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Lazy designers/drafters
16

Lazy designers/drafters

Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
I am not saying all designers or drafters are lazy, but for me it is like pulling teeth to get one of them to work. Of course I always get the project done in time, and in all honesty I generally expect more out of people than what they do themselves. I am just wondering how many other engineers out there have designers/drafters working for them and what they do/did to get them to work. I am thinking about going to my boss, but I think I should address the issue with this person first too. I guess this is half venting and half curiosity if other people go through this stuff too.

Stylz signing off

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

When you say "getting one of them to work", are you referring in general or getting them to work on your stuff? Is the designer/drafter assigned only to you? Do others think that this person is lazy or unmotivated?

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
CAD Administrator
SW '07 SP2.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I have experienced this for the past 20+ years.
A lot of drafters/designers (mostly drafters) are non-degreed and are generally lazy. More so the past 10 years. A lot of engineers do their own dwgs because of this reason, and other reasons.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

3
CAD trolls!  I despise them.  Fire them and hire ones that work.

Remind them frequently that they are paid to do a job, and you expect that job to be done.

Things you can do:
  • Be a good supervisor.  Keep tabs on workloads and priorities.
  • Be clear with your expectations.
  • Learn enough CAD so that you have a good feel for what a task requires.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

JsTyLz you are not alone.  I think you are seeing a difference in the attitude of the people.  As an engineer you expect work to be done efficiently and correctly.  In general mistakes are o.k. as long as they are learned from and not repeated.  Also, we tend to find our own answers to questions.  
Designers/drafters are a different breed.  A large chunk of them will screw everything up trying to impress you with how quickly they can get something done or will take forever because they are overly cautious about making any mistakes.  I have also found that a good chunk of them tend to not learn from their mistakes and don't really care about finding solutions to their problems.  Gotta love it when they will sit in front of their computer, doing absolutely nothing, for 45 minutes because they aren't sure about something they are doing.  They don't bother to try and find an answer or find you to ask a question.  They just wait for you to check-in on their progress.  I won't even get into consistency.  I always get blank stares when I remind them to be consistent.
For the most part they are designers/drafters, and not engineers, for a reason.  We just get the joy of dealing with it everyday as we try to stay productive.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

... and don't rely on them to incorporate GD&T on the dwgs. Everything will be +/- .005 !

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

3
Hey now!  Please don't paint us all with such a broad brush!

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

rofl
I say "a lot of them", not "all".
I was a drafter for a long time, but got a education and learnded things. ;)

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I try and not pigeon hole all of them.  I've currently got 2 out of 8 that are really picking things up and none of what I wrote above applies.  However, I've also been through 3 additional ones in the last year that fit right in to what I said above and did as TheTick suggested.  I just have to keep reminding myself that they can spend twice as long on something and it still costs less money.  I just need to always figure it will take them three times as long as it should.  

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Hi Stylz,

I am curious... are the drafters/designers that you are referring to working with AutoCAD or a 2D drafting tool or are they working with a solid modeller (e.g. SolidWorks, Pro/E, CATIA etc...)?

The reason I say this is because I find 2D drafting to be painfully boring (am glad I don't work with it), but I enjoy the 3D stuff.

cheers,

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
They are working with UG which is a solid modeling package.

I used to be a Design Engineer, but now I am a product engineer. Main difference being I am not involved with every aspect of the design as much as I used to be and also I do some but minimal amount of the modeling and none of the drafting. I check the drawings and keep asking questions they don't understand. Example, I asked why do you remove all of the revisions and place remodeled and redrawn. I hate that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to see every revision ever made on that part on one print. That is the idea behind revision blocks... I guess that is slightly off topic, but never the less relates to the laziness because I found out that all drawings are being put on a modified/updated/new title block. So instead of copying all of the old revisions the lazy... I mean they easy way to do it is to rely on our microfiche system to keep the records and not the print itself.

One way I have already started to help myself with this problem is by asking my boss for the same CAD package and computer they use. I can't wait to spin circles around this one particular designer especially, vengeance is sweet my friends!

