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Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility
20

Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

2
(OP)
IMHO: too many engineers don't bother with their responsibility to be good citizens.  Instead of making an effort to be informed and participating in guiding the course of the nation, they are blasé and allow politicians (mostly lawyers, some corrupt) and special interest groups to shape our future.  

Example: The ASCE calculated that $1.6 trillion is needed over a five-year period to bring the nation's infrastructure to a good condition. This would boost the economy, productivity and quality of life throughout the US.  See http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm

But instead, a huge, non-productive spending is going into a black hole outside the US (Iraq), increasing the national debt and incurring long-term costs which will bring the total spent to possibly $2 Trillion including long-term health care to disabled vets.  Perhaps even worse, the US is furnishing men & women, vehicles and buildings for terrorist live-fire targets. The righteous rage of Americans over 9/11 got conned into supporting "the worst foreign policy mistake" in the 200+ history of the US [conservative columnist Pat Buchanan].  
For a total Iraq war cost estimate from Harvard & Columbia professors (including the 2001 Nobel laureate in economics), see
'Iraq Black Hole
The $2-Trillion War'
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050682.html

BYW, when allocating resources to a given project, the consequences of not funding alternatives must be considered. Indirect costs of the Iraq fiasco in my opinion will be even greater than referenced above.
  
Consider the consequences of having redeployed men, materiel and intelligence assets from Afghanistan: A resurgent Taliban, no justice for 9/11, record opium poppy crop, an expensive eradication program rather than a logical solution, a weakened government in (nuclear-capable) Pakistan...
 
Also, the US Navy has reduced surveillance and interdiction of cocaine traffickers in the Eastern Pacific off Latin America by 50% and by more than two-thirds in the Caribbean (and all but 5 of the DEA's Black Hawk helicopters assigned to the Caribbean have been taken away, with those 5 due to go by Oct). Consequences are a doubling of the cocaine supply to the US (Pentagon estimate) and drug/civil wars in Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico.
The impact is enormous.

The recent Minneapolis bridge collapse illustrates that politicians have been setting the wrong priorities for the US, while making us all pay.  Remember the $231M 'bridge to nowhere' in Alaska?  The $500M added to the Katrina & War funding bill in May 2006 to move a railroad ( rebuilt within 10 days of Katrina) & highway inland in order to build resorts & casinos along Mississippi's Gulf coast?

How has all this happened?  In part, we as citizens haven't held politicians accountable. Being informed is the first step. Be skeptical about what they say – follow the money trails. I hope that in the future, engineers help steer the nation's course of action, rather than passively waiting for possible job assignments to trickle down.

P.S. If hesitant about getting involved or voicing an opinion, remember that w/o funding, engineering wouldn't be a profession, merely an academic exercise – and homework gets red-flagged!

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

7
1.) We aren't the least bit shy about offering our opinions and being civic orientated, but sound bite politics trump logic in even otherwise intelligent beings.

2.) Perhaps it will be 2 Trillion down a " Black hole ", however what good would 2 Trillion do with Infrastructure improvements when there are Religious zealots who have made it their stated intention to destroy far more than our "revitalized" infrastructure?

Somehow I do not believe it is quite as simple of an equation as you propose.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

I'd guess if you work in defense, not all that money is going into a black hole/outside US!  It was sure good for business where I used to work.

As to Lawyers in politics, I'm inclined to agree.  That said I looked at a list of the professions of American presidents and a lot of them (I think more than half) were lawyers, including the likes of Lincoln.  

patdaly, the link between the old Iraq regime and fundamentalist terrorists is a bit tenuous from what I've seen and heard.  There were plenty of reasons to justify the invasion if you had a mind to, my biggest question was why 2003 and not some time in the previous 10+ years or wait till Afghanistan was more stable.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Kenat:

Unfortunately discussions like these turn into ill advised political discourse due to the sound bite political rhetoric we are fed. I am with you in that the reasons for invasion were at best, poorly articulated. Removing my emotion from the mix though, I must say I see less justification for invading Afghanistan than Iraq though. The Taliban certainly never did us any harm.

