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Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
An engineer here arbitrarily downloaded an updated version of our main CAD software.  In doing so he converted at least one major assembly to the new version so others were unable to open it.  

We’re holding off going to the newer version because we have concerns over the impact on performance on some older machines, it’s not just that we’re dragging our feet etc.

We had a file back up from a few days ago however, we did lose some work.

I’ve had minor issues with this engineer before but with a lot of tongue biting have normally got through it.

I don’t see any ethical issue with my pushing for disciplinary action against him, may make me unpopular/target for next layoffs but not unethical.

Does anyone here see an ethics issue with it?

I ask because I posted before about someone bringing up violations of procedures/policies/laws to get rid of someone that was making their life hell and several posters thought is was weaseley/shrew like etc.

Now in this case my main reason isn’t my personal feelings for the person but what he did in this particular incident, but I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t in the back of my mind.

What do you reckon?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

I think he definitely needs his hands slapped.  He (and the company) is very lucky that larger amounts of data were not lost.  It is one thing to download it just to check it out, quite another to save production files so that they are rendered unusable by others in the company.  Isn't there a company policy forbidding this sort of thing?  If so, he should be written up.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Write up an invoice tallying up they time lost ad the cost impact of that time.  Do this each time Mr. Wonderful costs you time.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
ewh, you hit part of the problem.  I don't think our policy in these areas is well defined or enforced.  I seem to recal something about not having unauthorized software but not what the definition of authorized software is!

So, I'm not expecting him to get fired over this, but a good wrist slapping is I believe appropriate.

Of course he tried explaining it away to IT and a colleague as he was just trying it out and thought he'd backed up data.

I don't buy it, and apparantly the IT guy isn't convinced, said this particular engineer has done this kind of thing before to force a version upgrade.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

The CAD police gets up in my business when i manually edit a dimension on a Not-To-Scale detail.  Downloading software that corrupts active files.. that would provide grounds for non-lethal force at my office. ZAP!

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
ZAP, if only.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

I use Unigraphics, and have been in a similar situation as your co-worker, so I can't be too hard on him.  We were trying out the newest release (NX1) and I had a huge customer supplied assembly file open.  I had our part in the assembly and saved it.  Unfortunately, I did not "save work part only", and the entire assembly was saved and updated.  I got lucky, due to the fact that we only send out parasolid files anyway, and I was the only UG user at the time, but have since been pretty anal about securing customer files where no one can tamper with them.  We now only work on copies of their files.
I realize that your situation if quite different, but post this just to show that, without proper control, these things can and do happen.  Don't shoot the guy just yet, but do make it obvious that this should not have happened.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
Our released files are in a secure area so it wasn't one of these that was lost.

Unfortunately our in work stuff isn't really secure and it was here he screwed it up.

We've also had previous conversations with him that we want to change version but have our reasons for not doing so imediately.  We also told him we plan carrying out performance testing etc.  So it's not like he didn't know what was going on.

But I appreciate you playing devils advocate ewh, that's part of what I was looking for.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

My opinion:  Forget it and go on.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
JStephen, that's what I've done with various things to date.

This time it's cost the company quite a few man hours, on a high priority project (if it fails this part of the company could go belly up) that's already behind schedule.

At what point to draw the line and say something needs to be done, but this is starting to sound more like "overcoming obstacles getting my work done" than ethics

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

1) Introduce a policy that says installing/upgrading /any/ software is a sackable offence

2) Make him sign a copy

That's closed the stable door. That is not an unusual policy by the way.

3) Ask him how he proposes to rectify the situation.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
1 & 2, agreed the stable door may have been left ajar.

3) Conveniently he was out today so correcting the situation fell mainly on a colleague of mine plus IT since we needed it for ECO tomorrow.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

I opened some files in SolidWorks 2007 today, just to see what was inside ... for perfectly legitimate purposes.

On closing them, I was presented with a dialog asking me if I wished to update them, and I answered 'no'.

...  But when I opened some _other_ files, I got an information box telling me that the files that I thought I had already closed and left unmolested ... were being updated.  I was given no opportunity to stop, abort, or circumvent that process.

It _seems_like_ the "no, don't update" response produced a _deferred_ and erroneous update, that somehow got triggered after further unrelated activity.  I know zip about SolidWorks; maybe that's normal, maybe not.  It doesn't _seem_ like a normal behavior.

I don't yet know if any damage was done by what is potentially a very nasty bu....  er, design feature.  

It's not an auspicious start to my new job.  It could happen to anyone.


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
Mike, did you go out of your way to down load a new version of Solid Works rather than using the current version installed on your machine, or the equivalent?

