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Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?
40

Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

(OP)
How frequently do you find yourself using something that you learned in college and applying to your job as an engineer?

Personally, the only time I use something from school at my job is when I use AutoCAD, which is practically never. Everything else I had to learn on my own. I've certainly never used any calculus, differential equations, FORTRAN, descriptive geometry, or just about any of the other classes I was required to take.

If experience is common, I wonder if all of these classes serve any purpose other than to weed out lazy and/or stupid students from the pool of potential engineers.

How about you? Do you actually use what you learned in school? How important do you feel your education was in training you how to perform your job?

-Christine

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

1% of the time I use what I learned in school
19% of the time I use what I learned between 1 and 10 years ago
30% of the time I use what I learned between 1 day and 12 months ago
50% of the time I improvise

Funnily enough I do think my education was very important.

I have not yet found out where exactly is the inconsistency in all this.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

2
Actaully - I have used a lot from my college days --- but I will grant you that most of the every day stuff I have learned on my own.  I actaully scolded a couple of professors for their lack of every day experience - they had NONE and I had worked some before college.  Didn't make any friends there....

College taught me:
   Ask Questions
   How to read a book
   How to find that book (most problems have already been solved by someone else - so let's not re-invent the wheel)
   To think

Thinking outside of the box I taught myself - there are way more solutions to a problem than you think.

Good Luck and hang in there

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Since I work with pumps every day, I use stuff from 1st year fluids every single day.  

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Quote:

How frequently do you find yourself using something that you learned in college and applying to your job as an engineer?

Well, there's been limited requirement in any of my positions for being able to down a pint in under 6 seconds (5.3 if I recall correctly was my personal best, with Guinness), drink a yard of ale without bouncing, run semi naked around a quad in under a minute or turn up to lectures next morning after 10 pints the night before.smile

(Actually that last one has come in useful a couple of times.winky smile)

As to the academic stuff.  

I have done a lot of drafting, and now design checking which I only had 6 labs on in school so most of that I learnt in industry.

I've done a little stress analysis so that came in useful but it was mostly to standard formulas not deriving from first principles etc.

I've done some very basic fluid dynamics/aerodynamic analysis so the first 2 years of that has been useful.

The things that have been most useful were probably the team design projects, they taught me a lot that has been useful and the design classes too.  Most obvious thing being "make sure of your requirement" which our design prof drilled into us.

I can't say I've used Propulsion, Thermodynamics, Advanced math (Grad, Div, Curl, X transforms, Laplace, Fourier etc.) once.

Some of the more targeted classes like aircraft systems, guidance & navigation etc have been useful as background in aerospace but I haven't directly applied them.

Do I think my education was important, yes although I admit day to day I mostly use stuff I either learnt on the job or at high school.  Also I don’t think my career path has been typical for people on my course.

With hindsight could it have been better/more focused, sure but I didn’t know that then.

I have to agree with Mike, most of the profs had never worked in the real world but been hole up doing research/learning since their teens.  More profs with real world experience would be good.  Also most of our profs were appointed because of the great research they did, not because they were good teachers.  Plus a spattering didn’t have very strong English which made their lectures interesting.  However, this should probably be saved for ‘how can engineering schooling be improved’.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

2
Christine74

In my experience, there are two (in Mechanical Engineering) ways to design, one is the straight forward design (with out using what you learned in school) like racks with electrical equipment that will sit in a lab, mostly commercial stuff.  The other is designing by analysis where you use what you learned in school and apply it to advance the product to pass violent environment qualifications such as military equipment.  

If you want to practice what you learned in school, the field you want to be in is analysis.  If you want to do hardcore heat transfer/vibration/shock/structure/materials designing military equipment is the way to go.  

You can also practice what you learned in school in any field, you just have to apply it even though it is not needed.  Everything has weight, generates heat, and vibrates in some form or fashion.  On what ever project you are working on, you can turn it into an analysis problem and then try to figure out the answer.  Who knows, you might come across a problem or a better way of doing things.

I feel that many ME college grads rush into a design so they can learn about the product, but don’t take the “initiative” to apply what they learned in school to make the product better.  Instead of looking at the product from a nuts and bolt view, you should look at it from a thermal, static, and dynamic view.  This is what you have been trained to do.

Good luck

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

"I've certainly never used any calculus, differential equations, FORTRAN, descriptive geometry"

- ditto, and I'll throw in chemistry, physics, and thermodynamics.


"If experience is common, I wonder if all of these classes serve any purpose other than to weed out lazy and/or stupid students from the pool of potential engineers".