In the end we will find ourselves forced to go into places we really do not want to and do things we really have no stomach for unless we are willing to live in either a police state or a state of constant fear, neither of which I am personally fond of.

Getting back to the civic part of this thread, how can we disseminate factual information to the American public when the majority of them have a 15 second attention span? Look at how the bridge collapse is being reported and tell me how we as Engineers can get factual evidence out in the face of reporting such as this?

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

I'm sure that there are numerous good causes that deserve to be funded by the government. But there simply isn't enough money for all of them. The government therefore prioritizes. I think that its a hard sell to fund "preventive maintenance" on objects that are physically passive in nature, like infrastructure. Most folks will assume that such funding is a kickback from a politician to a contractor who was a political campaign supporter. The public has simply lost faith in the government to use taxpayer money constructively.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

It will be interesting to see how long this thread lasts.

I don't feel particularly motivated to be an involved citizen because of the disrespect that I feel coming from the government. My opinion, when offered, isn't valued; the suggestions I make are contrary to the direction this country is heading. It is hard, and getting harder, to change the direction of the juggernaut of debt and hatred created by the politics of recent years.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Here's a chart showing the budget for MnDOT over the last several years:



This comes from the state's budget report, drafted last November. This clearly shows trendlines that confirm increased budgeting for MnDOT, and an annual budget of around $2 billion in 2006 and projected at the same level for the next several years. Except for 2003 when Minnesota had a spike in its Trunk Highway funds, that represents a steady funding level for the last few years.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

"But instead, a huge, non-productive spending is going into a black hole outside the US (Iraq), "

You think it's a black hole.  The money reappears mainly around Houston.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Not all of the 2 trillon is a black hole, didn't some 3,000,000 people have jobs?

What about the  $2 trillon spent on illegal aliens?    

What about bilions lost by Enron? Where were the engineers saying NO?

Nobody wants to work anymore because its hard to say no and easier to say let them do what they want.  

Why do the lower end of the bell curve engineers become in control and allow things to go bad?

Because we have decided that everyone is equal and one vote, as Rodney Dangerfield use to say, "I get no respect".

I enjoyed working in Mexico where I was called Engenero William, just like a Doctor was called Doctor William.

To many why's.  I'm contemplating running for a school board position.  I'd only last a term because I'd just say NO, to many times.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Ken,

Interesting post (thread starter) and well worth a star.....

Have to admit that it kind of took me by surprise that a US engineer (actually to be fair I'm impressed that anyone US, European etc) would think this way and be open enough to post his thoughts.

Some of your post I believe is bang on the money. There is a very insiduous attitude (and not just among engineers) that the corporate principle of profit at any cost has now become the Westerm way of life and for some mantra. Our (and I mean globally) politicians have embraced this principle with open arms. Who can blame them for this... well me personally. I know I sound like a religious nut here, but I firmly believe that you have to live your life to a moral code (and not one you have invented for yourself) that has at its core respect for others, respect for your God. These two controls are basic building blocks, they allow interaction between people whereby there is respect and thus allow a society to live in that manner as well (Civic Responsibility)

Turning a blind eye to the direction that society has been led cannot mitigate a person's responsibilty, if anything it allows those who are pushing the boundaries of human behaviour a free rein. Those of us who are outraged by the actions of our leaders should shout about it, should complain and should try our damnest to change people's attitudes.

Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

The introductory paragraph in the OP is excellent. You had my interest until the rest that followed. Politics should not be discussed in this engineering forum. Everyone has an opinion about the war, so leave it at the door.

Quote:

How has all this happened?  In part, we as citizens haven't held politicians accountable. Being informed is the first step. Be skeptical about what they say – follow the money trails. I hope that in the future, engineers help steer the nation's course of action, rather than passively waiting for possible job assignments to trickle down.

We did have one Engineer that was in a position of power - President Carter. Review what happened during his term in office regarding infrastructure improvements. Do I need to say more?

