Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Quality of Structural Drafting Work
(OP)
If you have technical structural drafstmen working for/with you, what type of quality work are they putting out? aka, how much hand holding do you have to do to get a set of drawings out that are understandable and free of a dimensional nightmare? I'm trying to gauge whether or not I'm expecting too much.
I recently changed jobs and I'm shocked to find so many problems with the sets these guys are putting together. They require the engineers to basically babysit the draftsmen. Should I really have to go through the set and make sure dimensions are snapped to column grid lines? Spelling errors galore are corrected? Section cuts and detail markers easy to follow? I'm almost thinking of leaving this company because of the liability to my PE license. They just had a $30,000 claim (not on my license thank god) because they couldn't get an elementary steel dimension correct.
Any words of wisdom are welcome.
I recently changed jobs and I'm shocked to find so many problems with the sets these guys are putting together. They require the engineers to basically babysit the draftsmen. Should I really have to go through the set and make sure dimensions are snapped to column grid lines? Spelling errors galore are corrected? Section cuts and detail markers easy to follow? I'm almost thinking of leaving this company because of the liability to my PE license. They just had a $30,000 claim (not on my license thank god) because they couldn't get an elementary steel dimension correct.
Any words of wisdom are welcome.






RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
When I hand a detail off, I have it drawn on engineering paper. I get it back from CAD and I check it, not only for everything that I had in the detail, but I also try to look at it "fresh" to ensure the original design makes sense. It is usually pretty easy to pick up spelling errors - I don't see this as such a burden.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I would be concerned, not just with how things are, but if it looks like they will be improving. If you're working with new people, there's hope. If they've been there for years, it may be time to move on.
Part of it is knowing what expectations are. If you're expected to do a perfect drawing, you'll look at it accordingly. If you get to thinking "Well the checking will fix that so I won't look at anything twice", you wind up with a mess.
Part may depend on the workload as well- they may be shuffling work through so fast they don't care.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I'm just trying to define the boundary between normal checking and having to take 3 days to rework entire sets because they make no sense to anyone.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
That being said, it is my expectation of drafters and designers that dimensional accuracy and having sufficient dimensions to build from is their responsibility. With computer x-references, dimensional accuracy plus coordination between disciplines should be a relatively task. The weak link is the human decision making process.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I have worked with all types from those who you give a beam size and a number of bolts to those that can only copy your sketches onto drawings. Unfortunately with the structural engineering industries reluctance to invest in training the later are becoming more common.
There are 2 issues here, one as you pointed out is the greater potential for mistakes, the second is the fact that you are less productive because you are spending so much time going over their work.
csd
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Draftsmen/detailers should know what the expectations are and be able to reference old sets for assistance, if necessary at all.
From there a working print is made and a careful and proud detailer will check it before it is given to the chief detailer or engineer. Following a working print, a quality print is made and checked by the engineer or engineering supervisor.
Few mistakes make it past that control.
Excessive working prints is cause for allowing the detailer permanent vacation.
Regards,
![[pipe] pipe](https://www.tipmaster.com/images/pipe.gif)
Qshake
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
One final note, unless you are acontract employee, your prfessional liability should be protected by the corperation. If it is not, this is not a good sign either.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
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RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
DRC1 made a good point, if the problem is with the managements attitude (apathy) to this then you have no choice but to leave, if the problem is an individual then you need to push to change their attitude.
csd
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Chris
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I also have less experienced drafters working for me. I had to spend much more time helping the less experienced one who drew the substructure to have the drawings done the way I wanted them to be.
I have learnt something that if a drafter is not completely an ediot, if you keep them in your close supervision they can deliver up to your expectetions.
So, the key is, you need to make clear what your expectations are and provide adequate supervision to have your expections come to reality.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Ability of the individual drafters are very closely correlated to your company's philosophy and the ratio of engineer to drafters. With a very low engineer to drafter ratio, you expect drafters to think and create. A high engineer to drafter ratio, engineers have to provide much more information.
Regardless of the existing company philosophy on such topic, I attempt to implement my own. Assess the current situation and decide whether you need more engineers or hire capable drafters. After sufficient number of attempts, if the company does not grant your wishes, plan to move on.
The essential function of a drafter is to communicate ideas ultimately on paper. Spelling, grammar, ability to understand structural/construction terms, ability to check for completeness are some of the qualities that are more important than proficiency in AutoCAD.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
When the recession hit hard in the early 1980's companies held onto their senior guys, and ditched the intermediate and junior guys. Now we have a huge gap between engineers like me with 10+ years of experience and say guys with 20 or 30 years experience - they are few and far between. (Thank goodness for this site!)