I agree for the most part, but I also recall something that an English teacher said during senior year of high school said: "The purpose of the university is to provide a well-rounded, liberal education."  Of course in 1974 her definition of liberal had nothing to do with politics.

So we got a well-rounded, liberal education, which brings to mind something my driving teacher said about himself (a history major: "It great for cocktail parties".

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

- 50% of the time I use what I have learnt in the two years I've been at my job.
- 24% of the time I spend learning about new things that I wasn't even sure existed before someone decided to dump the problem on me.
- 24% of the time I use information from engineering courses that I took as electives and weren't even required to graduate.
- 2% of the time I use what I learnt in the classes I took that were actually required to graduate as a matls eng.

But all of the time I use the skills I needed to allow me to graduate.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

2
I can't say I use calculus or differential equations or physics very much, but you can't have a strong grasp of engineering fundamentals without those classes..... You just can't!
As far as the actual engineering classes - I may use exactly what I learned in class in my job, but what I learned in class laid the foundation for what I learn on the job.  Without the classes to give you an understanding of behavior and fundamentals, you would be lost getting tossed in the world of engineering with no specialized training.
I definitely feel like the education I received is critical to being able to perform my job competently.  I design with steel, concrete, and wood every day.  I could never just get thrown into that kind of work without learning what I did in college.  

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

If we always used what we learned in school, then everything we do as engineers would have to be dumbed down or simple enough for a student to handle.  

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

College taught me how to solve engineering problems.  Work taught me how to define them.  College taught me discipline and how to think.

As a practicing structural engineer, I probably use high school math/science stuff much more than college general req's in every day work.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

College taught me how to solve engineering problems using computers and simulation.  Companies taught me that tools and equipment are capital goods which compete with the CEOs pay and bonuses. Experience taught me how to engineer without the tools, equipment, and simulation anyway.

Seriously, what is taught in an undergraduate degree in school is to prepare you for a graduate degree, and what you learn there is what is needed for a doctorate.

I don't remember the details calculus, Fourier, or Fortran, but I encounter and use the principals almost every day. i.e. High rates of change in a signal with time increase higher frequency harmonics. Micros and computers don't care about being close to correct - garbage in/garbage out.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

The only thing I use from college is the financial aid office in order to pay back my loan big smile

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

What I learned in college, that is applied in work?

Not everyone in your team will pull their weight.

Everyone in your team will be recognized if you do good.

If you get a better grade (pay) then a peer, the peer will be mad at you.  Don't discuss grades (pay).

You have to participate in non-productive tasks (humanities/quality circles) to complete your task (graduate/merit increase).

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

The only classes I ever go back to are from my final (bonus) year of school.  I took an extra semester and a half of courses I didn't need to graduate, but that I had always wanted to take.  There were 2 industrial power courses in particular that were taught by a semi-retired consultant who also owned and ran his own engineering firm.  The year after I graduated, I found out that they cancelled the courses in favor of more theoretical ones.

It's my theory (at least for Electrical Engineering) that professors can be broken down into these categories:

1. People who love the research and/or teaching and feel it's their 'calling'. (10%)

2. People who have the technical skills, but no social ability or 'soft skills' and are unemployable outside of the university.  These people just kept going to school until they became professors. (90%)

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

What did I learn at college that I still use today.......

1. I learned how to analyse a problem.

2. I learned to ALWAYS write down your units as you solve a problem.

3. I learned that if you are doing a exam (design) and you have time left over, use it to check that you have actually done the right thing.

4. I learned that even though you think what you are doing at the moment is boring and trivial, there are gems to be found in everything, but you will always need time to show you the way...

Oh yeah.... try not to trample on people, coz people are generally very good at getting revenge

Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

15% Mc/I, P/A, F=ma (other such basic statics & mechanics & materials,

35% 4 years of high school drafting

35% learning new stuff

15% elementary school recess.

Wes C.
------------------------------
No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I think a lot of the more advanced stuff you learn, FFT, etc. is so if you ever do come across it in your job, it will not be the first time you see it. Engineering courses give you broad knowledge of all disciplines of engineering, with the obvious focus on your major. But when you get your job, they make you a master at one small piece of that broad knowledge. I think someone elese mentioned it before, if your job is not "pushing the envelope" and your company is willing to build and test thoroughly the concepts you design, then no heavy analysis is required before hand.

