Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
(OP)
As people touched on in their responses to the male:female make-up of engineering departments, the men significantly outnumber the females. Many noted that even women who start in engineering often move to other business areas.
Here's my question: So what? What's so superior about engineering compared to other career choices women or men may make? Why should we care that women (or men) don't want to be engineers?
I think we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession. We tell ourselves that kids who transfer to the college of business just couldn't hack engineering. Is it possible that they realized they could make more money doing something else they enjoyed more? I'm as anti-BA in Psychology as any engineer, and really hate to read those people's posts on Monster.com, whining that they're unemployed. However, if you are smart enough to be an engineer, there are a lot of financially lucrative jobs that you could do.
So, why SHOULD we become & stay engineers?
Here's my question: So what? What's so superior about engineering compared to other career choices women or men may make? Why should we care that women (or men) don't want to be engineers?
I think we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession. We tell ourselves that kids who transfer to the college of business just couldn't hack engineering. Is it possible that they realized they could make more money doing something else they enjoyed more? I'm as anti-BA in Psychology as any engineer, and really hate to read those people's posts on Monster.com, whining that they're unemployed. However, if you are smart enough to be an engineer, there are a lot of financially lucrative jobs that you could do.
So, why SHOULD we become & stay engineers?





RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Three things for a good career (roughly in order in my mind):
- Enjoyment
- Reward
- Respect
When I was in the graduate job market there were plenty of the Reward & Respect jobs for people with engineering qualifications. Not many scored on the enjoyment though for me. But everyone is different.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I agree with your sentiments. With regards to your question of "So what?", I think the answer is that "we engineers tend to have a bit of a superiority complex about our profession.". I would also like to point out that this sentiment is not just engineers. I think every profession has a bit of the "superiority complex". Because we think we are the best, it may be that we are slighted somehow when someone (especially anothe engineer) forsake our profession for another.
Another reason may be that deep down, we may be a bit insecure, with the tought "Maybe engineering isn't as good as we've been led to believe?".
Speaking for myself, I think I should stay an engineer because I like the work for the most part, and more importantly, I think I am good at it (there is that superiority thing again) and I think that I can make a good living at it.
The other question not asked is "Why should SOMEONE ELSE become and stay an engineer?" My answer is that they should decide based on their own interests and convictions. Engineering is a profession, like many others. They are all valuable and rewarding.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
As to what ratio of men to women, who cares (well OK, at Uni a few more girls on the course would have had advantages
One thing that does annoy me. A lot of people on my Aerospace Engineering course at uni had no real interest in Aerospace Engineering or even engineering at all. They either took it 'cause they were good at Math/Physics and wanted a challenge (Aero was purported to be the most difficult Engineering) or because it was looked on favorably by software and consultancy firms (e.g. while they normally required a 1st (A) or at least 2:1 (B) from most courses they’d take a 2:2 [B- or C, not quite sure] from aero).
This made if real difficult for someone like me who was smart but not genius level but really interested in aviation/engineering to 1. get on the course 2. stay on the course/get good grades in comparison with average.
Bear in mind this was UK where most of the costs were paid by the government, they were paying for people to learn engineering who had no interest in it.
Sorry, rant over.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
A look through other threads and other websites will tell you that yes, in fact, some prejudices and mistreatment do still exist. This may not tell the full story of the disproportion but it is part of it, which is why disproportion still bears looking at.
But since there are plenty of other threads and other websites discussing this matter, there's no need to get into it right here.
Hg
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RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Now, to answer the question, "So, why SHOULD we become & stay engineers?"
A wise person once wrote in Eng-Tips, "I did not choose Engineering; Engineering chose me."
Having said that, perhaps another profession will "choose" me in the future, but for now I am glad doing what I do.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I'm only an engineer 40 hours a week, anyways. The rest of the time I get to be something else.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
HaHaHaHa! Because no one here has ever met a pompous doctor or lawyer right??