Now with Acad and computers there are a lot of drafting staff who can click buttons and change things faster than ever, but the drawings don't tell you anything. Some cut a million sections and blow-up details that have no useful info on them. Others don't even put on gridlines or any dimensions - the "art" of doing an "efficient" and high quality set of drawings is mostly lost.
In addition, a lot of time and money is wasted by rushing drawings out the door that are poorly done - if archs + engs spent time coordinating their dwgs before they went out the door projects would come in on budget and with less delays and confusion - now if we could just sell that idea to the owners, who probably think they are getting what they should.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I have worked with drafters of all different abilities over the years. The most enjoyable are the ones who are willing to take responsibility for their work as well as the ones who may be less experienced but continue to strive to know more and take on more. My least favorite are the ones who are proud beyond their ability, think they know everything, don't ask questions and just put in their time and expect you to catch all of their errors. Unfortunately, you will find both types of people in all professions. I have found similar problems with architects, engineers and contractors.
I try to adjust the way I work with the particular type of person that I am working with. I also try to keep an eye on the other disciplines so that they don't do something that directly affects me. This is hard to do until you learn what some of the pitfalls are. Just a few of the things from other disciplines that can directly affect your liability are: lack of scuppers or overflow drains, using controlled flow roof drains, improper masonry detailing, changes late in the game, changing drywall partitions to masonry partitions on supported floors, plumbing under or thru column footings, parallel plumbing lines too close to footings, arrangement of openings thru floors, improper dimensioning from architectural, structurally significant changes with no notification/communication, fire rating of walls and structures, change of structural material provided in the field with no consultation of engineer, etc.
I find that the lowest liability firms are the ones who do the same buildings over and over and conversely the highest liability firms are the ones who are constantly doing different buildings and pushing the envelope so to speak. Unfortunately, the most challenging work is the later and this is where the highest exposure normally is.
Best of luck in whatever you decide!
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
If you don't train drafters properly, you don't get a middle age drafter, you get a middle age TRACER. That is worse because they rely on real draftsmen or engineers to do their jobs.
Regards,
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Qshake
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
csd
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
If anything goes wrong with the project, whether it be drafting error, engineering error, omissions by anyone in your design team that you overlooked because of your neglegence (or lack of time due to your busy schedule or other excuses), only you will be professionally liable. Not the project engineer or drafters who worked for you.
That is why the salary/benefit package needs to be at least par with the amount of exposure to professional risk.
To address Galambo's question: If you have two years of experience and you are not stamping, one or two drafters should not be a reason to leave a firm. I'd deal with it. Every company you go to will have one or two guys you can't get along with. If ALL your drafters are against you, time to move on or evaluate yourself.
I like Qshake's reference to tracers. Modern day equivalent are CAD guys who have no idea what they are drawing on CAD.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
When I started some years ago, I spent alot of time drawing very percise and detailed sketches to give to drafters, some who put them under the milar and traced them. Now I can draw them in CAD-done. My experience has been such with young structural engineers or senior designers doing the CAD set up, schedules, typical details, etc.
I'm suprised to hear that there still are non-design type drafters out there!
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I think too many engineers do their own cad as a result of the poor quality of the industries draftsmen.
Personally I disagree with the practic, but I have done it and I understand why some people do it.
I have 2 issues with it:
Firstly a skilled and well trained draftsman will draw up the details and save an engineer time that can be spent on engineering. I have worked with draftsmen where all you had to do was give them beam sizes and number of bolts and they could produce a set of drawings that just needed to be checked.
Secondly, drafting your own work means you are doing less engineering and it therefore flattens the learning curve. An engineer with 4 years experience that has spent half their time drafting really has only 2 years of engineering experience.
I liken the relationship to lawyers and legal secretaries. Lawyers dont type up their own contracts, they have legal secretaries to do that for them. The legal secretaries get paid well because they are skilled and knowledgable and save the lawyer time.
csd
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Also, if the project is unusual, say with weird geometry, non standard details, etc etc, there is even more incentive for the actual designer to have a hand in getting the design onto paper. Depends also on the aptitude of the engineer. Some people are cut out for cad, others just are not.