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I do have to agree that of all of the designers that I have worked with, most are not as efficient as they should be.

3D CAD jockeys can be just as lazy as 2D.

Replacing revisions with "revised and redrawn" is permissable under ASME standards, if the revision history is a long one or the changes are substantial.  This is not always laziness.  It stems from being able to change board drawings only so many times before they become illegible.
I have only worked in one or two places where the change was described in the revision block.  The change control document is usually listed, instead.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Well,

When it comes to creating drawings on average I've found Engineers worse than Designers Drafters.

But maybe this is mainly due to where I'm currently working (just look at some of my posts on the GD&T forum).

At my last place in the UK, the non degreed "Design Engineers" they had when I started were highly competent and I had no problem having the word "Engineer" in their title.

A couple of the CAD Jockey temps we got were shocking and a couple of the new hires weren't as good as the old timers.

At my current employer...

The 2-3 Designers/Checkers in my department here don't have degrees but are good, the checker (before he was let go) was excellent (poster child for someone without degree being allowed to use the term engineer).

In fact they are a lot better than any of the Engineers here when it comes to drawing creation.

We also get a lot of interns doing drafting work as a big part of their placement and for the most part they are pretty good (at least the ones in our department, must be the supervision smile)

So I guess I have a problem saying lazy Designers/Drafters because given the chance Engineers seem just as bad.

Also look at training/qualification.  

A bunch of CAD courses do not a drafter/designer make.  I've posted before that CAD training typically teaches you what the CAD can do, not what you should do with the CAD.  I don't think any CAD training I've ever done emphasized adherence with standards or how to achieve this with.  

I don't know about modern Associated Degrees etc but the good designers/drafters I’ve worked with have been over 40 and the best of them had some kind of Engineering education such as an apprenticeship HNC/HND.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

agree with ewy on revised & redrawn.

While in your case it may be lazyness in general it isn't.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
Whay have revision block and grid system and not use it? I came a place that kept all changes on the print. This obviously can be changed if revised and redrawn from a hand drawing, but on an electronic I don't care if ASME says it is permissable, the changes should be written on both the print and the change control document. Aerospace might be differnet than automotive manufacturing, but the revision tell a great deal about the evolution of the part, where tolerances have been relaxed, when suppliers requested change, etc. Why not have that info on the print, if it gets cluttered, copy and put on a size larger print. (and be sure to write in the rev block that the drawing went from C to D size   8'>   hahaha)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

To me having all the detail on the drawing makes a messy drawing.

I prefer just a reference to the ECO (or whatever it's called).

In this case the ECO needs to have adequate detail and be sent out with new revisions of the drawing (this assumes you have controlled copies of drawings which most places don't seem to).

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
As for Engineers not being good at drafting I can agree with you, but in terms of modeling I will disagree...
But what I am trying to explain is that some of the modern day designers I work with want to be drafters/modelers, if that makes any sense. They don't want to design they want to be one dimensional in that sense. I expect a certain level of involvement in the design and a good knowledge of manufacturing practices before I would recommend someone for hire as a designer. Drafters of the old are extinct nowadays, or soon will be, perhaps I should have used obsolete (under ASME Y14.5 - 1994)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

"Whay have revision block and grid system and not use it?"
It IS still used with separate change documents.

It keeps thinks less cluttered, better organized and just plain easier to read if it refers to a separate change document.

Some might think of it as lazy for someone to not keep change records with their drawing prints.  poke

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
KENAT,
if you are refernecing the revision bubbles most companies use, I agree that all revisions would be a messy, messy drawing, but a description of the change in the rev block should be kept clean and with adequate space around it. As long as the dimensions and views are fully visible I don't care if some puts free hand marks and swirls all around the edge of the page, messy means nothing as long as the component is visible and the required number of views are used to effectively make/check the part. I guess thats my preference, I wish everyon thought like me... damn I was dreaming again.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

JsTyLz, then you've been fortunate with the Engineers you've worked with.

Models I see from engineers often have failed/unconstrained etc features, poor order of features, bear little resemblance to the dimension scheme on the drawing, changing one dimension makes the model fail... (need I go on)

I agree that a CAD Monkey who knows all the buttons on the CAD system but has no engineering background is of little use.  

