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Is SW on the right track?
10

Is SW on the right track?

Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
I’ll throw this out, hopefully for some constructive candid feedback.

I have been seeing a reoccurring theme since getting involved with SW (back in 2004), and have been receiving a good deal of feedback from some of my seasoned users that have made the same observation, since 1999.  The observation is; each release of SW since 1999 has not significantly improved in stability and performance.  Also, the Service Pack route has been netting the same type of results; they fix some bugs and cause new problems each time.  We seem to have experienced an “excessive” amount of “bugs” and problems in SW 2007, more so than we were accustomed to seeing in SW 2004 and SW 2006 (SW 2005 was a nightmare for us).  Maybe the odd numbered releases have more problems? ?

I attended a local User Group Mtg for the SW 2007 rollout and after seeing all the new “gee whiz” functions, I asked the SW Regional Sales Mgr “all the new features are great, however; could SW drive their next release solely towards stability, performance and making all existing functions work well?”  I was in an audience of about 70 persons, and overall they reacted as a mob.  I was very surprised how vocal the group was in agreeing with my sentiment.  The Sales Mgr’s response was “we hear this all the time, and this is an argument that exists within SW…the fact is that new features sell well, and what would we say to new customers; “SW 200X, now our stuff works”, that wouldn’t sell”.  I argued that they could easily sell this as “SW 200X, the most stable, best performing package on the market”.  Another user spoke up and said “I’ve been on SW since 1997, and between 1997 and 1999; SW had the market for great performance and great stability.  We bought SW based on word of mouth from other users that raved about performance and stability and you never hear of that anymore”.  The Sales Mgr, had no real response to pacify the group.

We run a pretty tight ship in our company, being the CAD Manager; I have extensive data since SW 2004 on benchmarking our performance as well as Crash logs provided by my users.  There is a definite downward trend that I have observed in stability and performance.

Does anyone have any other observations that can give perspective beyond these observations?  BTW, I would like to keep this constructive and am not intending on moaning and complaining only.  I AM a big fan of SW and want to see them succeed.

Cheers

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I agree with your findings and experiences with SWx.  I can't remember what year rollout but the same thing happened.  The SWx corporate guy gave one of those brouhaha speeches centered around large assembly stability.  The response was welcomed with smiles and understanding.  The fact is SWx has crashed more times in the last three months then Pro/E has in the last three years.....running on the same machine with a SWx certified video driver.  I've narrowed it down to all the "handshaking" SWx does with Micro$oft products.  But the bottom line is SWx is the tool I prefer to use get my job done and Pro/E is the tool I have to use to support a valued customer.

Heckler americanflag  
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I think that a lot of the crashing is more directly related to hardware/network issues versus the software itself. That's not to say that SW doesn't cause crashes occasionally though. My experience is spread out over two companies and 7 years. At my previous company, there were many cases of crashes and lock ups, regardless of which version/SP. I'd say 85-90% of the time it was directly related to hardware or the network. The company either didn't understand what was needed to properly run SW or, and I think this is more likely, they did and just didn't want to spend the money. My VAR ran some tests using assemblies I supplied and had no problems. When they came in and tried it on the network, they crashed. At my present company, we've gone through '06 and '07 with minimal issues. And, again, the vast majority have been hardware related.
I think that as the software becomes more powerful, it's simply sapping system resources in many cases. Add in improper drivers, poor networks and typical PC variables and you'll see such issues continue.
Do I think SW is perfect? No, not in the least. It definitely has it's share of glitches but, IMO, it's not the main culprit.
Just my 1/2 cent...

Great conversation starter

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
SW '07 SP2.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

RE: Is SW on the right track?

2
I don't believe it is just SW users that are experiencing this. It is trend most of the major MCAD players are caught up in.

I don't believe the powers-that-be will take too much notice of a few people deriding the software in forums like this, or even verbal outbursts at some seminars.

The majority of the "enhancements" are prompted by users. If, instead of submitting ERs for a shiny new function, users used the ER to request/demand improved stability and performance, maybe SW would listen ... especially if it is compared unfavourably to other systems. As the saying goes ... "Get it in writing".

cheers

RE: Is SW on the right track?

4
(OP)
JMirisola,

I agree with your observations on "network" related causes. I've been told countless times that SW does not recommend working live over a LAN.  That is exactly our situation, however; my benchmarks have considered LAN operations as well as local stand alone operations and the data suggests the same conclusion.  On LAN's; I think there is a fundamental if not philosophical error in judgment on SW's part by avoiding LAN operations.  I say this as the performance gap between local operations and LAN operations (Client / Server ops) continues to close to where there si very little performance hits working live over a good LAN.  Also, working in a LAN environment tends to be the "way of the future" as well as common for many other apps that don't suffer from it.  Hmmm...