I agree mistakes get made, I've made plenty.

However, when you go out of your way to make the mistake happen, and it has a significant impact, isn't there some accountability?

This guy was here long before me, and until I turned up was probably the expert CAD user.  Read into that what you will.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Mike ... are you sure SW was updating the files when opening them? Usually, when older version files are opened, SW will show a message saying that the files will be updated to the new version when saved.

BTW, congrats on the new job.

cheers

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

The local software guru was just finishing up loading SW on my brand new computer when I arrived the week before last.

Since then, I've answered 'okay' to some anonymous demands to 'update'  .... _something_.  I have no idea what application was making the request, or what it did in response.  It seemed to be the only way to make it stop nagging me.  I wouldn't call that 'going out of my way'.


The way I see it, if I can't _read_ a file using a newer version of the software than that which produced it without unintentionally modifying the file, I'd call that a serious programming error, and I'd hold Solidworks accountable.  I hope my boss sees it that way...

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
Mike, congrats.

In your case I think it would be unfair to hold you accountable.

For our guy, ...

Congrats on the new job by the way.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

KENAT, I agree with you.  A reasonable person would know better imo.  If nothing else, engineers are not getting paid to do IT's job incorrectly and mess up things for everyone.  So he's not only goofing off and not making money but actually costing money.  

If it can be recovered and the person is worth saving, first offense and so on, definite punishment but probably  not fired.  Otherwise = canned.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Whoa Mike ... If someone dropped a document on your desk and asked you to sign it, would you do so without first reading it, and understanding what you were signing? I very much doubt it; so why would you just accept to install or update some software just because it appears on your monitor?

Clicking "Yes" just to get rid of nag screens without understanding what you are agreeing to could result in the same problem that KENATs engineer caused. I'm sorry, but IMO the only difference would be negligence (or maybe lack of due diligence) versus malicious intent.

cheers

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
Thanks Ucfse & CBL, I was starting to think I was over reacting.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

The dialog went something like this:

>File|Open|A.sldxx
>Opening A.sldxx
>File|Close
>Do you want to update A.sldxx?
No.
>Closing A.sldxx
>File|Open|B.sldxx
>Opening B.sldxx
>File|Close
>Do you want to update B.sldxx?
No.
>Closing B.sldxx
>Updating A.sldxx  <<<< Yikes!
... and so on.

I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but the message about updating a file that I thought had already been safely closed came at a time that made no sense whatsoever, but the behavior was consistent.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?


Does your company use ISO9000/9001 as a base for controlling its internal procedures? That might help, although in a full application it might hinder as well.

The company I work in has 'corporate loads' for its PC and workstation software setups and no machine will run executable files without the correct administration rights being used. That might stop some of the fooling around.

Bill

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

You're clearly just looking for an excuse to stick the knife in because you don't like the guy.

I consider that unethical.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

If you are his boss, the choice is yours as to whether and in what way (within company policy) to discipline.  If you are on a peer level with this person, it is not your call.  Pushing for disciplinary action against a peer can backfire upon you as the boss will not likely enjoy seeing their authority challenged.  Kenat, as you indicate in your initial post, it may be ethical to push for disciplinary action, but it may also have career limiting ramifications for doing so.  Remember, the person responsible for your career is you.

The "best" scenario I could perceive would be to have for the boss, if requested or needed, documentation as to how much this error cost the company in terms of man-hours to fix, subsequent impact on project schedule etc.  If you were part of the group that restored the error, this could be captured in a report and submitted to the boss.  Now the boss has documentation to support disciplinary action decisions.  The individual does not have to be named in the report, simply provide a description of the error cause, steps taken to fix, and subsequent costs in doing so.

Regards,

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Create the report that PSE suggested and use it as proof that loading or updating software should be done by IT only.

Peter Stockhausen
Pollak Switching Products

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

This sounds a bit like the common IT vs users problem.  IT should be responsible for dictating which versions of software users are using.  It's common for users to know better and upgrade themselves.  Or for software vendors to push Beta's on users which then get past the in-place systems and used for real work.  Ultimately it's a QA issue.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

At my previous employer they had things locked down so tight that about all you could do was change the background.  It was inconvenient but there were few if any computer problems.

My new employer (3 months now) has things pretty open but they will not hesitate to wipe a computer and re-image it if something has been installed that causes problems.

A software upgrade is the responsibility of IT and not the user.  At they very least there should be an inquiry sent to IT when something wants to upgrade itself.  A good example is Acrobat Reader.

My 2 1/2 cents.