While I haven't investigated it I have a suspicion it's because their training/education primarily dealt with CAD operation with very little drafting and almost no 'Fundamentals of Engineering' or equivalent practical experience.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

If the rev block think really bugs you then you need to consider what your company standards/procedures say.

If they just follow ASME then what they're doing isn't wrong.

If you have a line in your company standard that says "previous revs shall not be removed" then they are wrong.

You could always change the company policy/standard.

Of course, at the end of the day if you are supervising the drawing then unless it breaks some standard invoked by the company they should do what you say and follow your interpretation of the standard.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

2
JsTyLs
I have observed that the pay for CAD help has gone down over the last 5-10 years. Who gets excited over a $14 hour job?
Next who gets excited working for engineers who can't explain what they want?  Give a cad operator the information you want hom to work with on a drawn piece of your lunch bag and cry when they don't get it right. The second or third time they loose their enthusium. If they could really read minds they could get a job in Las Vegas.
Most cad operators get trained in how to draw,not how to design. When they start they are drafters, you have to train them to be designers.

And last people will perform to your expectations.  You don't have to tell them what those are, they will pick them up by observing your attitude and behaviour.  IF you expect crappy work and are always bitching and moaning guess what your gonna get.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
Thanks for agreeing.

As for engineers that don't know how to model, I should take that back. Some do and some don't... I guess on whole if you have no common "mechanical" sense, than desinging and dimensioning a part intuitively wouldn't even fire a single neuron in their head. Example... I used to get models, (same modeling program, same version) from a japanese sister company of ours where instead of reviewing the history tree, or whatever your program has that keeps the history, and finding the line that corresponded to the hole to be changed. they filled in the holw with one extrude and made another cut on another extrude. All the while they could have just modified the current hole.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

2
Remember that you are the only one who is perfect and it is everyone else who is incompetent and lazy. ;)

Geesh...this thread sounds like a bunch of old women at a church social.

Brian

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
BJC
obviously you are not an engineer, or you are on the union for drafters of the world... In today's world someone that is not proficient at anything besides what there job description details or what I have to birddog them about should get 14/hour or less. I've said it before that drafters are obsolete in todays world, but designers, people who use intuition, past experience, and general creativity to work with the numbers guys like me, are not. Listen, I used to model and draft everthing I designed, all the while checking my own drawings two and three times, because my previous boss had no technical background. Taking it upon myself to learn the most efficient way to model, dimension, and draft drawings was not my job, no one told me to do it, but it had to be done or the prints would remain the same as they had always been, as pre-school fingerpaintings that my predecessors had done.

When talking/explaining myself to the designers/drafters,
if they have a question ask, I am not a mind reader either. I didn't know I had to tell them which plane to extrude that boss from, or to revolve instead of multiple extrudes would probably be better for this or that part... some things are self evident.

The level that I have to explain to one designer in particular is just ridiculous. I always ask once I have explained the job to him if he understands, he responds with answers like, well... I suppose....
I'm like sorry to interupt your solitaire game dude, but you are paid to do my drawings, and modeling I don't have time for, now friggen do them. I don't you have the same coworkers as me or you would use this forum to vent about them instead defend riff-raff you have no idea about.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
waskwillywabbit,
So if I am sarcastic and poking fun at myself and then you interpret that as for real, in a sense doing the same thing, is that like a double negative?

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I can understand what you're feeling JsTyLz, in a way. I used to have to take the models and assemblies that engineers had created and fix them. I'd get assemblies that had so many meatballs in them it was easier to just rebuild the assembly rather trying to figure out what s/he'd done. I'd spend days, sometimes weeks, trying to make everything work, and look, like it was supposed to. The biggest frustration? When those engineers would get a hold of the stuff again...at least I had job security.
What's my point? Not all of us "CAD Jockeys" are idiots. Sometimes the idiots are on the other side of the table. Frustration can be a two-way street.

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
CAD Administrator
SW '07 SP2.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I think this is a general lack of work ethic and entitlement issues which effects all careers.