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
Cor, I agree with you and again, I wasn't looking for forum ranting, but some confirmation that my observations aren't unique, but seen by others as well.  Also, my intent is to fly to New Concord and have a face to face meeting with "the powers that be within SW".  I do plan to first send a very professionally worded letter to said "powers" prior to meeting with them, to voice these concerns.

Also, I hear the same things from users of other packages as well, it is common.  Cor, your point seems valid; “how does one most effectively invoke positive change?".

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Quote:

I don't believe it is just SW users that are experiencing this. It is trend most of the major MCAD players are caught up in.

Then we ask ourselves are we demanding to much from our MCAD?  I also run Pro/E 2001 on this machine with some very large assemblies and it is rock solid.  But I don't have excel design tables, hole tables, word or any other stuff embedded into my MCAD dataa  At that point we're at the mercy of how well those other embedded items play with SWx.

Heckler americanflag  
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
Setting expectations of performance and stability is very difficult.  Is it fair to expect any software to not ever crash?  Probably not; however, when does stability become a vaild problem?  How bad before one says "something must be done about this"?

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

To answer you original question, "Is SW on the right track?", I would have to answer with a yes I think they are, but with the proviso that I think they are just going too fast. They need to slow down to a safer speed before they derail or crash into something more "solid".

cheers

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
Nicely stated Cor; may I quote you on that? peace

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Well thank you and please feel free to quote. I'll collect the royalties later. lol

cheers

RE: Is SW on the right track?

CBL:

As one from the former colonies, you limeys and your fascination with royalty amaze me...

clown

RE: Is SW on the right track?

CBL:

It's the former colonist again...I have quoted you in the past without sending any royalties.  If you ever get to North Carolina in the US, will you accept a beer or two on me and call it even?

debodine

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I think Autodek is the reason for the rapid pace.......just trying to stay ahead of Inventor in features. Reason being that most new users are probably Autocad converts. As Inventor becomes more capable, why would a company using Acad buy from a different software company when they already have a relationship with Autodesk. Solidworks has to wow and whoo them with flashy features.....its like that shiny metallic paint job on a car...and lets face, it sells.

So thats why, IMO, we see big enhancements to "Realview" in 2008 and they make a big deal about it. There is some good stuff in there too so I think they try to balance it.

As for stability, I think it has gotten slight worse in the last few years in some situations. And as its been mentioned, its usually hardware, drivers, and network related. I think the problem is that hardware like video cards and their drivers, cpus, motherboards, etc, come out at a rapid pace and software becomes more and more dependent on it when it makes use of the new features this hardware provides. So many variables to program for and thus more room for something to go wrong. I think the older versions of Solidworks were less dependent on hardware and thus more stable.

Video cards and drivers are my guess for the main hardware culprit. I can usually prove it here where I work when we solve a crashing problem by running in software opengl mode.

There's a reason why gaming companies flock to the Playstation and xbox instead of PCs. Only one set of hardware to worry about and test against. Maybe Solidworks should write a version that will running on the Xbox 360.

Jason

SolidWorks 2007 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Quote:

Maybe Solidworks should write a version that will running on the Xbox 360.
That would be bad, Jason. Then my sons would start beating me at SolidWorks, too...

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
SW '07 SP2.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

RE: Is SW on the right track?

laughtears
Good point...

Jason

SolidWorks 2007 SP4.0 on WinXP SP2

RE: Is SW on the right track?

debodine ... That sounds like a good deal to me. thumbsup2 ... but if you had read some of my posts in other forums you would know that I am most definitely NOT fascinated by royalty.

cheers

RE: Is SW on the right track?

CBL:

I have read your posts before, and I realize you have your head on straight.  I just didn't want to pass up the play on words of "royalties" vs "royalty".  The fact that your screen name identifies you as CorBlimeyLimey just made the irony sweeter when teasing about "royalty".

At least it did for me because I liked my pun.  However, it would not shock me one bit to discover that everyone on the forum got my pun but I am the only one who laughed.  That is not all that unusual for my attempts at jokes.  That is why I use the smiley face clown to let others know I tried...

But the offer of a beer or two is NO joke!  That one you can bank on if you are ever in my territory.

debodine

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
So, back on topic...

Gildashar,

I've heard many people that's been with SW since the late 90's blame much of the problem of SW's aggressive pursuit of more new features directly on the competition between SW & IV.  It may not be limited to just these two players. The story I heard was SW responded with a commitment to providing 200+ new features each release when Autodesk put a "target" on SW's back.  All that is great to talk about, but at the end of the day the problem still exists...

