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Quiting and working for competition, ethical?
5

Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

(OP)
Hi fellas!!
 Ok here is the deal, I'm to the point in which I'm considering moving to a different LOCAL company doing the same engineering design work I do at my actual company. I am thankful to my current boss because 4 years ago he gave me my first engineering job and taught me lots of things that I am able to use and work professionally at any place.
 As of yesterday I received a phone call, and it seems that the other company (which I really like) will offer me the same job, but with much better work conditions (i.e. attend seminars, classes, better benefits, etc., and perhaps a much better salary).
 The point is, that every now and then my current boss and the new boss do business together and of course know each other.
 I am letting the 2-bosses deal between them, but I am just wondering how will I look professionally if I leave to the new company. Of course, I don't have access to any "secret" company stuff, and if I have, I know that I must keep my mouth shout.
 Also, if the new company offer is ok with me, how do you recommend approaching my current boss even if he tries to match the new company's offer? How to tell my current boss I am going with the competition anyways?

 Your comments will be of helps, thanks fellas!!

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

2
You are an employee.  You are not property.  Go where you please.

Do not be cowed by anything that resembles a non-compete clause in your employment agreement.  It does not apply to you and is not enforceable.  Multiple court rulings have already been made in your favor.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

well, if I couldn't work for my competitors I'd have been out work after my first job.  It's pretty much expected you will work for a competitor since that's where your knowledge lies - in the field you work in.

As you said, once you don't take secrets etc, then there's no conflict.  It will be expected that when you join the new company you will work on that company's projects etc.  

When you resign, your boss will be one of two ways, mature about it, or a royal PITA.  Hope it's the former.  And read a few websites about how to prepare a resignation letter etc.  Whatever you do, be 110% professional about leaving!

As for your boss/company making a counter offer, it's likely. Think very long and very hard about even considering it.  It's easy to have rose coloured glasses when you look back but typically, once you are ready to leave, it's rarely a good choice to reverse that decision (even with loads of money).

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Why do you have to tell the existing company where you are going?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

There is a thread on resignation letters in Eng-Tips. You should look for that thread and read it.

Hand your resignation in to your boss. Then pack up and get ready to leave when he asks you to.

If he asks you to stay, say you appreciate the offer, but you are still leaving.

Going to "work" for the competitor, as an employee is perfectly legal, ethical, moral, etc. As you said, all the company stuff and secrets stay behind.

Good luck at the new job.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Never accept the "we will offer you more to stay" line.

Never burn the bridge, because you may just well end up working back at the same place for more money in a few years, with a much broader experience range.

If your current boss cannot handle your resignation, then he was not boss material anyway.

My guess is he will understand and offer his congratulations, as well as an offer to call him if you decide to leave company X in the future.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

(OP)
Thanks all for your responses, I guess I'm here to read your comments and recommendations so I don't make a mistake. Well, it seems that I can take this job as soon as I want, it just a matter of aceppting and giving my 2-weeks notice.
 I haven't taken this year's vacation, questions: shall I go ahead and then quit, or just don't even mention it and leave?
thanks

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I think that the first thing you should do is decide this:

Do I just want to go to the other firm or do I want to offer my current employer an opportunity to match the offer (both financially and work condition-wise)

This is important.  You should carefully analyze whether you KNOW whether your current employment conditions are unacceptable or will not change.  If you don't know that for sure, then perhaps at least opening the door to a counter offer is feasible.  But only do this if you feel there is a chance that your current employer will work with you honestly on this.

Once you have decided the first question, the rest will fall into place.  Your resignation will either be - "Thanks for the work over the years, I'm quitting, good-bye."

OR

"I have an offer, I haven't decided anything yet so you have an opportunity to respond to it".

I believe that there are times when you should offer your current employer a chance to respond to employee market conditions.  It is sometimes very tough as an employer to know EXACTLY what someone should be paid (relative to skills and the market) and to know how their work conditions and job benefits match up with other firms.  