Like any great country, the US could be on a downcyle for some time to become because of a lack of interest in technical education, lack of a family unit, dealing with a global economy..... Engineers are a small minority in the US when it comes to voting. I vote my conscience and sleep well at night, I don't worry about what I can't control.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

But he didn't do a dam thing for ussmile

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Cool, I love rant threads!

Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex because War is a very profitable business.

He was afraid that the profitable nature of war would wind up being a too powerful influence over government policy.

Terrorists attempting to bring about the economic down fall of the US by destroying the WTC had it sort of backwards.

If you go to the CDC websites you can find statistics that show you 500, 000 Americans die from heart disease every year, 3,000 or so Americans were killed in the WTC.

Bin Laden would have been better off taking the funds he raised and starting a fast food chain.

Sadly, there is probably no easy way to avoid the massive blood bath that's coming over there. In the end it will be interesting to see who's Iraqi citizen body count is higher. Saddam's or George's.

Anarchy didn't turn out to be a step closer to Democracy. Anarchy was a fairly predictable outcome.



RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Commonsense dictates that there's a certain point beyond which repair is no longer sensible- re-building is required.

Our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents spent money building vast amounts of infrastructure which has now reached the end of its useful life.  And since taxes are not dedicated to specific purposes, governments grease the wheels that squeak loudest.  Bridges fall

So what we need to do is to stop funding these projects out of general tax revenue:  we need to do it by means of user fees.  Road tolls.  Dedicated fuels surtaxes.  Water and sewer use charges etc.

Just rebuilding the existing network of sewers and watermains in major urban centres over 100 years old will be crushingly expensive.

As to the Iraq thing:  it's all a result of US foreign policy mistakes over the past fifty years- all in an attempt to keep the cheap oil flowing.  You can't properly understand what's happened and what is currently happening in Iraq and Afghanistan without looking at the American support for the Shah of Iran etc.  Another reason to fix the oil addiction pronto by whatever means are possible.



RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

kontiki99,

I am not sure that the way the US tends to conduct war is very profitable.  Perhaps for the manufacturers of weapons.  The US spends its wealth to create weapons systems, expends them on the destruction of a countries infrastructure, and then spends more of its wealth rebuilding the infrastructure it just destroyed and then eventually leaves.  Ever watch the film "The Mouse that Roared"?

In my view, the current issue is conducting a physical war against an idea.  The idea, being however flawed, is that by "terrorizing" a populace, you will get a government to do what you want.  What eventually happened in Afghanistan and Iraq appears to be that the US hoped that by holding a government responsible for the actions of terrorist groups within it's country would have a dampening effect on their capabilities.  The added "bonus" would be that a new government might be friendlier to the US as well.  I think this remains to be seen.

Off hand, I do not see the cultural "value" systems of western civilizations taking root within the middle east.  Certainly not by force.  The wealth expended, could likely have done much more good if applied to different purposes.

In my view, Afghanistan was a win even without Bin-Laden being captured.  The original purpose in Iraq was weapons of mass destruction potentially getting into terrorist hands.  These were not found and the mission appeared to "change" to taking Saddam Hussein out of power.  That did happen.  The question is how long to stay and pick up the pieces without the chance of knowing the outcome.  The US populace wants to bring the troops home.  They are still in harms way.  At the same time, we have troops in european bases over 60 years since the end of WW 2 and for 50+ years in Korea.  The populace does not complain.  I am not an isolationist by any stretch, just showing a potential comparison.

I have probably rambled enough.

Regards,

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Re engineering involvement in political decision-making... well, join your favorite policitical party or start your own, run for senator, run for president! But don't forget that engineering is engineering and politics is politics, you just can't optimise your country's internal and foreign politics like you can optimise a car suspension or a pygas hydrofiner while the ultimate power is to people with an attention span of 15 seconds.