Me personally, I like it when I can predict what will happen with the math, then simulate it, and verify the both the math and simulation with testing. Though I rarely ever get enough time to do all to the extent I would like
:(  

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

StructuralEIT said it--you may not use calculus and physics directly, but you used calculus to do physics, and you used physics to do statics, and you used both to do strength of materials and dynamics, and if you don't use concepts of strength of materials, statics, or dynamics as a mechanical or structural engineer, then what on earth are you doing?

I had other "breadth" things that I don't use now like dynamics (not required for civil engineering outside seismic areas and not much required even in seismic), hydraulics/fluid mechanics, environmental engineering, soil mechanics, but someone headed for "civil engineering" needs to have at least seen that stuff.  How else would they know what branch of civil engineering they want?  Very few people entering school know the full breadth of what civil engineering can be.

Likewise for even broader engineering requirements--I don't use thermodynamics, circuit theory, or geology, but having one class in each was not a waste of time.  And now, looking at magnetic particle inspection and welding processes, I wish I'd made more of an effort to comprehend my E&M class.

It sounds like some people think engineering school should be like learning a trade.  Teach 'em a couple of analysis software packages, give 'em a tour of the relevant design manuals, and there ya go.

Hg

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RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I remember in school several semesters of different methods of circuit analysis before they got the a method of circuit analysis that was more useful, and that I ocassionally use today.

However, one of the most interesting courses was an I took Mechanics of Materials which was taught by a Civil Engineering professor. An unusual elective course for a future Electrical Engineer studying RF and Communications theory. No - I don't remember much about Mohr's Circle, but the professor filled in the time talking about his engineering experiences in contractual cases, testifying as an expert in court, and projects that went bad. These things I can still remember today, and sometimes I even apply the experiences passed on by this Professor.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

One of my grad school professors once told me that "most undergrad engineers graduate and only take with them stress is Mc/I and don't push on a rope."

I actually use a lot of my design courses now (Steel and concrete in undergrad, masonry, timber, prestressed, etc. in grad).  And obviously statics and strength of materials daily.  I can't say I still use double integrals to solve for deflection.  But I will say I've learned most of what I know now OTJ.  

Most undergrad curricula in civil involve taking Thermo, Water Resources, Circuits, Hydraulic Engineering, Fluid Mechanics, etc. and I know I don't use much of that material anymore (thank God I got that FE out of the way in undergrad!)  But I do believe that, more than anything, those courses mold your mind to think a certain way -- to analyze a complex problem and work through a suitable solution... and that's what we, as engineers, are faced with daily.  So I still will say they are beneficial.  

Can't speak much for those catholic-university required theology courses I had to take though...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I am continually surprised at how much I rely on what I remember from college, don't know the percentage, it's significant.  Many people tell me that they don't utilize what they learned, but I find that hard to believe and worrisome.

Maybe it depends on how good of a memory one has, how enjoyable the college experience was to apply credit or if a practical example was used to explain the subject matter and retain it.  etc....

==========================================
Business Site     http://mech.e.tripod.com
------------------------------------------
Cycle Utopia.......www.tailofthedragon.com

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

School is the foundation on which rest of our career develops. We may not be using it directly, but our further learnings were based on that, as HGTX stated. We use our rooms and rest rooms. Do we use the foundation of the building? Of course we do, be it indirectly.

Ciao.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I am afraid I am a quite generalist engineer because I am a FEM user, a bridge designer and sometimes I am a flood river analist therefore I use most of the basic concepts of continuum mechanics, numerical methods, statictics, geometry, CAD, programming (Matlab and VisualBasic) and such.

There are lots of differential equations embedded in most of the engineering software and you must be aware of the meaning of them although you do not remember how to solve them.

http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

"Many people tell me that they don't utilize what they learned, but I find that hard to believe and worrisome."

Well, yes and no. Maybe the 1% I mentioned in the beginning was exagerrated, and I do think it is after having read about restrooms and foundations, but I think the percentage depends a lot on whether you're in a specialist or a generalist career type. (Note by the way that using 1% of what you learned or using something you learned 1% of the time is not the same at all).

I would indeed not believe and worry about a researcher in e.g. heterogeneous catalysis who used what he learned at school only 1% of the time, but also would I not believe and worry about a CEO who spends 90% of his time using what he learned at school. If anyone at senior management level still ever does a Laplace transform, writes in C++ or runs an HYSIS simuliation, something is seriously wrong.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Mostly I learned how to think like an engineer in engineering school.

I always think like an engineer so I use 100% of what I learned in school every day.