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Well, I may as well chime in here (since it's almost supper and time for a little slacking for a change).

I experience VERY FEW crashes.  I don't remember the last time I truly crashed SolidWorks.  However, that's not to say I don't find bugs all the time.  (Animator IS a bug [but I've got work-arounds, as usual].)

I'm an industrial designer who really likes the shiny new features--particularly when dealing with surfacing, rendering, animating (yeah, IF it works), and lots of similar sorts of things that reduce my time for making plastic widgets or presentations and Hollywoods.  But I'd have to say I'm near the tipping point of actually wanting less buggy software now.  I can hardly keep up with the new features and still have 1,000 "old-school" ways of doing things from when I started teaching myself SW back in 1997.  So I'm part gadget freak and part crotchety old guy (stay off the grass!) now.

It seems SW is running from an imaginary bear.  Maybe it's not so imaginary, maybe it is.  There's a fine line between attracting new business and keeping existing users/clients happy (I walk it all the time--and often fall off, I imagine).  A tad slower would be best, methinks.  Stabilize--if not entirely blowing a release on stability, at least start putting some resources toward it (like maybe 30% at first) and see how it goes.

New users who love the software are the ones who truly sell it.  Back in '98 and '99 I must have sold five copies of software just by my immense performance numbers over other engineers (usually customers' in-house guys).  Bad press does the opposite.  Focus on the users and the marketing will start taking care of itself like ten years ago.

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
Reason trumps all.  And awe transcends reason.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

From my experience from the seat at which I work from... you can't expect SW to never crash... after all it runs on Windows... Windows crashes more then you think (check out your Event logs) Stability... that varies between users and their hardware. Some people say "its the exact same hardware as my colleagues computer"... and my answer to that would be "so" it doesn't matter if the hardware is the same... if the user that installed software (drivers, OS, etc) didn't follow directions correctly or if they used some type of ghosting software then the problem could be handed down to all the system there after... but I feel the root of most problems is something that most don't look at... windows... Every time SW crashes its very likely windows caused the problem. Exactly how varies depending on type of crash. SW is very demanding on hardware, software and RAM. Its not like Word or excel... however if those start crashing your Windows is defiantly the problem.

Making a SW RX of the issue and getting that to your VAR is the best solution for helping SW to help with stability. You cannot expect a company to help you the customer, if you don't provide them with some thing for them to find the answer for. I myself recently have been battling an issue with my system… it looks like it’s the HDD… I didn’t think about that until I started researching the problem. If I was just an average user of computers, which a lot of users are they will always complain that SW is the problem, this is an example of not being the case. IT will never admit to their systems or skill being the problem either, so it makes SW the easiest one to blame, because they can’t defend themselves until you give them the right data to test.

Most people jump to conclusions that SW is always the problem… and sometimes it is, but I feel that most of the time its either the user jumping to a conclusion and blaming something other then themselves, PC or windows and accuse the software that gave them the error. SW runs on top of windows and if the foundation is not there what makes you think its going to support SW as it is a much heavier piece then the foundation in some instances?

I think people need to be more proactive on this subject and stop jumping to conclusions. I am not saying SW won’t crash and I am not saying that it doesn’t have its bugs, but these same conversations on crashing and stability are getting very old. If you don’t like something then be proactive about it and send in your problems to your VAR. If you’re VAR will not help you then take it over their head. They will get the point, but be nice about it. You will get a better response when the time comes to talk to your VAR.

In Conclusion be more proactive in telling SW and your VAR about issues… don’t just go rambling to this or other NG’s about stability… get your facts straight before you bring it out here to complain about something that is probably not SW fault to begin with.

This is not meant to be directed to anyone negative in this post… these are just my opinions and not opinions of the Company I work for.

Best Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com
"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
Scott,

I think you are hitting on something that is very difficult to establish, and that is "expectations".  I don't think anyone would ever expect SW, as well as any other program, not to have hang ups and crashes, it's just difficult to establish "what is a reasonable set of expectations".  

I agree with everything you said, and I intend on solving no problems within the contents of this thread.  As I stated in my original thread, I am after some "constructive" input, not aimless complaining.  I knew it would be easy to be perceived this way...

I am doing my best to gather as much information as possible, much as you suggest, and be active in seeking an ultimate, long term solution through SW.  That is part of what I am intending via this thread, the seeking of confirmation that my problems are not unique.