Re Iraq... well I guess it seemed like a good idea to the people in charge at the time based on the information they thought they had. Let's focus on the future. I may sound very un-French but I'm amazed how Europe and also the other Middle Eastern countries stand back and let the US plod on in Iraq. Heck Iraq is so much closer to Europe than it is to the US, if you count Turkey as European it's even a neighboring country. Iraq (together with Afghanistan) is the core of the problem that I expect will terrorise the rest of the world throughout the rest of the 21st century.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

4
The infrastructure deficit was a topic in ENR when I started 30+ years ago.

The collapse of 35W last week is simply one of many failures, large and small that will occur until this issue is addressed.

We as engineers look at problems and can usually come up with either the optimum solution or at least a practical one that will work over the planning horizon.

Politicians on the other hand live and die by sound bites and pools. Engineers would charge either through taxes or as user fees enough to pay for the repairs to the infrastructure, politicians would rather spend borrowed money on a new bridge and let the existing ones rot as there is no votes in raising taxes or in maintenance.

I once got involved in a national lobbing effort. I met most of the high level politicians of the day, both provincially and nationally (in Canada) and every one of them had already made up their minds without letting the facts bother them. They all made statements strictly in line with their party’s basic ideology with only one exception. He  was a mechanical engineer by training.

You want to get involved? As advised above, run for office, join your political party but be prepared for the illogic of political life.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Even as the governor of Minnesota is reversing his position on a statewide gas tax for infrastructure improvement (he's no longer ridiculing the idea), GWB has come out against one on the national level.  The responsible-sounding soundbite is "Congress needs to re-evaluate their spending priorities", but what that translates into is "go find that money somewhere else; not my problem".

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Washington did engineering as a British officer.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

HgTx,

I came to the same conclusion of GWBs speach, sounded impressive but where is it coming from?

The tax rate needs to increase, just plain and simple. In the US you are paying some of the lowest taxes in the western world, and then spending a large chunk of that on the military, and then expecting the government to have the money to sort anything out.

That said, there are a number of areas where less should be spent including industry subsidies for low emplyment industries such as timber.

csd

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

csd72,
do not forget, that the other "western" countries use the taxes for health insurance, pensions and subsidized education (and making planes like Airbus, too...); in the USA we pay much more for those services from our own pockets. That's why the taxes are (perhaps, I did not check the statistics) lower.
There definitely is money for fixing/maintaining the infrastructure; it is about how the senat uses the money, this time I have to agree with GWB. If I were sure, that the extra tax will be really used just for that purpose, I'd support the idea. Where all the money collected on the toll roads go? As I can see, not to maintain those highways. The same would happen with the "fix-the-bridges" tax.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

I see your point gearguru,

The US has three departments involved in immigration whereas most countries have just one. For a theoretically minimalist federal government they sure have the red tape down to an art.

You are right about the health and pensions, these are a huge drain on most other economies.

csd

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Is healthcare really a drain?

If your populace are better cared for medically will they be more productive?  Less days lost to illness, work more efficiently when they are there because they are well, or even less deaths of productive people?

State pensions, due to the way they were set up & introduced could more obviously be seen as a drain.  You could always budget for say 5 years of retirement, you get to pick when you actually retire.  Then if you hit 5 years you lose your state pension.  If you aren't independently wealthy you either get a job or head to the knackers yard.

Sound reasonable?

You know what, everyone told me when I moved to the states that I'd be a lot better off but looking at my paycheck, by the time you include what I pay for medical about as much % ends up vanishing before I see it as it did in the UK.  Also being in California the supposed lower cost of living seems a bit of an a exaggeration.  And before you say it, at least with my local facilities the level of health care isn't massively better.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

If you want to compare tax rates you have to take a look at what you get in return for those taxes.

The US is alone in the western world as a major economy without a government health care system. For countries with a government sponsored health care system this is the largest single government expense.

Other different levels of services provided are not that large as a % of overall GDP.

Overall US tax rates are about 30% of GDP and another 15% is spent on health care.

Canada spends about 34% of GDP in taxes and gets health care included.

Tax rates also have to be adjusted for deficit spending (or in Canada’s case a governmental surplus).

You then have a choice of comparing tax (adjusted for health care and government deficit/surplus) on a dollar basis or as a % of GDP basis.