However, most of the practical facts that I use I learned after school.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

"but I think the percentage depends a lot on whether you're in a specialist or a generalist career type. "

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Many of the Mechanical Engineers that I work with are really at the nuts and bolts stage (generalist), trying to put together hardware to meet the demand.  Once they have somthing (cradle stage), they call me in to do the thermal/dynamic analysis (specilalist)and then I report back on what they have is good or a recommendation to improve that was based on my calculations.  

As said earlier, I feel that most college grads jump into the design and start working from a nuts and bolts point of view and like some strange illness they forgot their four years of college and never apply what they learned.  Time slips by and before you know it they forgot most of their knowledge and start sending their work out to be analyized.  

I do believe it is the prerogative of the grad to apply what they learned from the get go, if not, four years down the line you will send your design out to sombody that has the knowledg that you "once" had.

Please, apathy kills $100,000 (tuition) worth of college brain cells, use them or loose them.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

The most useful class to me is probably typing which I learned in 8th grade without letters on the keyboard.

As far as college, effective writing, statistics as a junior are still applied in my job.

As far as my metallurgist job, I would have to say the physics courses I still apply quite often.

Otherwise the most important part of college to me was learning how to manage time and how to solve problems. But I have no regrets at all.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

100% of what I've learned I seem to use some of the time.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

In my career, I've had to use a lot more of the technical stuff I learned in college than I ever thought I would.

A few others have mentioned that what you actually use in the "real world" may be what you learned in college in disguise.  For example, you probably use the fundamentals of calculus, i.e., the concept of changing rates with time, in more situations than you think.  It may hardly ever be in a quantitative way, but the concept is used in some way in just about any engineering field.

Also what you have learned in the past is both very important and eerily subtle too somehow.

I once heard an analogy about this:  You probably don't remember what you had for dinner on May 7, 1998, or June 10, 2001, or maybe even two days ago, but each of those meals, even though you remember nothing about them, allowed you to be physically nourished so that you could be alive today!

In the case on this thread, I think the same goes for mental “nourishment” too.  You are who you are because of your past experiences to this point….I wonder if what we read, what we watch on TV, and the people we associate with have any bearing on who we will be in ten or twenty years?

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I keep my university notes any text books at work.  They are often thumbed.  Sometimes I find that the stuff I blindly copied when 20 yrs old now makes sense so I'm glad I crawled in and copied from the overhead.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

My job is mostly related to one process, so I'm not doing running numbers all day long, like a stress-engineer. When I do calculations, it typically relates to the machine (bolt-torques, keyways, static analysis). Though a circuits class many years ago is highly useful whenever I have to do some electrical troubleshooting or read a wiring diagram.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I just spoke to someone who’s on an ASME committee which is looking at the gap between what they teach you at school and what employers expect you to have.  

For instance it seems most new mechanical grads (at least in UK/US) can’t interpret a drawing, let alone create one or do a tolerance analysis.  I know many will say this is the job of designers/drafters but even if you work somewhere with a drafter if it’s your project and you need to sign off on it isn’t it a good idea to generally understand it?

Maybe being intellectually superior the Engineering Grad should be able to teach themselves or pick it up quick  but it is an example of a gap.

Twoballcane.  If the new grads are doing this extra analysis on their own time great.  However if doing it cuts into their productivity (new grad who analysis everything only designed one box this week, the ‘nuts and bolts’ generalist designed 10) then in the reality of the work place this won’t work out.

Sure they may discover that they don’t need to use 1/4 “ screws they can use #10s, in many situations this wont make a cost/safety impact that justifies the time spent.

I will admit I wish I’d done more analysis as I’ve fallen into your ‘nuts and bolts generalist’ category however my jobs haven’t needed it.  

I’ve started doing a little when I have time and can justify it but when I have a several week backlog and they’ve just had layoffs doing a thorough stress analysis of a lightly loaded part which is essentially just a space holder isn’t a good use of my time.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I think thats the key point KENAT, as the engineer the toughest/most important part of the job is making assumptions. I make assumptions on my prelim calcs for machine design because it takes me 1/10th of the time. When making those assumptions I make a prediction on whether the actual results should be higher or lower. But when I have 10 designs to complete and the sales department promised a production date, the assumptions start to become time dependent.