Engineering offers many lucrative possibilities. Heck, something like a third of fortune 500 CEOs have engineering degrees, and I assume started in engineering before they started advancing. Accountants who start as junior auditors would likely jump at management positions rather than stay where they are for the 'novelty' of being a 'public accountant'. I think engineers tend to be less enthusiastic about moving up in their company, as being in management will somehow make them less of an engineer. Maybe I'm just not as hardcore about engineering as some of you on here, but I think this is just nonsense.
There have been several comments in this threads indicating that lawyers may be better off. I don't think I know a single lawyer who doesn't hate what they do or is bored to death. I know more high paid VPs who started as engineers than I know rich lawyers.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I do not feel the same, although I wish I did because life would be easier. I also have many co-workers who do not feel the same, based on our day-to-day conversations.
I think those of us who fall into the for money-not-love category of engineering professionals may have been convinced to choose engineering for the wrong reasons (see KENAT'S response above). This is why I am sort of against these women-in-engineering recruitment bonanzas. I know many women I work with who studied engineering because of reasons other than loving engineering, and those "other reasons" don't seem to lead to long term career satisfaction. Now, another woman engineer here loves to work on cars, did field work for 7 years, & is as much of an engineer's engineer as any of the guys here, so I'm not saying all women are like me.
As for the prejudice that we need to fix that prohibits women from entering the field, I don't know anything about that. It wasn't my experience, so I won't speak for other women who felt that way. I personally was welcomed with open arms by both engineering schools I attended, and I have felt the same thing in industry. Any jerks I worked with didn't discriminate between men and women, they treated everyone poorly.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Hg
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RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Where there was nothing at all, when I walked away, there's a fully operational manufacturing facility making product, providing jobs.
In my mind, this is more satisfying to my soul than moving columns of figures around a page.
old field guy
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Quite the opposite Kenat, I think there are too many PE/CEngs who *are* engineers but not *actually* doing engineering work. Ppl go for engineering degrees because it's a valuable degree (and rightfully so) but the fact is, most don't care a hoot about "engineering" things and really just want job security.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Do make sure it’s the Engineering you don’t like not your employer. If my current employer had been my first out of school I may have changed fields too! Also make sure it’s not some sub field of your specialty you find yourself in that you don’t like. For instance I’m not sure I’d find HVAC very interesting but loved Aerospace/Defense and machine design isn’t too bad.
I’m also glad you haven’t encountered discrimination, I have seen incidences that could be considered discrimination and have even been on the receiving end of what could be considered sexual harassment, but I don’t hold it against engineering.
My comment “As to what ratio of men to women, who cares” was in answer to the second paragraph of the OP, although re-reading the question it was perhaps a slight misdirection, sorry.
I believe for the most part we shouldn’t care if specific individuals, or even specific groups of people don’t want to be engineers, it’s their choice. The important thing is of course that they have that choice (see I do care about discrimination etc.), subject to having the basic aptitude etc. and that they have the information to make an informed decision. Recruitment drives that focus primarily on recruiting from specific groups of the population without consideration of factors such as basic aptitude/desire to be engineers are probably a bad idea in the long run. Measuring the number/% of any group in Engineering as a measure of discrimination seems a pretty blunt/inaccurate tool, or am I getting off topic now?
Now making sure we have enough engineers overall is worth spending a little time on although in a free market shouldn’t supply and demand take care of this.:)
As to why should we become/stay engineers.
How about the world needs us?
For example the Engineers that design sewage systems/waste water treatment plants etc. probably save more lives per year than all the Cardiac Surgeons put together. Certainly I recall seeing/hearing that back in the 19th century Engineers saved a lot more lives with these types of projects than all of medicine did.
Why is it that wanting to be a Doctor or Social Worker or Aid Worker because you want to make the world better/help people is readily accepted by most people (even if a bit trite) but if I said part of the reason I became an Engineer is to make the world better people (including me) would laugh.