The attached table is based on data from nationmaster.com
It is not 100% as there is a public private split in health care in government health care countries and does not take into account deficit/surplus spending but it puts the discussion in the ball bark.

    as Percent of GDP    Dollar amounts
    taxes    Health care    Tax+- health    GDP    Tax    Health    tax +- health
Canada    35.8%    9.4%    26.4%    29,866    10,692    2,807    7,885    
US    29.6%    13.9%    43.5%    39,452    11,678    5,484    17,162    
UK    37.4%    7.5%    29.9%    35,421    13,247    2,657    10,591    
Japan    27.1%    7.8%    19.3%    36,285    9,833    2,830    7,003    
Germany    37.9%    10.8%    27.1%    32,929    12,480    3,556    8,924    
                                

So much for the myth that the US is a low tax country.

We are engineers lets base our discussions on some data, especially when this data is easily available.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

There is a logic error in the above table.

I subtracted health costs from all non US companies and added it to US numbers.

I should only have done one or the other.

Here is the revised numbers with health care costs added to US taxes and not considered in other countries numbers.

The US is still the most expensive both on a percentage basis and on a per capita basis.

Country    % of GDP    Per Capita
    Taxes    Health Care    Tax plus Health    GDP    Taxes    Health Care    Tax plus Health
Canada    36%    9%    36%          29,866           10,692             2,807           10,692
US    30%    14%    44%          39,452           11,678             5,484           17,162
UK    37%    8%    37%          35,421           13,247             2,657           13,247
Japan    27%    8%    27%          36,285             9,833             2,830             9,833
Germany    38%    11%    38%          32,929           12,480             3,556           12,480

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Interesting data.  It tells me that the USA pays too much for its Health Care.  maybe that's because it's all private?

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Yeah you have 2 systems.

Private healthcare, competition etc will force prices down, but, at the end of the day someone somewhere is making a profit from it so charge more than the bare minimum.  Of course due to the fact that many hospitals are registered charities and that the widespread price setting of insurance companies limits the real competition this is a simplification.

Public healthcare, government bureaucracies are notoriously inefficient and for some reason no one expects any different, so some of the money will be wasted on paper pushing, however, they are ‘not for profit’ so in theory you aren’t just padding someone’s bank balance.  The fact that many public healthcare systems outsource some services detracts from this and makes it again, a simplification.

Not sure either has a clear advantage but all in all, I think I was probably happier with the way it was in the UK but then again, I never had any major medical problems or got stuck on a waiting list for 18 months and lived in a part of the country with above average wealth and hence better health care, different circumstances may have changed my opinion.

But this is getting off topic, probably.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Somptinguy,

Healthcare is expensive in the US, some of my prescriptions cost three times as much as they do in Australia.

Add to that the large amount of people that are eating way too many hamburgers and it is not a surprise.

The japanese are too busy working to go to the doctor, so no surprise there.

I dont know how the US to UK comparison works as in the UK the Public Healthcare is free and therefore comes out of taxes.

csd

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Quote:

I dont know how the US to UK comparison works as in the UK the Public Healthcare is free and therefore comes out of taxes.

But the doctors, nurses and others still need to be paid.  The buildings need to be built and paid for.  The drugs cost the same.  So why all this costs 14% of USA GDP and only 8% of UK GDP is interesting, regardless of whether it's paid directly (i.e. privately or via insurance) or indirectly (i.e. through tax).  Unless of course USA doctors are all millionaires??

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Somptingguy,

But the question is regarding the fact that they add this up with the tax at the end, if it comes out of tax, how is it added to the tax to get a comparison? Is the 8% only private/ optional treatment, or is the 8% a proportion of the tax that is used to support health (in which case the 37 should really .

Either way the comparison does not stack up.