The art of engineering is balancing the scales of analysis and synthesis. Both are required for successful design, but the extent to which you oerform either depends on experience and time constraints.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

The relevant gap is not between what schools TEACH and what employers EXPECT but between what you have LEARNT and and what companies NEED.

http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

kenat,

I agree with you that there has to be balance between the designing time and analysis time, however it is sad to see some bright kids to come in and get bog down by design details that a designer should be handeling and then four years later forgot everything they learned from college and now stuck doing what the company started them with.  Now you have one expensive designer instead of sombody who can use their analysis methodes to improve the product.

As what you guys described as what the gap is between the college is teaching and company expecting.  Interpret drawings and tolerance studies are "skills" that you pick up in industrie and every industrie is different, and the designer that worked in that industrie knows it...well...because s/he has been working in that industrie for awhile.  Hay, even the designer had to start from some where to learn stuff like that, so why are the new grads hazed because they don't know how to read drawings or conduct a proper tolerance study from the start?  I'm sure if you can read drawings in one industrie, you can not read drawings in another industrie.

"new grad who analysis everything only designed one box this week, the ‘nuts and bolts’ generalist designed 10"

It could also be that the grad's box is correct and the generalist has 10 incorrect boxes. If the product is just a box with some CCAs in it that will sit in a nice comfortable lab, I can see what you are saying.  However, if the box has to survive Mil Specs that has some voilent enviorements or your life depends on this box not to over heat or reach its cycles to failure from some unknown forcing frequency (thermal/dynamic) I don't think it is as simple as that.  I have seen some "flying off the vib table" failures from COTS manufactures who said that they have beefed up there product but doing so with out anaysis, just their designer's best guess.  When I hear that there was no analysis done to make changes for a thermal/dynamic/static reason, I cringe.  

For the flying off the table incedent, some company beefed up their brackets, which add more weight, which brought the product close to the forcing frequency, inturn added more Gs (bigger Q), and because of this failed the fasteners.  And when on fastern goes and it starts to bonce of the table, well it turned out to be a good show.  The desiger was there and he said "wow I did not see that coming".



Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Twoballcane, before I posted I checked with a German Mechanical Intern.

He has done some drawing, tol analysis etc and even did a project on it.

So not every country expects you to pick it up in industry.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

2
what I learned in college that I apply to my work:
1) how to use excel to make nice looking graphs from really bad work

2) how to type reports

3) the importance of CYA

4) how to pull stuff out of my @$$ when needed (homework, reports, exams, etc.)

5) how to measure stuff

6) how to sketch

the funny thing is...i learned all that in a sophomore course...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I personally feel that my school education is very useful to my career, and I have used a lot of the things that I learned in school. In the many years since I graduated, of course I also had to learn a lot more in my career.

Believe it or not, I did use the following that I learned in school:
- FORTRAN, SOPL, Pascal, APL
- partial differential equations and how to solve them
- heat transfer, thermodynamics
- equipment sizing
- how to find information (various sources)
- estimation when I can't find the information I need (this is a big one for me)
- how to write a technical report
- how to interview for a job
- and the list goes on

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Hi,

One of my teachers said: "A good engineer is that one which can find what he need and knows where to find the right information". School is very good to train you for this.

Regards
Fernando

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

wes616 - four years of high school drafting; are you a Brooklyn Tech graduate?

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I think you will surprised how much of what you learned in university you use every day.

University teaches you how to think, and most importantly how to learn.

csd

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Some of you guys are completely missing the big picture.

Generalists are great if you are in a commodity driven market and not interested in advancing anything.  If you just want to minimize outflow and maximize your product/service, then by all means hire all super fast cad guys.

A good engineer though will see all those details, take the analysis, and generate (and produce) ideas that will advance the field.

It is an investment to know something truly well, to the point that you can take it to the next level.  Hire those people that have the ability to take it to the next level, and empower them to do it.

I can't stand the productivity is everything approach to the workplace.  Great way to burnout employees and completely KILL creativity!!!

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Kenat,

I must be missing somthing on the drawings and tolerance studies.  I have taken a drawing class back in college.  If I remember, what it tought me was that the notes are on the upper left hand corner, scale and drawing name on the lower right hand corner, drawing in the center, baloons with find numbers to point out the parts that will refer back to a parts list,...etc.  Somthing very general and simple, it maybe took a whole three days for the person to explain this to us in class.  Not until I got into industrie that I found out that the company had its own standard notes to use (you could not make up your own notes which I thougt you could), some programs like to have their parts list on the drawings and some like to have it separate, and baloons everywhere calling out everything.  Even special symbols to call out flatness and roundness.  There was a whole array of stuff to learn.  And it even got worst when dealing with vendors with their own way of doing their drawings with different notes and symbols.  There is a big diffence between drawing up CCA and a simple bracket.  