I currently work with a drafter that fits the above title of lazy drafter.  Although, I think he just takes advantage of the laid back work environment we enjoy working in.  He does shoddy work and the sad thing is he doesn't try to improve.

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

JsTyLZ
I r  an ngineer ( a dozen or PEs)with more experience than you are old I would bet.
What I was saying is that your technical skills are not near as important as your people skills.  You ain't gotta em you may as well do your own cad work and let someone else do the real engineering.  Drawing can keep you away from having to deal with people.
People doing as you expect was not original with me, it's been in the psych books for years.  
I would suggest reading "The Human Side of Enterprize".  
If you can't develope empathy and the people skills you'll wind up burried in a cube drawing your own widgets for the next 20 years.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I'll probably be banned for this, but I really beleive the situation goes both ways... I have worked with engineers who wait untill the last minute a job is due, then will unload fifty or so drawings and expects them to be done in two days, or they try to mark up 11x17 prints, and make the mark-ups look like a Rorschach Test instead of marking up "C" or "D" size.....

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

You can see we have all worked with the same problems.
These are some of the reasons a lot of the work is outsourced.
If people would become engineers because they love it, the quality of the work would get better. I have worked with too many that think they were getting into a field with making the big bucks. Then they are frustrated because they now have tuition to pay back for a mediocre job.
Some become drafters/designers, because they don't have the $$ to go to eng school, or don't want to be an engineer, but like the this field.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I agree it can go both ways, I'm sometimes on the receiving end.

However, out of interest, in a situation like this.  How far do you go trying to make a difference with self reflection, "people skills" and taking advantage of that Psych minor you did at college etc. before you finally determine that the Drafter/Designer (or dare I say it, Engineer) is the problem and disciplinary action should be considered?

As to the $14 hour job, there are plenty of people who would get relatively excited by that wage (its something like double minimum), though they may not always be the ones with the knowledge or skill to be great at the job.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Where I work at, us engineers do all the modeling, drafting, stress/thermal analysis, etc. We don't have anybody with a drafter/designer title too. I should also mention that we are extremely efficient, I remember three of us getting done ~120 dwgs in a week.
The company is not small, (~2000 employees) but I don't know why we don't have the drafting/designer system.    

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Don't get me started on CONTRACT drafters & designers. . .

One women we just hired spends at least 1 hour a day standing outside my cube speaking with her agency about her next assignment.

Also, I understand that our drafters are supposed to know how to CAD up what I give them, not interpret what I was thinking. However, I sketch out my stuff carefully with a straight edge and graph paper, not on the back of my lunch bag. And I assure you that my weld symbols are correct. Why can I not get back a carbon copy of what I provided in my hand sketch???? And why after 2-3 backchecks can some drafters STILL not get the weld symbols facing the right direction? All that's required is to take my sketch and check the print out of what he/she drafted BEFORE giving it back to me. All they do is draw, print, & return. . .

Sorry, I've been frustrated with one person in particular for a while. Many thanks to the excellent designers I work with daily who actually make my job easier. . .maybe their boss will give them more time to train some of our lousy drafters!

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I've noticed that this thread concerning incompetence contains poor spelling and grammar. Some sentences are unintelligible. Perhaps the ease of computer communication is corrupting engineers as well as drafters.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Quote:

One women we just hired spends at least 1 hour a day standing outside my cube speaking with her agency about her next assignment.
  I would send her to her next assignment asap

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I am not sure it is laziness just following life’s golden rule that everyone below you is a worthless moron who is only there to add to your daily frustrations and everyone above you is only there because they kiss butt or were not good enough to do the job you are currently doing and are only there to add to your daily frustrations.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I haven't seen a drafter that makes $14/hr in 5 years now.  My low level guys make twice that much.  Maybe this is your problem.  Your not exactly attracting the top talent pool with that.  Of couse I am in Houston, don't know what it is like in your area.