I didn't hear in your response an answer to the original question; "do you think SW is heading in the right direction overall in their approach to developing their product?".  If not, where could they do better?

I plan on spending time talking with the "power that be" within SW to constructively work with them on improving stability and performance.  I actively participate in the Beta programs; submit SR's and ER's all the time.  I keep an open dialogue with my VAR and have been somewhat successful in maintaining a dialogue with a number of individuals within SW.  At this point, I feel I am working towards being constructive in helping solve problems with SW.  This thread is not by any stretch of the imagination the only avenues I pursue, nor is it just empty venting.

Thanks for your thoughts Scott, I understand how sensitive this subject line can be. thumbsup2

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Phadreus,

We are still running SW2006 and it appears to be more stable than SW2004 (we skipped 2005), and SW2003.  SW still crashes on occasion, but as others have mentioned user education and resolving hardware issues can eliminate a suprising % of stability issues.  

SW's battle now is just to maintain stability while keeping up the torrid pace of new functionality.  I think the SWIFT technology was a huge move in the right direction - building expert knowledge directly in to the software, and thereby reducing complexity.  There are many untapped areas of the software where this could be beneficial.

I would like to see the day where SW is able to handle all errors, and if something goes wrong it's able to display a message box telling you "Wha' happened"...I don't know how realistic a goal that is...

SW has to make money just like everybody else, so they have to balance new functionality with the potential instability that new functionality introduces.  SW just has to build the software so that it meets acceptable standards of stability - not bulletproof standards.  I would love it if I never had to take my wicked-awesome '99 Mazda Protege in to the shop for maintenance, but what can ya do.

SW is creeping close to a case of "Feature-itis", but IMO it's not there yet...

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I was not posting that post to intend that you were complaining. I was saying that ingeneral in regards to others complaining about this subject line. I am hoping that when other read this thread, they will understand and take some proactive measures before just posting to complain. Be sure it was a legitimate complaint.

I know my post seemed like I was thinking you were complaining, but I it was intended for that... it was a general statement and was really meant for those that complain about everything and aimlessly [pint their fingers at SW, when they are not completely sure for themselves.

Cheers,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com
"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
I'm with ya Scott...care to weigh in on the original question? peace

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

As a SolidWorks user since 1996 I think they have run the new features sales pitch into the ground and should work on speeding up operations, better backwards compatibility and simplifying some of the current features. Stability can be improved by using faster machines and proper drivers. We had the first DEC Alpha 433 running Windows NT in the State of Washington.  At that time the fastest Intel was 200 mhz. The DEC crashed far less if you did not get too many key strokes ahead of the system. If you open older files you will always have more crashing. We have had to recreate some models just to be able function acceptably. Every year it becomes harder to justify the maintenance for these reasons.

Ed Danzer
www.danzcoinc.com
www.dehyds.com

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I think they are heading in the right direction and to gain stability and not improve the product is ludicrous IMO.

They have implemented many tools to help in the improvement of stability as well as maintaining customer enhancements. Along with the changing environment of Computers, technology and overall performance of the changing times.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com
"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

If you ask SW, they are on the right track.  Problem is, SW isn't asking us!.  Most SW "improvements" are "marketing driven".  This means they are making the roduct more marketable to those making the purchasing decision.  They could really care less about the user base.

batHonesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.bat
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I disagree, they have the Enhancement requests that customer have the choice of putting in... if it doesn't get enough hits then yeah it takes longer to put in... I am seeing things put in today that I requested 10 years ago... its just finally catching up because everyone else saw the need that I seen then.

If you want your voice heard then start on your own site a wish list... there used to be one and SW watched it... I don't know what ever happened to that site though.

Get your heads together put together a list of needed items and put the enhancement in. That's what you need to do.

Some people have SPR#'s that have not been fixed yet. Well the reason is, is its not effecting everyone and 2 they probably have a work around...

So IMO SW is heading in the right direction, you as a user must take some pro active steps and put in your ER's and if you have to get a few of you in a group or if you have a User group meetings in your area... then that is where you need to go and voice your opinions.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com
"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Just because one has enough people behind them to get an Enhancement request adopted doesn't mean it's in the best interest of the entire user community.  I would hope SWx would exercise discernment before rushing to market with user base enhancements.  I know one thing that really ticked me off a few years ago was all the "feel good" options SWx added to appease the newly acquired ACAD user base.

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001

      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"Avoid the base hypocrisy of condemning in one man what you pass over in silence when committed by another." -- Theodor

RE: Is SW on the right track?

You don't like that ol' ACAD users feel comfy using SWx? :)  Actually, seriously, what functions are you refering to, Heckler?

Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Your RIght Heckler, they don't always do that either. They do look at the ER to make sure its a good fit to the product. If they did do that it would be like using ACAD in 3D then..

I also agree with you about all the ACAD improvements, however some of those have proved to beneficial. You might not see some of that, but from where I sit I use a few of those options. It helps with Customizing you SW, but without losing your standards.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com
"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

The big one being SWx 2D Emulator.  I personally dislike devices that make something look like something it's not.  On a daily basis I switch between SWx and Pro/E....so should I ask SWx for a Pro/E Emulator or PTC for a SWx Emulator?  Not to turn this into an ACAD bashing session...I just see this type of "option" as distraction from core content.

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001

      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"Avoid the base hypocrisy of condemning in one man what you pass over in silence when committed by another." -- Theodor

RE: Is SW on the right track?

That has been there since hte beginning though and has been a nuisance since it was put into the software... I don't know any one that uses it... it should be removed!

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com
"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

  This is a little late but I have loaded solidworks on an xbox. For about $70, you can have your xbox hacked, run windows xp and that's it. Haven't tried on a 360 yet because once hack it, you loose the online play. If an xbox 360 cost $350, that's well bellow what a decent computer would cost that can run SW worth a flip. Look at the stats on the capabilities of the 360. It's worth it.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

It's only worth it if you can afford to take the risk that you will never need support.  I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that call...

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Please report back once you have had a chance to use SW (on the Xbox) with some performance checks;
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/solidmuse/workstation_performance/index.html
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/solidmuse/2007/05/computer_hardwa.html
http://www.spec.org/gwpg/downloadindex.html
http://www.spec.org/gwpg/apc.data/specapc_sw2007_summary.html

If http://hardware.teamxbox.com/articles/xbox/1144/The-Xbox-360-System-Specifications/p1 is correct with the 360 specs, my guess is that the ATI graphics card and the minimal (512MB) RAM will let you down.
If the basic Xbox has even lesser specs than the 360, I predict you will be very disappointed.

cheers

RE: Is SW on the right track?

1/2 GB of RAM?  That wouldn't work for me.

There seems to be a lot of noise out there regarding the slight tweaks to the feature set--and resulting loss of flexibility (user interface) and options.  I have to wonder what good it is to force changes involving less options to users?  Why not leave the previous functionality alone while tweaking the features?

Contrary to my prior post, I am now getting crashing.  However, I think this is something endemic to my system (Windows?) and not with SolidWorks--since I'm still running the same old SW 2007 I've been running.  I'm eager to take 2008 for a spin except for all the lovely "feedback" I've been hearing about it.

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
Reason trumps all.  And awe transcends reason.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I’ve put in a couple of ER’s over the past few years suggesting alternative software release methods. SolidWorks current method does produce more bugs and it resolves.

My suggestion, based on the above observations by everyone, is that SolidWorks should be released on a 2 to 4 year cycle. This will give SW time to stablize each version the software. Under this scenario, bug fixes are available to everyone, and upgrades with new features can still be released to current subscribers, but they are optional, not mandatory. If someone comes across a model with a new feature that they didn’t install for yet, they can simply install that update module at that time. Only if that new feature used will an update be required. This will improve backward compatibility too since the software will remain relatively unchanged for a good period of time, with updates being optional.

A four year cycle should be used unless some revolutionary advancement happens in computers or software development, then they can reduce the period to 2 years for that instance.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: Is SW on the right track?

That's just silly, Matt.  Why would they do that when they have us as free tech support?  When the users are utilized as part of the design cycle of software (and business is still good) the company will have no reason to modify their release cycles or their update policies.  We can't really send in an ER for their business model can we?  

I agree with you, though, to the extent that their releases and release cycle aren't outpaced and outdated by technological advances.

Dan

www.eltronresearch.com

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Sarcasm duly noted. :)  

I have been sending ER's in for this.  My VAR suggested it, actually.  

BTW, it wouldn't mean free tech support.  The subscription would still be yearly for the updates, tech support and other value added services.

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Windows is on a 2 to 4 year devleopment cycle and its still released with bugs. No software is flawless, regardless of the amount time spent developing it.

Some bugs they will just never catch until some user stumbles upon it as its hard to test every conceivable variable, and every sequence of steps, not to mention all the different hardware the software has to run on.

Its the reason game devs like the Xbox and Playstation versus PC games. One set of hardware to program to.