In any case, there are so many ways of making up drawings that it would be dificult to capture all different industies and make some sense and try to teach it in college.  So the only way to become compatent in reading a drawing is to spend time in the industrie to learn all the diffrents quarks that the design/engineer will put together.

Tolerance studies is another. It probly took one class to learn how to do a tolerance study in the same drawing class.  In school I think I learnd how to do it by RMS.  But in industrie, I had some Manufacture Engineers insist that tolerance study should be done in absolute.  For example CCAs, after the part, epoxy, perlayer of the board, copper run, finish,...etc Ill have a tolerance build up of 100 mils instead of RMS  of 10 mils (Im exaggerating).  So again in industry, I had to learn other people's little quarks to get them their answer.

imho, if you come out of college and don't find ways of using the classes that you took to your benefit in the comany or finding work that will require your analysis skills , then you should not be complaining that college was a wast of time, but that you are in the wrong job for your skill set.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Kenat, after reading what I posted, it sounded argumental, which I did not intend.  Please evoke the emotions of some good friends in a bar having a riveted conversation. :)

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Twoballcane,

I probably have my own chip on my shoulder (or should that be frysmile) as I'm repeatedly confronted by people who massively (in my opinion) downplay the importance of design communication, so for me it's a hot topic.  Also my drafting class didn't even go into as much detail as yours, no mention of tolerances or notes, just a few labs on how to use Autosketch and some very basic methods of generating projected views.

I also have an issue that the best analyst type 'engineer' I ever worked with didn't have a degree, he was older and had gone the apprenticeship route, I still haven't met a better stress guy and I've met/worked with some with masters etc.  So I take issue with the way some people imply/go on about having a degree making you superior.

To me there's difference between being a generalist and giving up engineering to be a CAD Monkey.  

IMO A generalist knows enough to do basic analysis and make a judgment call on when more detailed analysis is required.  They also know enough to get the various experts talking to each other.  Maybe I think this way because my course was actually Aerospace Systems which stressed knowing enough about each topic just to know where you want to get and to get the specialists talking, maybe it’s due to my (limited) Industry experience.

A CAD jockey doesn't always (ever?) think about whether to do analysis, typically can't do it if he wanted to and by default either does everything without analysis or forwards everything to specialists.

I guess I like the definition/description Dan Raymer uses for design:

Quote:

Aircraft Design is a separate discipline of aeronautical engineering - different from the analytical disciplines such as aerodynamics, structures, controls, and propulsion. An aircraft designer needs to be well versed in these and many other specialties, but will actually spend little time performing such analysis in all but the smallest companies. Instead, the designer's time is spent doing something called "design", creating the geometric description of a thing to be built.

http://www.aircraftdesign.com/book.html

I know it’s about Aircraft but I think it’s true beyond that limited scope.  If you read on in the link it differentiates design from simple drafting but I didn’t want the quote to be too long.  Also there’s more to it than just the geometric description (specs/requirements…) but I hope my meaning is clear.

Anyway I doubt I’ll win this one but it’s my 2C worth.

It’s also interesting because at least one boss I had steered me away from specializing in just one type of analyst, he valued a good generalist more highly.

However, this is off topic from the OP, I use a lot of my schooling in a very general, back ground information type of way.  I use relatively little of it directly in detail, doesn’t mean it was a waste of time though.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Ken,

This is where I fall between the lines again whenit comes to the definition of engineer, designer, design engineer and what the guys in that States and in Europe see as the deviding line between those disciplines......

I love your quote above, it describes what I consider my job to be (my title quite simply reads Design Engineer, and even though I do that job on contract, that is what I do). I take a 'fuzzy' concept, a idea from marketing, and a vague direction from the Engineering technical director and make that all into machine or a component system. My job is infancy to middle age of my products and after that a bit of nursing home care.....

But when you look at what that has to do with the specificas of my college career,  there isn't a massive correlation. Sure I use my stress calcs, sure I use my drawing knowledge, but what I design is built on the last 13 years experience and that is what I am paid for.

PS One I learned from my Dad, another design engineer...If you ever read a drawing and the Scale Box reads NTS, always assume that that means Not Too Sure

Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Thanks Kevin, I was starting to think it was just me.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

KENAT, you're not the least qualified checker as long as i'm still around, lol!