Zuccus

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
Yesterday when I started this post I definitely was complaining about designers/drafters in general. But as I look back at what I was thinking about it was definitely about one designer I have worked with. I have worked with other designers that have the less years of experience than this lazy individual, but nonetheless had an opinion and would like it when I left some things open ended. This individual needs everything spoon fed and he acts like its an inconvenience to interupt his solitaire game to do some work.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

zuccas,

I think it is your industry and your locale that causes your drafters to make that much.

I work in the building systems design arena (plumbing, HVAC, etc.) and our senior engineers only make ~$29 an hour.  Now that may be low compared with your industry but it is pretty normal for my field.  Our designers start at about $14 an hour - drafters make less.  

But all our drafters are supposed to be learning to become designers.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Is this designer as big as a house and twice as smart?  Does his name rhyme with "Ragwell"?

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

"Your not exactly attracting the top talent pool with that."

I believe that money attracts everyone, not just the good workers.  How simple life would be if we could measure someone's competence by their paycheck. Not all unworthy people get weeded out. Some get promoted or become leaders.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

PEDARRIN2,

It is my industry and location, but let me ask you this?  If the good guys in your industry making $14/hr are seeing guys in my industry making twice that much, where do you think they are going to end up sooner or later.

Houston's oil & gas, petrochem, and industrial markets are booming so big right now it is tough to hire good people for a reasonable rate.

In reality I am in a parallel market to the HVAC industry and I am having to compete with the big oil companies for desingers and drafters.  I try to only hire good talent.  Bad talent doesn't last long with me.

This may open up a whole can of worms or maybe another thread, but here it is anyways.

Our good designers get paid more than any of our engineers and let me tell you why.
For our business, they are worth more.

Zuccus

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Different industries have different terminology/definitions for "Designer". A designer can be at a draftsman level at one company, then a engineer's level at another.
I know designers that fully capable of doing an engineer's job, but don't want the position for various reasons.
I know draftsmen that have been doing drafting for 30+ years. They are the best at what they do, but can't use CAD or do some engineering work at all.
Most of drafters/designers that I have seen that fit the "lazy" category, fall within the late 20'- mid 30's age group.
They are usually the ones that have no motivation to succeed. They learn the trade for a few years, want the better pay, get frustrated, depressed, then give up.
This is why some companies have dropped drafter/designer positions and given the work to engineer's or outsourced the work.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

In the aerospace industry, for $14/hr, you are going to be looking to fill positions for a looong time, or are going to have to settle for people that can't really cut it.  With contract rates at $40/hr plus (mostly plus), it is no surprise that good talent is so hard to find for so little money.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

In Houston, $25.00/hr was pretty much the minimum for a Unigraphics drafter in the oil industry five years ago.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

You know, I just remembered a problem I had with one mediocre designer/draftsman.

I already had a CAD drawing of the item.

I just wanted him to copy it, give it a new number change some of the marking to match the new part number and description and remove some marking that said “not for flight” that was about it.

I figured an hour, 2 at most as he wasn’t very familiar with our CAD package yet.

After he’d had it a couple of days I went over and asked if it was done.  He said nearly.

Instead of making the changes simply he’d decided to put all the notes and marking in an embedded Word file, change the orientation of the main view 90 degrees, which meant the marking was in the wrong place, and various other steps to screw up the drawing.

This wasn’t exactly laziness as it took effort to do all that work!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
Maybe he was too lazy, because he would rather waste time on doing a project his way. That simple 2 hour should have been done, and then he would have to do more work... but if he stayed on that project, no more work.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters


SO ...the designers/and drafters are lazy huh!?? ...Could it be they are tired of redoing the same thing over and over again because the engineers can't think something through and have to "see it" on paper before they can make a decision? I'm an old board guy, had an engineer confess to me that he doesn't think things through like he use to, because AutoCAD makes it so easy for the designer/draftsman to "play" with the dwg.s! He use to feel guilty when he called for changes in the board days because it took more of an effort.
 However, with the "modern" day teaching curriculum all you need to do is learn a "AutoCAD or 3D program" and you’re a draftsman or a designer!!! ...Just ask the computer program salesmen!!