Jason

SolidWorks 2007 SP5.0
SolidWorks 2008 SP0.1
WinXp sp2 (32 and 64 bit)

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I would agree to a slow down, but think that updating (or catching bug fixes) as an option would wreak havok on the file translation aspect.  My scenario goes like this:  A vendor and I have the same release, however, he has a couple fixes in his that allow some feature that my machine can't handle.  I really don't know if this would be possible, but think that it could only spell trouble.

I am afraid that I am a bit jaded at this point to answer the original poinient question.  I am still recovering from a recent 2007 install.  I do have a couple guys that have questionable vc's though.  I am not admin, but am the co. cad guru through osmosis (and ENG_TIPS, I must say), so I am heavily relied upon to point out these hardware infractions when they occur.  At this point I am bringing an old Pro E user into the wonderful world of Solidworks and have been somewhat surprised at how many work arounds that I really use.

Right direction?  I thought that 2006 was supposed to address some performance issues?  It seemed to come along o.k.  I was crashing 5 or 6 times a day with v7sp4.  I had my IT guy rev me to sp5 and have had fewer crashes. (BTW, the real reason that I got sp5 was to cover lost functionality with toolbox...just ask anyone who tried to rename a folder with sp4).

I would not (at this point) suggest that our company switch software.  I do think SW is on the right track and also think that some of you guys have nailed down the underlying problems between marketing and manufacturing needs.

Let me end (please) with some water cooler type humor.  My associate and I were discussing what this new tool was in SW 2007.  A new tab appeared along the right side of our monitors called recovery or something.  Don't get me wrong, I like the feature that saves my drawing / assembly after Iv'e crashed.  My associate said that this feature would be like General Motors offering free wrecker service due to faulty engineering.

dsgnr1

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I did not read many of the above posts. But I am giving my .02 worth now.

Everyone designs in many different ways. SW has the training to help users design the way the software was written. Some bugs I see are because the user is not using SW the way it was intended and SW should not fix something just because it does not work the way a user thinks it should. If your not doing it correctly then it’s you fault, not the Solidworks.

I find that 08 is more stable then any release to date. Hardest part about 08 is the install process it changed and everyone wigging out. It’s the same install process it’s just through the Install Manager now and you have to select the right options to get to the install your wanting.

I think SW is heading in the right the direction and I have for many years now. Despite all the threads that are posted like this one. SW has the performance logging to help with stability and over 80% of the people I talk to say they don't use it... why not? You are the guys that are complaining about stability, but yet you don't want to help with this process? You’re shooting yourself in your own foot.

If you want better stability Do the Beta testing, provide SW the needed information when you crash. Make SW RX's send them to your VAR's for help and bug reports... Software is not perfect and when you run a piece of software that is demanding on machine performance and constant maintenance your asking for trouble. Everyone install different and everyone’s machine is different. Yeah you can order the same machine from a single mfg like Dell... but those components were made separately and there could be a problem. Don't shoot your Tech support guy because he says it’s a VC, or HDD etc... It might be. We deal with this day in day out. Don’t rule out everything some one says… we handle these issues more often then “How do I build this?” Consider all the options and help your Tech guys to help you and the process is much easier and you will gain respect for it. Just complaining about the software to me goes in one ear and out the other… show me the complaint and have data to back it up… Then I have no problem sending it to SW… that is my job day in day out.

You as a user must look at the big picture and not see so narrow minded that Software should be flawless and be totally bug free. Sorry to tell you, but it’s never going to be... That's like saying your car will NEVER break down... whatever I have a truck sitting out back with a shot Transmission. Should I throw a complaint to Chevy for not making a transmission last the life of the Truck? It was expensive once... But when it broke when it was new it was covered for so many miles... now its just junk... but the engine runs and there are some good parts on it still. I am not going to complain because the Transmission is shot. Its just part of life and you have to expect some problems... if you think your crashing more often then others... then send it in and stop complaining... these threads are so old its sickening. Sorry to be a negative post tonight... but these threads have been here since 96 and there is always one guy to start the thread and every one just feeds into it.

Instead of being a complainer, be the guy that helps to solve the issues and work with your TS help desk... if you have a VAR you don't like, then either switch to another one or call SW directly that will get your VAR in gear. Just help with the situation instead of making it worse… IMO that’s 95% of the problems today in the world… everyone wants you to hand it to them instead of just getting up and making a difference. I go to work everyday… hoping that I might make a difference to some Engineer that is battling something in SW, whether its install, how do I do this, or just a simple a question that he has never done. I get that respect because there are many people that respect my opinion when they talk to me and I respect them for giving me the chance to help… its even better when they compliment me as well. I started helping people in this very NG back in 2001. Since then I found something that I like to do and something I am good at. Helping people. It’s not like a doctor helping people, but its form that users can’t live without. But to me it was important that I stayed in my career versus traveling outside it. I miss designing… but I know I would miss helping others more.