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

calguy07, fight you for itsmile

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Calguy07 & Ken,

Easy to judge this fight...First one of you to get fired is the winner...Ready, set go

Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Well, I must confess that I have used very little bit what I learned in university, at least as it is taught there. Of course I used some of the concepts.
Due to my current responsibilities, I actually used much more what I've learned in my MBA than actually in university, even is sometimes I still have to dust some chemistry and thermodynamics.
What university taught me was: analytical reasoning, problem solving abilities and how to make a semester homework in only 3 nights. This last one is very useful when time is such expensive commodity...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

“downplay the importance of design communication”

Design communication is different from one company to another and even more different from industry to another.  To try to teach this in college is difficult and maybe more difficult do to our technology is moving so fast.  There is no design communication “standards” out there, just loose guidelines a company may follow but use in their own way.  

“I also have an issue that the best analyst type 'engineer' I ever worked with didn't have a degree, he was older and had gone the apprenticeship route, I still haven't met a better stress guy and I've met/worked with some with masters etc.  So I take issue with the way some people imply/go on about having a degree making you superior.”

Hmmm, I did not mention anything about degrees needed for a specific field, but since you brought this up.  If you have people doing any kind of engineering work with out an engineering degree, I would be very suspicious about your company.  I would not tell my customers that the work that was done on their project (which they are spending thousands of dollars) was done by people that only had a high school education.  I have met more great engineers with degrees than so called engineers with out degrees.  An engineer with his degree has a more in-depth knowledge of his field than the non-degreed engineer.  IMO the non-degreed engineer is just mimicking the degree engineer with out really know what s/he is doing.  I would certainly not go to an accountant who did not have his accounting degree or a doctor who did not have a medical degree.  Why is this different with engineering?  I can keep track of my checking account, but that does not make me an accountant.  I can put a bandage on my daughters’ booboo, but that does not make me a doctor.  So if a few people can do some math and put some equations together, I would not call them engineers.

“IMO A generalist knows enough to do basic analysis and make a judgment call on when more detailed analysis is required.  They also know enough to get the various experts talking to each other.  Maybe I think this way because my course was actually Aerospace Systems which stressed knowing enough about each topic just to know where you want to get and to get the specialists talking, maybe it’s due to my (limited) Industry experience.”

A generalist is a person who may be a jack of all trades but master of none.  Just as you indicated that you have to get the “experts” talking to each other.  I (not to sound like an a$$ hole) am one of the experts you are talking about when it come to analysis and test.  At this level I am using everything I learned in school.  All of the theoretical stuff, but to prove it out I test and then correlate.  I still do calculus to look for rates and integrals to find the area under curves.

My point is a lot of smart kids end up as generalist and then complain that they are doing work that has nothing to do with what they did in school.  If they get out of the generalist role and into an expert role that had something similar to what they did in college, you would be more satisfied with your career.  If you don’t and stay in the same role, then you can only blame your self.  The work is out there, you just have to find it.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Twoballcane or is it Tobalcane

Our experiences must differ somewhat or else one or both of us is completely wrong/an arrogant *%^%*&^ whatever.

I think a large part of it may be that I grew up, attended school and started my career in the UK.  I’m assuming you are US.  If so cultural differences may explain it.

Quote:

There is no design communication “standards” out there

I suspect those that prepared the ASME Y14 series, BS 8888 etc (can’t remember the iso number) may beg to differ.  Every sector of Industry (for instance I know the above have limited applicability in construction) and even more so each company has some differences but certain fundamentals are pretty common, at least within a country.  I’m not talking about every Engineer being able to operate every CAD system or even being able to be a fully trained drafter/detailer.  I am saying that the attention paid to this by my degree, and from talking to others at least some other degrees, was arguably inadequate.  It seems your degree did spend more time on this area than mine, maybe enough, I don’t know.  The concept of tolerance wasn’t even mentioned on my degree and having questioned some interns from US schools the same seems true.

I’ve seen good basic designs turn into a nightmare due to poor design documentation, so yeah, I think it’s important.  What’s the point in having the best basic concept using thorough analysis to prove it will work etc if it’s documented so poorly no one can make it, at least cost effectively.  Yes a lot of this burden does/can rest on non engineer draftsmen/designers but if I come up with a design I want to know enough to make sure they’ve communicated it correctly, otherwise I’ve potentially wasted my time.

The degree thing wasn’t specifically aimed at anything you’d put.  However, your response was pretty typical of what I’ve come to expect.  Not that long ago, at least in the UK, it wasn’t unusual for ‘engineers’ to come through the apprenticeship route, in fact when I started out I was asked why I’d gone straight for the degree not done some kind of apprenticeship.  The person I was referring to in my previous post was the chief stress engineer for a UK defence company and was a government approved signatory for aircraft certification, he knew what he was doing.  