 

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Wow, JsTyLz you sound like a real piece of work. I hope you can find somebody at work to eat lunch with you. Of course, unless you have prepared your own lunch it probably wasn't done right either.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Just some thoughs.
20 % of your people take 80% of your time.  You can get rid of the 20 % and another 20% will majically appear to take their place.

If a JsTyLz came to me bitching about someone I automatically put him on the usual suspects list.  In my experience he's very likely to be part of the problem. You have to look cases like this over very clsoely.  If good designers are harder to get than good engineers the one to go may not be the designer person.  I am not even sure India has a rigid case system any more, I know we don't.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
I think too many people are reading the title and not the posts. I confessed that I started the thread as a general statement, but in actuality I was talking about one person. I was wondering how other people dealt with the same situation. When I posted designer/drafter, I was unsure what "your" company titled them as.

Anyways... it truly isn't only about designers but about unmotivated people who poison the workplace. The person in my case happened to be a designer/drafter, bottom line. Don't read into it too much, or assume.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

JsTyLz, I thought you'd clarified yourself too.  

I had objections to singling out designers and drafters but realized you were basically venting/using them as an example.

Seems from some of the later posts that people think the person identifying the problem is always the problem.  Is that really true?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Have you ever had to spend more than 10 minuites explaining that the drawing is in metric instead of inches and should just scale it or deal with it. Use that 25.4 thing.
I have seen this take much explanation to get through.
Maybe they are pulling my leg, but I can't be sure.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Geographical location has a lot to do with what you get paid, whether you are lazy or not.

Most of the people in my area that make only $14/hr would not go elsewhere to make twice that much merely because they would have to move to where the $$$+ jobs are.  

The companies will pay what the area and the industry will support.  If you are in an area that pays $28/hr for a designer - lazy or not, then you better pay that.  If you pay that much in an area that typically only pays $14/hr, you will not be in business for long.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

2
Whats funny is that there is most likely a post on a cad board somewhere with the title Lazy engineers ;)

It goes both ways for sure.  I worked my way up from drafter to senior engineer (after getting my degree).  I got my degree so I could be lazy like the rest of the engineers ;)

Engineers think differently than designers/drafters and they defintiely don't speak the same langauge.

It used to drive me up a wall when an engineer would change something back and forth and everytime he wants a new drawing signed and dated.  

Or an engineer trying to think out loud by using my drawings as a way of working out his issues.

Or Incompetent engineers trying to disregard other engineers suggestions because they are 'smarter' and I have to redo drawings on a moments notice.  

My favorite is when an engineer would mark up a drawing and I would change it only to have him ask me why I changed the print!  Nice when I show them the drawing they marked up.

I used to have engineers sit next to me and tell me what they wanted me to draw on the CAD. They would tell me what commands to use.  Just remember, there is a good chance the Drafter has been doing cad longer then you have been an engineer.

Also, remember what another poster mentioned.  He makes 14 bucks an hour (or even 8 as an intern).  He doesn't have to worry about deadlines or finding another job since he could make the same money anywhere.  They have nothing to lose.

For every lazy cad operator I bet I could find a lazy engineer (if only the ratio of engineers to cad operators wasn't so different!)

I have noticed that most engineers have a superiority complex but they tend to use it at the wrong time.  If you just start at a compnay that designs products you are not familiar with most likely the drafters know more about the product design then you do.

As far as I am concerned engineers and drafters are two different departments whether they work for you or not.  

Drafters can work in multiple industries quite easily since, to keep it simple, a line is a line.  So, however unlikely it may seem, they might actually know more then you about a particular subject!

Sorry for the rant but working my way up from the gutters I have lived both sides.  

Advice:

Get them involved with the project.  Don't just hand them marked up prints.  Ask for their input on a design (even if you don't use it or could care less!).

Definitely learn cad as a way of providing them with a basis to start from so your idea is clear.

They are probably not passionate about their work.  Making the same changes over and over would drive anyone up the wall.  Try to understand the standards they are using.  it may be the drafting supervisor causing problems and not the drafter.