Also if everyone went off to be a stock broker, market analyst, lawyer, accountant, management consultant, wheeler dealer etc. who would actually design, build, maintain things in order to generate the ‘wealth’ that these people pass around and recycle.
Hope I haven’t upset anyone this time.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
And that is just the beginning, electricty, aircraft, automobiles, dams, roads, abodes, comodes, computers, a variety of chemicals and pharma products, agriculture, and on and on all have improved the well being of human kind, and all rely on engineers... Cardiac surgeons could not save anyone without us... We are a noble profession indeed.
I love it, and I make a great living at it.
(Counting down for the inevitable post that: SMS you are a naive fool , engineering sucks, and all engineers are miserable.. 5...4...3..)
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970
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RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
You are right, the black plague was never 'cured' it was driven away by underground sewrage systems. I tell people this and many dont believe me.
As for the original post. I think it is the fact that engineers enjoy their jobs that keeps salaries lower than the more mundane professions like accounting and law.
If someone offered to pay me twice as much for something I enjoyed more then I would leave without a second thought.
csd
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
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RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I studied many years in this field after all, what else could I do? I love this job :)
Cyril Guichard
Railroad Sub-System Manager
Belgium
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
The current most likely explanation for the disappearance of the plague is the gradual extinction and replacement of the European black rat by the Norwegian brown rat, which doesn't carry plague. This was an environmental/evolutionary process likely beyond human control or intervention. Sewer systems helped a lot of diseases, but probably not the plague. Just an opinion.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Glad I'm not the only one who actually likes being an engineer/thinks it's of worth.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I work with girls to introduce them to these fields, and some of them get really excited when they see what engineers can do. Others, not so much. But the issue is opportunity. If girls get shunted off to other careers, we may be losing valuable brainpower to the legal profession. And that can't possilby be a good thing! :)
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I dunno, just seemed to be apropos to this thread
http:
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Star for Cass
Can't help thinking though, if a guy had posted that it may have gone down like a lead balloon, or a proverbial in a punch bowl.
Another reason for staying in Engineering, otherwise the manufacturers of slide rules, pocket protectors, drawing boards, erazor shields etc. (pick your archaic/stereo typical favourite) would go bankrupt.
Maybe we need to start advertising, I'm thinking:
or
or even
Seriously so much around us is due to Engineers and their historic predecessors. Most of the 7 wonders were works of Engineering, and some of the things people like Brunel did are really inspiring, at least to a geek like me.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
1. Management is pushed to sent women up the ladder and a title of Sales manager does that. Oh, a sales manager earns less than a next level engineeer.
2. They chose to leave when their significate other moves.
3. They are moved out because they cannot produce. On the other hand men are asked to leave or forced to move.
At this point the list of reasons people leave join and its the same for both. The item listed in 1 is at the bottom of mens list, number 2 as about 1/2 way down and number 3 is the top of the list for men.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
So I guess another reason for leaving engineering is a desire to advance within a given company in a given area. This is probably not true for everyone, but for me it is fact I am faced with.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Ciao.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Not to side track to a theology discussion, but how does God feel?
Is God feeling happy and content today or vengeful??
Also just for my own curiosity what kind of structure is God working on right now?
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Also, I doubt God has to do timesheets, project admin...
None the less flamby glad you enjoy.
There is someting cool about seeing a finished product and saying 'I designed (or at least somehow helped create) that'.
A couple of times I've looked in aircraft magazines and seen something I worked on and got a kick from it.
(This months airforces monthly is a good example, in the Typhoon article, all those black & yellow Paveways, and the blue ones labelled "Ballistic Flutter Environmental" that used to be my project when I was still in the UK. Don't get the same thrill from Atomic Force Microscopes though.)
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
http://
Sorry about the corny title but the discussion is a definite must listen.
(If you want to know what a polite fight sounds like, toward the end you'll hear it.)
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
LOL! I teach night classes and some of my students (11-year-olds) asked me what do I do during the day. When I told them I'm an engineer, they looked very confused and one of the girls said, "But engineers are males!"