As for the OP. By my calculation, the US has had as many Actors as president as it has had Engineers! Have we sunk so low?

csd

csd

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

csd72 , from your last sentance you need to check out thread731-194341: Arrogant Engineers winky smile

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

US health care costs are higher for three  reasons, IMHO

1)    More health care available. More high tech equipment etc available for more elective procedures.
2)    Due to the legal system in the US with large lawsuits always a possibility. This increases costs by two mechanisms, increased insurance premiums force up costs and defensive medicine.( tests ordered for CYA reasons not medical reasons)
3)    Private for profit is more expensive than public not for profit. (Canada is always losing doctors, especially specialists to the US due to the much higher earnings for them there. Drugs are much cheaper in Canada than in the USA hence the many internet pharmacies delivering drugs mail order to US customers)

Did I mention that Canadians, Japanese, UK, and Germans all have a longer life expectancy  than Americans, more expensive is not necessarily better.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Or perhaps both the cost and the life expectancy are a symptom of too many pizzas and burgers?

Just a thought.

csd

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

If a majority of legislators can make pi equal to three, then engineers need to stay out of politics.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Rick hit a major nail on the head, we in the US have access to health care in small towns that the rest of the world would love to have in large urban areas. Many times, this equipment is not utilized to its fullest, but it is there if and when needed.

There was just a case of quads being born to parents living in Alberta I believe and they had to be born in the states because that was the closest place with the facilities.

And no matter what the politicians say, people do not get turned away from our hospitals that have acute health care needs, even our tiny little hospital in a town of 12,000 is awash with people with no health care, of which they spread their costs to those of us with insurance.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

patdaly, I live in a fairly out of the way part of California in the middle of the desert.  The local medical facilities do not have a particularly good reputation in most respects.  The hospital especially.  This is in a town of around 25000.

To get anywhere else with health care is a 1 hour 15 minute drive.

In the UK while I was further from the nearest hospital, 15mins maybe, I had at least 3 very good (at least one of them teaching) hospitals within about 30 -45 minutes.

Part of this is just the fact that the US is more spread out than most european countries however...

This is part of the reason why I actually rate the care I got in the UK slightly better than that I've got so far in the US.  Not everyones experience is the same but from what I've seen I think a lot of US citizens over rate their health care.  If you happen to have good healthcare from your employer and live somewhere with good facilities sure it's probably better.  For the rest of the population, I think they may be better in one of the countries with state health care.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Kenat, please make no mistake, I do not rate the quality of our health care that good, in fact, though we have a wonderful facility in this town of 12K ( we even have a 64 bit CT machine!), the doctors here have a difficult time reading a simple X-Ray. I have found that given a bit of time to research, I can usually diagnose myself with equal accuracy.

In terms of cost though, our "gotta have it right here, right now" mentality is adding huge costs to our system.

There has to be a better way, somewhere in between state run mediocrity and privately run excess.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

The Australian system isnt too bad, it is about halfway in between the two (UK and US) we have government subsidised doctors and public hospitals.

In the US I find that I am referred to a specialist for things that my Australian GP would just treat, therefore making the cost of the treatment three times as much in the US on that basis alone.

csd

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Patdaly maybe I slightly misunderstood your point, sorry.  In fact I think I agree.  In the UK (sounds like similar to AUS) your GP acts almost like triage and will treat most simple things themself.  In the US for anything remotely out of the ordinary you get sent to a specialist.  I realize some HMO act a little like this.

I'm sure sometimes this pays off but a lot of the time I can't help thinking it costs a lot of money for little increase in quality.

How about a tax on non re-constructive plastic surgery with the money going into state healthcare (or equivalent).

Also in law suits for medical mal-practice.  The compensatory damages go to the plaintiff, these should be off some kind of scale/formula.  Any punitive damages go again to state healthcare (or equivalent).

I know some states do have certain limits on the damages awarded but in some cases they seen high, which leads to higher doctor liability insurance, higher costs...

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Sorry, just realized I'm taking this thread off topic a little.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

In the olden days people made war for one mission, redistribution of wealth.  As governments came in we limited war and relied on taxes to redistubute wealth, when taht got to messy, we empwered lawyers to redidtrubitute wealth because ther is less blood shed than wars and less group finger pointing than governments.  In Canada the health programs suck because you just die before you get a hip replacement.  In the US you get a hip replaced as soon as it aches a little, not because you can no longer add value (oh, boy, wait till that bounces around, really, I mean would a new hip really really add to the good of society?).  