And sometimes the new job, its higher offer, and apparent work conditions are very pie-in-the-sky compared to the eventual reality.  Some firms offer a lot up front just to get you in the door and then hold back on salary adjustments over the next several years to catch you back down with others in the firm.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

That's a hard one

1.  They do owe the two weeks vacation.

2.  But taking it and then coming back and quitting the next day seems kind of "rotten".  Although I have had employees do just that !!

IMHO - that is a bit of a "bridge burner"... but your call.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

There's nothing unethical about it.  Grass is always greener on the otherside and once you get there you realize it is not as green as you thought.  Hopefully it is better than the side you were on.

Just tell your boss straight.  You might get a firm handshake with a congratulations, cursing or somewhere in between.  Just be fair to the guy and tell him "about" the offer but not the offer itself.  Find out what he can do for you without hearing the offer at hand, then make your decision.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

(OP)
Hi JAE!! Thanks for your comment:
"You should carefully analyze whether you KNOW whether your current employment conditions are unacceptable or will not change.  If you don't know that for sure, then perhaps at least opening the door to a counter offer is feasible.  But only do this if you feel there is a chance that your current employer will work with you honestly on this
 Well I am not here to talk about my boss(at least not in here, jaja) but anyways, I thing there is no "chance my current employer will work with me honestly on this". A current co-worker accepted his counter offer at one time, and yes he/she got a salary increase, but the work environment didn't change at all.
 And yes, all of us need and like to get a good salary, and of course this might influence in my decision, but there are some other important factors such as work satisfaction, you know, such as the feeling of professional grow and getting the satisfaction you have accomplished something at the end of the day.
 Thanks for your advice, and
  MiketheEngineer thank you also, that is why I asked about my vacations, I guess I'll just leave, and maybe ask before hand my new employer to allow me 2 to 3 vacation weeks (non paid of course)(i.e I have a trip to Europe already scheduled at the end of this year)

Well, thanks to ALL!!

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

13city,

Assuming you are in the US, you are entitled by law to receive your vacation, whether in the form of days off or payment for those days, if vacation pay is a normal part of your compensation package. It's sometimes referred to as the 'Golden  Bear Rule' for the original case law.

If you take more days off than you have earned, it should be deducted from your last check.  If you haven't taken enough and have unused vacation days coming, you should receive payment for those unused days/hours.

Some employers do not like for employees to take more 'vacation' that they have earned, even if it is unpaid, since it affects the balance of billable time to unbillable benefits (sick days, holidays and vacation time).  It may also affect the standard definition of a full-time employee and therefore affect you benefit entitlement.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Work satisfaction is important.  But when you reach a certain level in your career, not just in engineering but any career, there is very little "professional" growth.

Also, that sense of accomplishment becomes not as important as long as the job pays the bills and you have most of the toys you need.

A good job is where you don't feel like you are underpaid, the company allows you much flexibility so you can perform your duties, and you don't hate going there every morning.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

(OP)
Hi whyun!, thanks for your advice, but that is why I previously said: "And yes, all of us need and like to get a good salary.." Salary is an incentive but, as the credit card commercial says "there are things money can't buy".
With all respects, I disagree with your comment [i]"that sense of accomplishment becomes not as important as long as the job pays the bills and you have most of the toys you need.[i/]...Not in my case

regards

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Good, bad, or whatever, just know that 99% of the employers will lay you off without a moments notice.  You're just handed your pink slip and that's it.  No two weeks notice, no nothing.  The MBA weasels will tell you that is how it has to be done, blah, blah, blah.

But watch'em squeal if you do the same to them.  Supposedly that is "unprofessional".  Can anyone say double-standard?

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I'd recommend not taking vacation within a month of quitting.  It's one of those actions that's not explicitly wrong but leaves a bad mark on your character.
As for leaving, also remember that when you give your 2 weeks notice, if the employer asks you to leave immediately, you have to get paid those 2 weeks as well.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I think the better approach is to first go in to your current employer, and ask about pay, training, a "better environment", and these other things that the other company is "promising" you, without mentioning the other company's offers.  If these things are important to you, enough that you'd quit, have you made this known to your present employer?  Depending on your present employer's answers, you can give notice on the spot, or stay where you are with no hard feelings and an improved position.  Telling him up front that he has to match or beat the other guy's "bid" smells bad to me, and you essentially have put one foot out the door at that point.  