We have a long way to go when it comes to promoting engineering as a career option for girls, especially in my country.
And even in the industry, there are still challenges. I used to work with a senior engineer who kept asking me whose secretary I was. When I started out, I had three strikes against me: my gender, my youth and my race. Of these three I can't say which has the most impact. Luckily I am now working in a company where all they care about is the quality (and to a slightly lesser extent, quantity) of your work. Maybe in the US it's different, I don't know. All I know is engineering is a pretty exciting job, even if I have to put up with my boss' micromanagement sometimes...
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
So to answer your question: There is nothing superior or inferior about Engineering. It's a choice. As in any career, if there is a lack of passion, then it's just a job. But if you are passionate about what you do, whether teacher, doctor, lawyer, or engineer.
Either way, I wish you luck in finding your passion-evoking career.
V
Mechanical Engineer
"When I am working on a problem, I do not think of beauty, but when I've finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
nice quote, I agree, some days I feel i dont get enough money/vacation/etc. for the work i do... but days when a design comes together well... Its just the sweetest feeling and I can work for free, if i didnt have bills to pay
So far I am satisfied with my career choice.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I have no problem with programmes which are intended to show girls that engineering is a viable option for them. I believe there are plenty of women with a true natural ability and aptitude for engineering, and it would be a shame for the profession to lose them (and for them to lose a potentially rewarding career) merely due to adolescent peer pressure and misinformation. But I also have a problem with recruitment of students to study engineering, regardless of which gender is targeted, when misinformation is used in the process. Engineering is a profession which has seen its level of societal respect and monetary compensation fall (drastically) relative to those of other professions for one reason more than any other: we've allowed ourselves to become over-supplied relative to true market demand for our services. THAT is why so many engineering graduates leave engineering for greener pastures! And that we, as a profession, are complicit in this process just makes me mad!
possumk: figure out what you're passionate about and do that. You spend too much time at work and put too much of yourself into it for it not to be something you're passionate about. If you're in engineering for the money, or in an attempt to right some historical imbalance between the genders in our profession, or because you feel that you need to be an engineer for society's benefit, you've bet on the wrong horse. Chances are it's not just you personally that are dissatisfied with your career choice: chances are, the people who you're working with and for are suffering to some degree from your lack of passion for what you do. But then again, if a lot of your co-workers are feeling the same way, maybe it's merely the fault of the TYPE of engineering you're doing or perhaps you're just working for a bad firm which does boring work. I can say with certainty that none of my colleagues feel the way you seem to about engineering. We're all passionate about what we do. And I believe that this passion explains our success. But we're also REALISTIC about engineering as a profession relative to others, and don't try to make engineering something that it's not.
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Actually, I think the problem isn't ENGINEERING. I don't see a significantly higher percentage of women in Physics, chemisty, or computer science. The problem I've seen is high school counsellors who tell grad 10 girls "don't take all 3 sciences, that's too hard".
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
My highschool counsellors had all the girls going for ART!
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
I'm thankful that we had parental support in petitioning the school board. I had great support from my parents, they wanted me to be challenged and not bored in school.
Also, we did not listen to the guidance counselor or the principal-otherwise we would have been in gym class and study hall. It was a fight, but well worthwile.
Of the 4 of us: a chem eng, pharmacist, advanced radiology technologist, nuclear med technologist.
oh yeah, I played with lots of legos and created lots of chemistry experiments in mom's kitchen
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Men/Women Staying in Engr, maybe we're the fools
Some fit better than others and a perfectly good suit may not be right for some people.
If you find you are wearing a suit that does not fit or is not right for you then change it. If it fits and is right for you then keep wearing it.
Personally my career has been a succession of engineering suits. I have had multiple assignments in the profession from design to operations and construction management. I have tried on other professional suits in a couple management assignments and found they also were a good fit, just were missing some of the satisfaction that I find in construction management.
We cannot all be the same, IMHO the secret to happiness is finding your niche in life and not envying about the other guy too much.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com