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Yes there are waiting lines for things like hip replacements in Canada.

However everyone can get one when necessary. What about the 45,000,000 people in the US with no health insurance? (Mainly the working poor with no benefits in their jobs)
My point was that the US is a high tax country once you adjust for the fact that it is also the only developed western country with no national health insurance plan, paid for out of the taxes.

It is by comparing raw tax rates without considering what you get in return for these taxes that perpetuates the myth that the USA is a low tax country.

As engineers we should be able to look beyond the raw data in coming to our conclusions, especially if we want to be leaders and influence the decision making in our societies.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

RDK, that number is bogus.

It includes many younger people ( such as I once was ) who have made the conscious decision to not be covered while young  to save money for other things. It also includes people who refuse to work for whatever reason, as well as god knows how many Illegals. The news media types like to hype this number, but the simple truth is not a single person in this country is turned away for emergency care from the Hospital, and we pay for it through increased Insurance costs.

Not to say there isn't a better way, but I just wish people would be honest when they describe a problem.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

No one is turned away... They are allowed to wait in the waiting room, a few days if more urgent cases arrive.  Heck, some are even allowed to die in the waiting room, such as the woman who was refused treatment earlier this year in California.  EMS wouldn't help, either.  Yep, darned good system.

Sorry, I had to get that out of my system.
Many who rely on emergency care really have no where else to go.  They are forced by the system to wait until a minor problem becomes an emergency.  It would be much more cost effective to treat them before it gets to this stage, but without insurance, they have to wait.
The system is broken.  I wish that I had a solution.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

ewh,
once when in SF, one strong, young man asked me for donation to homeless people. When I told him that I am an immigrant, (legal by the way) who pays for himself and his family by working, he sheepishly disappeared.
My family has never been without insurance in this country. Does it cost money? Yes. Should I ask for donations? Only in an emergency. By the way - why should the US taxpayers solve social problems of some neighboring countries?
Sorry, I also had to get that out of my system.   

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

gearguru,
I applaud you and your priorities, however this is a much larger issue than one just involving the homeless.
Insurance in this country is very expensive, to the point that it is considered a luxery by many.  Most of the people affected in my part (and probably most) of the country make well below what the average participant of this forum earns.  The type of low skill jobs available do not offer health insurance, and it becomes a choice between health insurance, food, and transportation.  Transportation is needed for employment, food is not an option, insurance is a wish.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

star ewh, Patdaly I can't fully agree with your points on healthcare.  gearguru, I'm in a similar situation to you but I don't assume that everyone that doesn't have healthcare is because they aren't trying.

My wife encounters these issues regularly as she is a social worker (not the enabling type, more the get off your a**, take a shower and get a job but I'll help arrange childcare type).

She has people in her case load who are working multiple jobs some while going to school, some with learning disabilites etc who can't get affordable health care for their children let alone themselves.  Yes there are schemes/programs, including the emergency room services, but they leave massive gaps in approaching anything like comprehensive healthcare.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Perhaps our Insurance rates might be much smaller if we all paid for our own? By that I mean, all those who are treated for "free" still cost the Hospital money. Where do you think they get that money? Yep, you guessed it, the 12 dollar aspirin!

The same thing essentially happens when we see drivers without insurance, the people who do, pay much more than they otherwise would have to ( uninsured motorist ).

I really hate to say it, but I don't see a way out until the system breaks totally down and there is no choice but for people to pay their own way again, and unfortunately, many will die before the systems re-balances itself.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

FYI, I have always been told that the US has a lower overall tax rate upon its working citizens as compared to western countries, but now here's some supporting evidence:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/0/1942482.xls

engphila

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

There are two ways to compare tax costs.

You can compare them on a percent of GDP (or wages) basis or in absolute dollar terms.