EJL

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
Well thanks all, even the opinions I didnt' really want to hearwinky smile!

WGJ, no 9001, my boss was explicitly told not to even consider taking us that route.  I've worked 9001 before though so understand what you mean.

Tomfh you must have the patience/virtue of a saint.

I'm trying hard to pull my personal feelings out of it, actually I've been away on business with this guy and got on fine as long as we steered away from the one or two contentious work related issues.

However, when I worked till 12:00 last night, mainly as a result of the delays/disruption this caused and may have to miss a meeting this morning to catch up more, which is apparantly upsetting my boss, then I'm finding it difficult.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

I'd get someone to document the circumstances and the cost to the company in time to get back to where you were before.  Then I'd give the guy a copy of that and tell him a coopy is goin to be placed in his personnel file.  The message is, be more careful or you will start to see it show up in your yearly eval.

I work in a right to work state and you can be fired by the boss for no reason whatever.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
I spoke to my manager this morning to explain the the impact.

I'm also missing a big meeting meeting about introducing PDM/PLM this morning on the basis I need to get something finished for this afternoon and I lost a lot of time yesterday.  Hopefully this will bring attention to the fact I'm not making it up exagerating.

That said my boss isn't optimistic anything is going to get done to/about the guy/situation (I know I'm shocked) so I guess I'll have to go back to biting my tongue.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Sounds like that old, old situation where by job security lies not in being good and effective but in the converse. In fact, the greater the liability, the greater the cost to the business, the more secure some people seem to be.
Oh well, never mind.

Actually, there are times when I wish I could be a complete F***up then I would have no worries and could look forward to a place on the board. As it is, half ****d F***ups and genuine errors don't do it.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Start this fight with the knowledge that you can lose.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

My suggestions:
-As others suggested, put money in your claims. How much did this cost in $$? Today everybody will remember that you stayed until 12.00 to clean his mess. If you are sucessfull in solving this, in 3 months time nobody will remember. Say that his error cost in direct cost XUSD and in indirect costs YUSD(delays, complaints from clients, etc.)will have more impact.
-Change you IT policy saying taht any download even for demo/testing purposes will have to be formally approved by IT. The absence to get this approval will lead to a disciplinary action;
-Cut/restrict his access to internet for a couple of months, if feasible, for him to suffer a bit;
-Distribute him one of the old PCs. Like that if he ever downloads anything then he will not be able to use it anyway.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Don't start a war over nothing. If you present a report shwoing how he cost the company XYZ, then he will retaliate in some way you haven't thought of.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
jmw, sometimes I think the same thing.

Medicine Eng, thanks for the suggestions, it's not gonna happen but I like the way you thinkwinky smile

Tomfh/civil, I fear he already started the war long ago but I've repeatedly done my best to minimize it/get along hence the tongue biting.

This time I really feel the effect is significant but I guess management don't feel the same way so I'm not going to push it any further.

However, after my managers concerns about me working too hard/too many hours/burning out I sure won't be cleaning up the mess next time, or if I do I guess my projects will have to slip.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Is your boss not this guy's boss? Corperate policy does not forsee every possible circumstance. The guy did something dumb that may have been premeditated to force the company to adopt something others in a higher position have decided not to for good reason. You and others have observed similar behavior in the past. Your boss needs to talk to his boss about this. He should be told that what he did was dumb, that it has happened in the past and if he continues to try to work around the system, he willl be asked to leave. Disruptive people are generally not an asset to the work force.
By the way, you don't have to like the guy if he is an arrogant jerk. That may have something to do with why you don't like him. However you do have to work with him. It is not your problem to fix (I assume, so don't fix it). Likewise, If he does screw up, somebody needs to make a choice between having you fix his project or finishing your own. As long as you are willing to fix his problems on your own time, the company's problem is minimized. Don't make their problem your problem.

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

Do you charge your time by the project? If so charge the time for correcting the problem to his project.

Peter Stockhausen
Pollak Switching Products

RE: Pursue Disciplinary Action?

(OP)
By boss isn't his boss.  His boss wasn't around when we discovered it but my boss spoke to his boss's boss.

It was one of those situations where missing my deadline, which was affected by his actions, would have caused more grief than my fixing the problem, especially as he was out the day it happened and my colleague who was helping fix it went home sick.

However, in future, stuff it.  If it goes south again I'll make it clear to my manager what the situation is and let him explicitly make the decision.

The time will be charged to the project, though they don't track it that close.

Anyway it's now at the point where my saying or doing anymore will just make my life difficult so like it or not I'm dropping it.  Another reason not to stay at my current employer though.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

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