Teach them what you know.  Don't just tell them.  they might be more willing and able to help and feel more useful.  

cksh.  Former cad minion.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Good post, cksh.
One of my least favorite occurrences is when an engineer brings his "hot" changes to you 15 minutes before you were going to leave, even though he had been aware of them all day.  It almost seems like they purposely schedule it that way, it happens so often.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

My favourite version is that we have an ECO board (or should that be bored) every Wednesday afternoon.

You can guarantee that Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning my design services department will have an influx of drawing changes to make/check.

Or I work away from home and usually work longer Mon-Fri and leave mid afternoon Thursday.

The amount of times someone will want drawing change/check shortly before I leave is amazing.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Turn it into reality television.

If an engineer and a draftsman cant work together then lock them in a room until they learn to work together (or only one survives - whichever comes first).

csd

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Lock them together in a machine shop where nobody can hear them!

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Dangerous thing to do ctopher, won't be long before one of them decides that they know everything about the machine shop and then try to run everything in there as well........

I know that this is probably a stupid question but do you guys in the States have slightly different meanings to your job titles. The reason I ask, is that I am a Component System and Product Design Engineer (ie Designer for short) and you seem to be using designer/draughter as almost the same title. Any explanations would be nice

Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Kevin,
That was one of my responses above.
Yes, there are different meanings, depending on type of company and geographical locations.
I have worked with designers with degrees that are comparable to engineers with degrees at other locations. It varies. For the most part, a draftsman or designer is at a lower pay scale than a engineer.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Here in the states, the common hierarchy used to be Detailer, Drafter, Designer, Engineer.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

... and don't forget checker bigsmile

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Checker?  What's that? wink

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

(OP)
In the states is goes like this.

1. Drafter/ CAD operator - No college necessary

2. Designer - Industrial and Manufacturing Degree (basically an engineering degree with no calculus and more focus on manufacturing)

(now these next two might be switched around in some companies, but generally...)

3. Design Engineer (or just Mechanical Engineer) - Bachelor's degree, or 10++ years of experience for some companies

4. Product Engineer - Master's or more often Bachelor's with a few years of industry specific experience. The difference between design and product engineer is the design engineer would micromanage the details of a design while a product engineer would handle more projects, but less of the details.

5. Project Engineer - Generally cannot reach this level without being a product or design engineer first. This engineer would have his own projects of middle to high complexity, and manage other engineers/designers, but not have any direct reports.

6. Senior Engineer - Complex projects with the application of unique, diverse technical knowledge and engineering principles

Then it goies on as Principal, Lead, Chief, Staff, Executive. In no particular order.


RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Relevant experience is also very often substituted for a degree for designers in the states.  College is not always a necessity.
Also, Designer/CAD operator can be added to the above list.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

People concerned with their job titles don't do any work anyway. ;)

Brian

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

Ouch ewh that hurt! I'm a checker, at least I’m doing the job just don’t have the qualifications, experience or, interestingly enough, the pay.

Kevin, From general perception of what I've seen so far.

Drafter/Designer are often used interchangeably.  Generally implies no Bachelors, sometimes no formal engineering type education, just maybe CAD or drafting classes.

While it varies, to use the title Engineer usually implies you have at least a bachelors in Engineering.  In some industries you have to pretty much be PE (CEng to you Kevin) to use the title Engineer.

From what I’ve seen Engineers in the US have more of a superiority complex than in the UK.  Designers/Drafters have more of an inferiority complex.

Back in the UK at my place whoever could do the job did it, if you didn’t know how you learned.  In the US it seems at least some people will say “I’m only a designer I can’t do that” or “I’m an Engineer I’m not going to do that”.

Plus side I have a bachelors, so get to be an Engineer, the others in my department don’t and they treat me like I’m better than them sometimes.  Actually I’m not sure it’s a ‘Plus’, weird when people older than you , with more relevant experience etc defer to your judgment!

Please note, these observations are based on limited data points!


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

KENAT,
Of course that was tongue-in-cheek.  It was my snide way of recognizing that industry doesn't place the value on checkers that they deserve.

RE: Lazy designers/drafters

I got ya, just forgot to put the smiley.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

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