Whichever way you pick, you also have to look at what you are getting for this money and whether the country’s government is running a deficit or surplus.

From the data given above as a percent of wages the US is pretty close to Canada and the UK higher than Japan and much lower than France Germany and Italy. If you converted it to absolute dollar terms, the US with the higher wage rate would pay more dollars in taxes Canada and the UK and would close the gap between it and the other European countries.

All other countries have a national health care system that US citizens pay for in other ways (generally as part of the employment package in lieu of higher wages).

All countries except Canada are running government surpluses and in effect deferring additional taxes. The US has a higher military cost in its government spending (only by a couple % points and the military costs are much smaller than medical costs)

Iyts not how much you pay in taxes that matter, it is what you get for these taxes and how much you pay for the total bundle of services that you require that matters.

The post above proves my point, which is not the relative tax rates,     government deficits, health or military costs, but that we engineers who are fully capable of taking a lot of confusing data and making rational decisions based upon the disciplined analysis of this data in our professional lives somehow fail to apply the basics of engineering analytical discipline when we venture outside the profession. The post simply provides raw tax data which is not analyzed in any meaningful way.

If we cannot arrive at our political positions based on our rational analysis and interpretation of the data how can we ever make the correct conclusions and decisions that would allow us to become the leaders of our societies?

This is not to say that we may have different ways to analyze the data and reach diametrical opposite conclusions but we should be able to defend the assumptions made and the methods of arriving at rational decisions.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Please show me where, in the US constitution, the Federal Government can take my money and give it to someone else to pay for their _____________.  Fill in the blank with health care or any other thing that you could wish for...

RDK makes a good point about rational thought and data.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Rjeffery, it's in the preamble, first sentence.

"... . .promote the general Welfare..."

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

The preamble is NOT law.

The Constitution must specifically state what the Federal Government can and cannot do, hence the ratification of the 16th amendment that allowed the Federal Government to tax our income.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Section 8 - The powers of congress.  

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

define: "General Welfare".  Specifically the "General" part.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

"define: "General Welfare".  Specifically the "General" part. "

Supream courts been doing that for over 200 years.  I'm sticking to engineering.

 

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Then I'll help:

I submit to you that “general Welfare” is common defense, common law, preservation of the union, international trade and international trade.  Common in this case is defined as shared by all or applied to all.  These are powers enumerated within the constitution.  

Welfare is synonymous with prosperous.  The founding fathers did not use “welfare as a synonym for “Hand-outs from Uncle Sam”.

America was founded by people (men and women) that stood on their own two feet and took care of themselves and their family.  They were not against personal charitable giving but I believe that they would be shocked that income of Americans could (would) be confiscated to pay for an able bodied American to sit on their butt and not work.
Kenvlach’s question was why did engineers not step up and help steer the country into a more economical direction; a more logical more reasoned direction.  My rhetorical question was posed to try to direct the discussion back to the main thread and to move it to influence LOCAL government into doing the logical, reasoned actions that would make us (U.S.) more efficient and even less taxed (at the federal level).
Please understand I am not trying to be rude or political, just informative.  I am sorry if I have offended any one.

RE: Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility

Rjeffer
"I submit to you ...."
And I can submit to you that it is what it is and the Supream Court has agreed with that. It's a power that is in the constitution.
Did you know that student loans made by or guaranteed by the Federal government are classified as welfare?
I wonder how many of the forum members went schools or universities that never received any money from the feds, that never had professors that never recieved a federal research grant, etc. If you can find an engineer without some federal money in his/her education he's probable from another country. Student loan guarantees and Pell grants are a form of welfare we could do without.  We have to many engineers now.  Giving engineering students money is in the same category as giving it to the PWT in the trailer park.
The percentage of money that goes to "welfare" as it is commonly defined (fat women with two or three kids living in a trailer court etc. etc.) is very, very low.  

The question of why engineers don't do more is evident when you have seen a few in action. Since they are more educated and smarter they have the answers.  They also seem perplexed when people don't understand and accept their simple well though out solutions.  They don't seem to understand why people think they are arrogant.

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