There probably will be more engineers doing cad as time goes on as the analysis and cad software become more and more integrated and automated. Business models will need to adjust to that somehow.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
That is just a symptom of how low our expectations of drafting have gotten. A result of too long treating them like a commodity and not investing any time into training them.
One simple solution - employ permanent drafting staff and train them!
csd
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
An office that is relatively decent size should have at least one lead drafter to set drafting standards/training programs and at least one CAD guru to establish office CAD standards/training programs. The rest of the drafters take their instructions together with engineers' input.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
The lack of secretaries is probably a symptom of us being too cheap. A good secretary would probably earn more than the graduate engineers.
csd
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
In many small offices, one drafter may wear many hats. If he is blind, replace him with a Rambo.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
If they cant communicate the design without incurring an E&O I'm not really so sure why they exist.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Is this just because Engineering education wasn't as developed yet?
Or did some of the discipline and skills/techniques required of Draftsmen make them better Engineers?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
At our company, we worked on the board with the immediate supervisor the chief draftsman. After a period of detailing we moved on to designer work and then to engineering work.
Personally, I think we should continue that as the one thing that is most lacking of graduates is how structures fit together and being on the board (even computer) is a good way to figure it out.
Regards,
![[pipe] pipe](https://www.tipmaster.com/images/pipe.gif)
Qshake
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
I hope you are exaggerating a bit when you say, "the best guys we're seeing out of school can barely comprehend tributary area..."
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
today we're spoilt with CAD tools doing this for us, and i think we lose touch with the reality of the assembly 'cause we don't have to think about it as much.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Is it possible that when these experienced designers are given a task that they see more of the issues associated with the job or so produce a good job (doesn't need rework) in a longer time than it takes someone to simply put cursor to CRT (ok, LCD screen these days) ?
Is it possible that they aren't as great as they think they are, but your management keeps them round 'cause they're chicken (to lay them off) or into social welfare or maybe into trying to teach you young turks (assumed) something from their experience ?
Granted it is probable thet they hardened cogentative processes (at 50 - 60 years old) don't adapt well to the latest CAD tools. Granted it's possible that they've had 1 years experience 30 times over (lot's of time, not much experience).
I have to believe that your managment doesn't think there's a problem (or maybe they just don't think !). Personally I'd keep these older guys of the LCDs and in more of a leadership/guidence role.
but that's just my 2c ...
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
If you're lucky they're designers, in some cases they're just CAD Monkeys/Jockeys.
They know all the buttons but know diddly about engineering, drawing preparation etc. The equate more closely to tracers (I admit they were just before my time) than to drafters.
However I'm not really a structural guy so should probably recluse myself from this subject.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
"hummm ... I wonder how many years experience 3doorsdwn has ? and how old he(assumed) is ? ... my guess is <10 and <30 respectively."
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FYI, I have 15 years experience and am 37 years old.
"Is it possible that when these experienced designers are given a task that they see more of the issues associated with the job or so produce a good job (doesn't need rework) in a longer time than it takes someone to simply put cursor to CRT (ok, LCD screen these days) ?"
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No, these guys spend all day talking on the phone (about non-work issues).....and just generally don't produce.
"Is it possible that they aren't as great as they think they are, but your management keeps them round 'cause they're chicken (to lay them off) or into social welfare or maybe into trying to teach you young turks (assumed) something from their experience ?"
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Oh it's absolutely possible that they stink....and most of them in this area get by on their reputation (which in most cases rests on their ability to get along with others rather than productivity). Don't get me wrong: getting along with your co-workers IS important; but so is producing.
"I have to believe that your managment doesn't think there's a problem (or maybe they just don't think !). Personally I'd keep these older guys of the LCDs and in more of a leadership/guidence role."
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Personally, I'd prefer some younger, hungrier guys around here. You can't train younger designers (of which there are not many unfortunately) if you spend all day on the phone and e-mailing your buddies.
RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work
Drafter need not know how to design but be able to understand engineer's design and put that on paper.
Drafters are not necessarily designers because design involves creative process. Old-timer drafters can put a set of drawings together not because they are able to design everything. They do that from experience of having put together drawings/details based on old engineer's creations in the past.
I have no idea about elsewhere in the United States (nor anywhere else in the world) but along my side of the coast, new engineers without a license are called designers. Though there are drafters with experience with job titles such as Senior Designer or something to that effect, I personally disagreewith this practice. Legally, I don't know of any restrictions of the use of the term designer so I suppose it is fine.
My opinion and comments refer only to the field of structural engineering as it is the only field I've any experience.