Quote:

An engineer with his degree has a more in-depth knowledge of his field than the non-degreed engineer.
.
In this case, nonsense, he knew a hell of a lot more about stress analysis than I (or any degreed colleagues at the time) with my fancy degree, as did at least one of the other guys who had actually been an instructor at an apprentice training school on government dockyard (back in the day when they actually did their own engineering).  Both these guys must be 60 by now, same for the one US guy I know who I think took a similar route and was good (he may have got his degree, I’m not sure).  

I will admit most of the younger people (even in their 40s) that had gone apprentice route didn’t seem to have the same level of technical/analytical knowledge, and most of the non Bachelors guys I work with now are weak in those areas too.

Personally I want to design things, using analysis to help me do that well/optimize design etc rather than just creating a pretty picture which is unrealistic.  I don’t want to spend all day/week/year analyzing one strut or simple system unless I really need to, so maybe I’m just not well suited to being a number crunching analyst.  If this means I’m less ‘smart’ and you think less of me then so be it, the engineers I wanted to be like were RJ Mitchell, Barnes Wallis, Sydney Camm etc.

I’m rambling now and am unlikely to win the argument so I’m probably wasting my time, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

While I agree that in the UK a lot of good or great engineers came in via the apprenticeship route, typically they also did night school, and got a thorough grounding in engineering theory.

Just because it wasn't called an engineering degree doesn't mean it was any easier.

However, I do agree with Tubal Cain, if you feel that your education is underutilised then you need to specialise. In my career I have used, directly, at least 40% of what I learnt at uni, and am (slowly) learning /more/ maths at the moment.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Thanks Greg, probably should have mentioned that in addition to the basic apprenticeship they got HNC/HND but my post was already too long.  Not sure quite what the US equivalent is, something like an associates maybe?

I remember trying to help one apprentice with his homework, sure made my brain ache on a couple of the questions.  It was a little more applied than my more theoretical degree but not necessarily easier as you say.

At my last place in the UK I'd just started to line up getting to work more closely with the chief stress engineer, to use more of my education, when I went and met a US girl and moved.  Best laid plans...  I do now have a copy of Roarke, that must count for somethingsmile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Roarke?-You have taken the first step on the path to the Dark side. Congratulations young Jedi.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

KENAT,

Lets shake hands and call it a draw ;+)

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Oh...I am from the US

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Back to the main topic...

I had to formulate a discrete version of a continuous transfer function the other day.  Eventually I opened my (hazy) university notes and found them much better than anything I'd read elsewhere.  Anyway, we have a new feature in our software's next release that was developed using university lecture notes from 1988.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Two days ago...

Used basic statics to show a designer how to compare relative stiffness and strength of a cantilevered arm made from tubing.  Also made a spreadsheet to compare various sections.

Statics 101, but now I look like a demigod.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Last week...

Calculated the Overall Coefficien of Heat Transfer for a heat exchanger (using the logarithmic temperature difference)that we needed and also proved to other MEs that an exhaust with vains that the air will actually come out faster not slow down using Bernoulli Equations.  

This week...
Will dive into random vib where Ill start calclating the frequancies, deflections, stresss, and strains using hand calcs and vib data.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Sure, I used a Schwarz-Christoffel transform, once, about 25 years ago.  Since then, I've used stuff from classes I didn't take.

The big question is really whether or not your education gave you a decent foundation for doing engineering.  Do you have the mathematical skills to understand the equations for calculating Reynolds' numbers, heat coefficients, and power spectral densities.  

You don't have to be doing this all the time, but the question is whether you can when it's required.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

I agree with you IRStuff.  When you do analysis you should always try to correlate with somthing else to make sure your moving in the right direction.  For my fluids last week I correlated with Flotherm using their recirculater. For my random vib it will be a cross between hand calcs, vib data and ProM.  

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Calculus 2 & 3 and physics was important so I can know what the heck those triple integrals meant when engineering equipment and that hoop stress wasnt a basketball rim.  Haha, but on a serious note...it just wouldnt feel right to have a science in engineering degree without those courses learned.

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

Hah!  I just answered a question with "do a double integral."



Although, that was learned in high school, and not college...

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Do You Use What You Learned in School for Your Job?

everyday

though, if someone asks for a differential equation i'll break out into hives.

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