill line. Now if this was a dirt berm type containment wall I know we can't do that ...could compromise the integrity in an earthquake. BUT I don't know if this holds true with a masonry wall? The engineers (young, REAL young) say "No Problem" but I have that gut feeling.
 Can anybody give me some direction on this?

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

For a pipe penetration through a masonary wall (I'm assuming reinforced concrete), you can put a sleeve larger than the pipe through the wall, with the pipe inside the sleeve and an expandable rubber seal to fill the gap and allow for some motion.  We just completed a 20 inch pipe penetration this way and it looks good!

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

(OP)
I've done similar type penetrations doing that exact same type of design. BUT this is a diesel tank and if a catastrophic failure does occur, diesel will be 3ft deep in this containment area ...and this penetration will be under the surface at 1'-6" elev. So a rubber seal may or may not work, however this masonry wall is only 8" wide so trying to “cast” this pipe sleeve in the wall would be a problem, this project is in a seismic zone 4, and ambient temps get up to 130F.
My basic gut feeling is still to go over the wall or under it.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

What's the problem with going over the wall,is it too high?

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

(OP)
Wall is 5ft; I could do that, but not a "clean" way to do it ascetically. Actually I would prefer to go underground. Only problem with that is trying to get clear of containment wall footing.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

Look up the Link Seal. I have used these fittings with styrene monomer, acrylonitrile, petroleum etc.Diesel would be a snack.
www.linkseal.com

Geoffrey D Stone FIMechE C.Eng;FIEAust CP Eng
www.waterhammer.bigblog.com.au

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

(OP)
SO nobody has a problem with this tank rocking-n-rolling in a zone 4 earth quake with 20ft section of fill line sticking thru the containment wall? Seems to me it would be pretty easy for that tank catastrophically fail and pull that fill line thru or knock a hole or section of the wall down!!? ...OR have I been watching too many movies? *G*

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

What´s he aestetical problem with a beautiful pipe running over the wall?
You can always paint it artistical,
whatever.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

(OP)
europipe   ...I stand corrected! *G*

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

If I were project owner I think I would like the wall and the piece of pipe to be
1 safe
2 functional
3 cheap
4
5
6
.
.
.
.
9999 pretty

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

If the wall is designed for seismic loads, the tank is designed for seismic loads, the tank foundation is designed for seismic loads, and the pipe has adequate flexibility, the tank should not pull the wall down with the pipe, nor should the wall fall.  Is it designed for seismic loads or not?  If yes to all the above, I have no problem.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

Go over the wall.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

(OP)
This diesel tank is a 5000BBL API650 with external rafters, they are still working on the foundation, and the containment wall is designed per seismic zone 4. The fill line is 4” dia. and about 20ft. long and runs straight from the tank and thru the containment wall ...and is setting on one support about 3ft from the tank wall. It's NOT designed to flex any way! …And that's how the design looks now.
 So do you think I need to continue to be worried?

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

No worries.  The seal will allow the 4" to slide.  The 4" will bend, but probably not fail, during vertical seismic motions.  The 4" pipe will buckle if any compressive load is introduced and maybe some deformation of the nozzle and tank shell might occur, if somehow a tension load develops.  Is it possible to develop any axial loads in the 4" pipe?  Probably not, if you have a 90 bend somewhere between the tank and wherever the pipe goes.  If the tank fails, you have the wall, and if the 4" flange bolts break, you might at worse have some diesel flowing out of the 4" pipe.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

API 2610 7.2.9 (1994 version - I know, it is the old version. I will get the newer one someday) says piping passing through the dike wall shall be designed to prevent build up of stresses during settlement. Would this provision cover the stresses generated during a quake? If not, I think it should be demonstrated that the quake stresses can indeed be absorbed. That particular API does not explicitly mention earthquake.

That sleeve is not just a sleeve. Fire resistant, etc.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

Thanks BigI. I have never read the B31.3 from cover to cover. Always when I needed something I tried to pin point it somehow. (I am into risk analysis and not actual design.)I will try to check that section out.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

I'll save you the trouble of reading B 31.3 cover to cover...

Among other loads and forces described in the same pp 301 appear.. Earthquake and Movements

301.5.3 Earthquake. Piping shall be designed for
earthquake-induced horizontal forces. The method of
analysis may be as described in ASCE 7 or the Uniform
Building Code.

301.8 Effects of Support, Anchor, and Terminal
Movements
The effects of movements of piping supports, anchors,
and connected equipment shall be taken into account
in the design of piping. These movements may result
from the flexibility and/or thermal expansion of equipment,
supports, or anchors; and from settlement, tidal
movements, or wind sway.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

So settling = vertical forces, and quake = horizontal forces. Therefore settling does not cover quake as I proposed further above. But the piping penetrating the wall should be able to handle both stresses by design.

RE: Penetrating containment wall around hydrocarbon tankage?

I can't explain, because I don't understand, why vertical movements of earthquake effects are not specifically included.  It makes no sense to me, unless you figure the earth moves uniformly in the vertical direction during an earthquake.  I can't see how that is reasonable.  In any case, if I thought vertical earthquake loads/movements were significant to the piping, I would include them regardless of what you can quote from the code.  Codes are minimum requirements and do not supercede engineering judgement.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

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