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I disagree with RossABQ.  In all cases an employee should assume that the present employer is providing the best possible salary/benefit package and that is what other potential employers should have to better.  If you let them pay you more to stay you are just encouraging them to underpay in the future.  The pay and benefits should include not only what you are presently worth to the company but also an "insurance" premium against the cost of replacing you.  If your employer isn't taking care of you to that standard you should have no compunction against walking.  If you start bargaining you'll always wonder what else got left on the table and you'll be known as a trouble maker when it comes time to make reductions in staff.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Simply write a list of the advantages of going to the new job compared to the disadvantages of staying with the old. This is not a trivial task and you should think long and carefully about it. This will make your decision so much easier.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Hi l3city,

Here is an idea, if you choose you can give your employer 4 weeks notice. Work the first 2 weeks, then go on vacation the 2 last weeks. If you write this in your resignation letter, they will have to pay you for the last 2 weeks.

Also, when you negotiate you can ask your potential new employer to start you off with 3 weeks vacation, so you get paid while you are in Europe. And ask that in writing. If they don't want to do that, well then maybe the grass is not that green on the other side of the fence.

good luck,

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I always handed in my 2 week notice, but listed my final day as the 2 weeks, plus whatever vacation time I had accrued, and the note that my final work day will be XXX, the remaining time being vacation accrued in year XXXX.

I don't know how it works now, but at least in the last state I quit in, they were only obligated to pay you for the last weeks worked if you handed in your resignation in writing, assuming they let you go early.

And yes, you should be able to negotiate XX vacation time, with the first years vacation scheduled at YYY date. GET IT IN WRITING!

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

An advantage to doing as patdaly says, is that your medical coverage (assuming you have it) will last as long as your official employement, which is good in case your new benefits take a month to kick in.
If the new company wants you badly enough, they will wait the extra week or two for you to start.  It'll take them that long to interview and offer to someone else anyway.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I went through exactly what you are proposing about a year ago. Although I told the new potential employer that I wanted to talk with my employer before I accepted. I was 90% sure that I was going to except the new position. At that time the company I was working for had just hired a new operations manager that I reported directly to. To make a long story short he was a non engineer telling me I had to do things that I didn’t agree with, I also believed there could be some ethical concerns. With that said I really liked my position up and until the new operations manager. Well anyway I went in and talked to the company president and shared with him my issues, I also let him know that I had another job offer that I was seriously considering. He asked me to think about what it would take to keep me. I let the president of the company know the issues that I was having with the operations manager and shared with him what it would take to match the salary and insurance offer. The president of the company offered this:

They matched salary and benefits and even discussed future salary increases.
An additional week of vacation
Additional training
More freedom to come and go providing my work was finished.
And the most important he addressed the operations and included me in the discussion (he gave him a real lashing). I now report directly to the president of the company.

I decided to stay and its been about year since all of that took place. I seriously doubt all outcomes will be like this but it turned out great for me.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

fasboater - yes - that is why earlier I said:

"...if you feel there is a chance that your current employer will work with you honestly on this."...then reserve your adamant resignation and allow your current employer to better understand the market that they must deal with.

I'm firmly convinced that most employers struggle to know, understand or appreciate the true market that there is for engineers out there.

The difference is whether your employer has the disposition to respond well to their newly acquired market information or whether they will be bull-headed and try to keep you with the least amount of effort, money or response.

Which type of employer you have is something each of us have to analyze before making the decision whether to just leave or whether to allow the two firms to compete for you.


RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

What I think is unethical is when you give 2 weeks notice and take that off as leave.

If you do not want to burn bridges, you should give your employer a fair go and spend the two weeks making sure that all your projects are either finished off or handed over to someone else in a satisfactory manner.

csd

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?



Quote (SylvestreW ):

As for leaving, also remember that when you give your 2 weeks notice, if the employer asks you to leave immediately, you have to get paid those 2 weeks as well.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Sorry,  hit the submit on the above post instead of edit.