If we had more givers versus complainers it would be such a better place, both here in the SW Community and the world.. Be a part of the solution instead of the problem.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com

Quote:

"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
"these threads are so old its sickening. Sorry to be a negative post tonight... but these threads have been here since 96 and there is always one guy to start the thread and every one just feeds into it."

Now thats ironic Scott!  In a single breath you not only condemed what you have not clearly understood, but contributed to what you have professed to be sickened by.  Ah, the duality of man...

It seems to me that nobody in this entire thread ever stated anything that leads anyone to believe that they refuse to participate in programs like the performance log, RX Reports, SPR's and such. The fact of the matter is, that the topic is a valid one, and I (the one who started it) did not simply go to the web and "complain" about SW, I took a very active approach and spoke dirrectly with PM's within SW about this topic.  It was all very constructive, and contrary to what you might be leading us to believe, the people at SW that I spoke to professed to "really appreciate such candid feedback" and also commented "this is the exact type stuff we need to hear and consider" and most importantly of all "this has been an ongoing debate within our organization (SW) for quite a while now, and it's great to have some users weigh in on the topic".  After my conversation with people within SW, I received several e-mails from them thanking me for my input and was also invited (and participated ) in several mini User Group meetings with them.

If threads like this sicken you, don't participate in them, and certainly don't kick the ones that do choose to participate in them for doing so.  I know it must be important to you to give your 2 cent on every topic, and I deeply respect guys like yourself that put in so much effort giving your opinions, however; as you cleverly illuded to: these threads can become negative and sickening.  

My final thought: I ask you this, "did your post contribute to the sickening negative side, or was it constructive, informative and positive?".  I of course, don't need and answer, you need that answer for yourself.

No hard feelings Scott, just voicing MY 2 cents.  Cheers my friend!

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I wanted to throw in my .02 about SolidWorks.
SolidWorks is very good, and in the right hands, can work beautifully. ALL PCs are different. SolidWorks is sensitive and can not keep up with all of the different configurations and tweaks that people change on their PCs. It is a medium range CAD software. Higher range CAD are more expensive and the companies that have them can afford to hire a CAD manager that can keep up with their tweaks. Lower range CAD can run on just about anything.
So, users have to be patient, follow the installation instructions, buy the proper hardware, get proper training, and be consistent throughout the company...and everything will work fine.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Phadreus, Clearly you care and are proactive and open minded. Thanks for your efforts.


ctopher
"Higher range CAD are more expensive and the companies that have them can afford to hire a CAD manager that can keep up with their tweaks."
I'm 19 years in the industry and haven't worked with a CAD Manager yet. I must be working at the wrong companies.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

They are usually larger-medium to very-large companies. SOme companies have managers that act as CAD managers.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
Thanks fellas, I appreciate it...  I do realize how fortunate my company is to not only have enough size / revenues to employee me as the CAD Manager but also that the Management recognizes the benefits of having a CAD Manager and supports my existance.  This is not the case with many companies.  We have over 100 users spread out over five US Sites and it is quite the job keeping everyone moving in the same direction as well as fielding all the questions, training users, procuring new Hardware, Custom Software solutions and keeping attitudes possitive.  Oh man, I just realized; my job stinks! LOL

Cheers all!

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

When I worked at LM we had an onsite SDRC applications engineer and a MCAD group.  I guess since LM had about 600 seats corporate wide that justified having the MCAD support.

I like Matt's idea about a 2-4 year development cycle it would take the stress out of getting the new release out in September verses making the current release stable.  PTC does that for Pro/E and it works just fine....they have major and minor build releases.

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I was talking about posting them here... taking them to SW is the best idea and I respect that... just tired of reading thread after thread on this. Taking it to SW is a proactive thing to do. Good job. Most come here and just complain about SW direction. comp.solidworks.com was horrible about that and that's why I left that group... just became a complain station. Like I said in the beginning I didn't read but a handful of posts last night. So I do apologize if I had offended you or anyone else. Just tired of these types of posts for random users.

I would rather see guys like you take their issues straight SW instead of posting them.

Best Regards

Scott Baugh, CSWP pc2
www.scottjbaugh.com

Quote:

"If it's not broke, Don't fix it!"
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Don't have any pennies so here are my 5 cents...

While I completely agree with Scott and many of the group that mentioned that several of the issues we experience with SWX have to do with hardware, OS, networks, OLE, graphics drivers, installation problems and the keyboard user interface...

The truth is that SWX has bugs here and there. Yes, there will always be bugs. But, I don't think it is unreasonable for the customers to demand less bugs (better quality) and new functionality at the same time.

Further to this, I am not convinced that the quality of the software has necessarily gone down. But one thing I have noticed is that as users become more advanced and start using top down, equations, design tables ... they are more likely to find bugs.

Final note, yes I am a PITA customer... I want better quality (less bugs) and more functionality... and I want it now.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

One thing, I forgot to add was that in my book, SWX is a great company with an amazing product... but I still want better quality and more functionality.

RE: Is SW on the right track?

Sorry Scott,

Obviously we both made posts at the same time.

"I would rather see guys like you take their issues straight SW instead of posting them."

I agree with you, that is more effective.

take care,

J

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I am with Scott on this one. Blaming SW for stability has always been a very popular issue (you can see the number of stars this Phadreus person got). In my case I can't remember when was last time SW crashed. And that has been the case with SW2007, 2006, 2005 and 2004. Some of the early ones from SP2.0 and up.

In most cases it is easier to blame SW or hardware or Windows than to accept your own stupidity fault. Do your own installation properly, make sure AV is disabled, use the latest certified drivers by SW, use recommended hardware (this is a big one, people try to cut corners using cheap hardware and when they have problems geuss whose fault it is again?), don't overload your computer. Don't trust IT, they have no finesse in installing SW and most of the time they are too arrogant to listen to good advice. Listen to Scott because he knows what he's talking about. Just my 5 cents..

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
So, so this topic doesn't get taken out of context; I would like to remind that I stated in my start of the overall thread; "Does anyone have any other observations that can give perspective beyond these observations?  BTW, I would like to keep this constructive and am not intending on moaning and complaining only.  I AM a big fan of SW and want to see them succeed."

I do have to say that since I created this thread, I have completely reformatted my users Workstations and installed everything from scratch and have seen a difference.  Stability is better than it has ever been as well as performance.  However; I was not seeking to simply solve my current random stability and performance issues per say, I was seeking opinions on weather other people are satisfied in SW's current balance of "new functionality vs improved performance / stability".  I haven't heard anyone say they think SW has hit the perfect bulls eye yet on their balance of efforts.

In closing, I very much appreciate all the feedback and contributions everyone has put into this thread and guys like Scott and his disciples have a VERY valid point that in "no way is complaining on the web going to solve any problems".  However, just in this thread alone, I have received constructive feedback that I have implemented into my installations that have made improvements.    I also provided the contents of this thread to SW reps and they seemed very much appreciative (the active approach, if you will).

Cheers all and thanks for the input!!!

That Phadreus person...

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

(OP)
Ok, to put a final cap-off on this topic…I attended SW World last week and I was very encouraged at the things I heard Jeff Ray (SW CEO) say in the general sessions.  Apparently, Jeff went on a “world tour” visiting over fifty cities in over thirty countries seeking feedback from SW Users.  Jeff got an overwhelming number of Users saying the same thing to him, and I quote; “…gosh Jeff, all these new features SW puts in each new release is great, but can’t you take one release and focus on performance and stability?” end quote.  If you go back to my opening comments in my thread, you will see the circle has been completed as Jeff stated that the main focus for SW 2009 will be performance and stability.  SW is seeing a 65% improvement in performance between 2008 vs 2009 at this point (2009 Alpha) and are anticipating improvements over these figures by the time of production release.

As I was one of the users that had this conversation with a number of people with SW including Jeff, I am now very encouraged with SW.  Now if they do what they say (and there is no reason to believe they won’t), we should be seeing some impressive performance with SW 09.  Just as much as the promise of improved performance and stability, I am thrilled to see how much SW is paying attention to their users and the user’s needs.  This is how it is supposed to work!

M.B. Price CSWP
www.assembly-testww.com
Automated Assembly & Test Systems

RE: Is SW on the right track?

I think SW is heading in the right direction. As far as crashing goes I think a massive portion of the blame has to rest on Microsofts shoulders for failing year after year to provide a stable operating system. (P.S. as soon as SW is certified MAC stable I am outta the PC realm!)

Also from my own point of view, every time I run a new version of any cad software I always try running it to the tipping point.

* rendering at super hi-res/shadow settings
* adding as many parts and tables to a part

Basically giving the software a run for it's money. I think that SW works in a fine balance of providing new features with an acceptable stability level.

I think if you used SW 2008 with the same modeling/system limitations we had in SW 2000 we wouldn't have any crashes. So I think a bit of the blame has to do with what we ask SW to do, as we're always pushing it's limits.

60% of the time, it works every time.

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