But basically I wanted to point out that in the US this is generally not true. Thats like saying if I give 6 months notice and they ask me to leave after 1 month then they have to pay me 5 months pay.  In fact,  if you give your notice and they ask you to leave that same day it's in the employer's discretion how much will ne paid.  If you don't have a contract that addresses this, you could be paid zip.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Hi GTstartup,

I think the problem is that if they ask someone to leave that very day (i.e. before the date in the resignation letter), then that person is technically being "laid off" and they may have to pay them even more than the 2 weeks (depending on how long one worked there, and depending if one was a full time employee an dnot a contractor).

It might be in the companies best interest to accept one's resignation and just pay the employee for the 2 weeks.

cheers,

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Hi Josephv

I don't know where you are located,  but in the US you can be given 5 minutes notice and "laid off" with no compensation.  No reason is necessary.  There are some exceptions to this, i.e if you have a contract, are in  a Union etc.  In general, (some States may differ) there is no law that says that laid off workers must receive severance pay.  There is a law that requires unemployment compensation.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Thank you for clarifying this GTstartup, I did not know this.

What I wrote applies to Canada. Obviously I am not familiar with US laws, my mistake.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

josephv,

I believe that the laws in Canada are also "at will employment". This means that legally, a company can lay you off whenever they do, and you are entitled to only that compensation that is either in your contract (which typically provide for 2 weeks notice), or is statutory (ie. vacation pay, etc.).

You should consult with a lawyer friend, if you have one, or your HR department - just to double check that I am correct.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

The US does (did?) have a big exception, which is the case of mass terminations that are typical of plant shutdowns.  Under those conditions, the layoff notice is a mandatory 6 months, to allow time for retraining and interviewing, etc.

This only applies to relatively large companies.  My former company played it even better than the book at the time.  They gave EVERYONE 6 months notice, just to make sure they didn't get sued by some disgruntled soul.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?



What do you go to work for?

Answer - pay the rent/mortgage, feed that family, etc etc.

No problem working for competitor - that's life.

My only regret was that when I was approached to work for a competitor, when asked what I would move for I said 25% more than I was earning and they said "fine" without batting an eyelid! (should have said more!)


Cheers


Harry

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Hello Ashereng,

By law companies are required to give a certain termination notice in Ontario, this notice increases for every year of employment. If the employee is not given notice, then the company has to pay the employee a lump sum equal to the employees wages during the notice period. For example someone who has worked for a company 8 years or more either gets either 8 weeks notice or 8 an week termination pay without notice.

Typically, in Ontario employees don't get notice but do get the termination pay. The reasoning being that it would be negative for both the employee and employer to have a "lame duck" situation.

On top of this there is "severance pay", which I will not go over but is discussed in this link:

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/factsheets/fs_termination.html

Frankly, I am a bit surprised the States don't have something similar. But then again, it shows how little I know.

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

josephv,

I didn't know that. Interesting.

Does this differ from provinces to provinces?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

(OP)
Guys, thanks all for your responses, I am leaving...no matter what comes in, is time for me to "fly" to some place different...thank you all I'll keep in touch with this great forum!!! smile

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

There is some variation between the provinces.

In Manitoba you can be terminated without notice or reason in the first six months, with two weeks and no reason in the second six months and after one year only for cause (misbehavior or lack of work) If for cause no notice required if layoff then two weeks required.

(or at least it was that way last time I investigated it several years ago)

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

I read the following somewhere recently:

"If you enjoy what you do (I would also assume that means where you are doing it) then you will never have to work a day in your life."

I have been very fortunate and only changed jobs one time while in the consulting business.  When I decided to give my two week notice, my former employer made a counter-offer.  I refused it.  He then asked me to stay an extra week to finish a few things I was in the middle of.

To this day, I believe if I needed a job, all I would have to do is call him an start to work tomorrow.

Quote:

I don't know much about statistics, but I do know that if something has a 50-50 chance of going wrong, 9 times out of 10 it will.  Author unknown

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

Enjoy your new job....

Ken

Ken
KE5DFR

RE: Quiting and working for competition, ethical?

In China, after Chinese New Year, it is not uncommon to have a 30% of labour force wuitting to go to another job. They wait for hte double pay, and then resign.

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