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Quality of Structural Drafting Work
6

Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Quality of Structural Drafting Work

(OP)
If you have technical structural drafstmen working for/with you, what type of quality work are they putting out? aka, how much hand holding do you have to do to get a set of drawings out that are understandable and free of a dimensional nightmare?  I'm trying to gauge whether or not I'm expecting too much.

I recently changed jobs and I'm shocked to find so many problems with the sets these guys are putting together.  They require the engineers to basically babysit the draftsmen.  Should I really have to go through the set and make sure dimensions are snapped to column grid lines?  Spelling errors galore are corrected?  Section cuts and detail markers easy to follow?  I'm almost thinking of leaving this company because of the liability to my PE license.  They just had a $30,000 claim (not on my license thank god) because they couldn't get an elementary steel dimension correct.

Any words of wisdom are welcome.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

We routinely find dimension lines snapped to the wrong place or spelling mistakes.  That is part of the "checking" process, though, isn't it?  I would say I find this more often with details than plans.
When I hand a detail off, I have it drawn on engineering paper.  I get it back from CAD and I check it, not only for everything that I had in the detail, but I also try to look at it "fresh" to ensure the original design makes sense.  It is usually pretty easy to pick up spelling errors - I don't see this as such a burden.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

In the little dealing with draftsmen, I have found a pretty wide range of abilities and care.

I would be concerned, not just with how things are, but if it looks like they will be improving.  If you're working with new people, there's hope.  If they've been there for years, it may be time to move on.

Part of it is knowing what expectations are.  If you're expected to do a perfect drawing, you'll look at it accordingly.  If you get to thinking "Well the checking will fix that so I won't look at anything twice", you wind up with a mess.

Part may depend on the workload as well- they may be shuffling work through so fast they don't care.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

(OP)
We're talking about draftsmen with 30 years of experience who,  for example, don't know how to set up a foundation schedule.  Or know how to call out T/Steel elevations.

I'm just trying to define the boundary between normal checking and having to take 3 days to rework entire sets because they make no sense to anyone.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

That sounds like one year of experience done 30 times.  I would expect a lot of checking for new draftsmen, not for 30-year guys.  

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

What do you do?  There are good draftsmen and bad ones.  There are good engineers and bad ones.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

This type of problem exists in some firms where the expectations of that individual is either not made clear and/or not monitored. I find that most people will generally live up to what is expected of them. Keep in mind that all of us, at some point in time, do not perform up to our best. We all deal with personal problems that may affect our performance.

That being said, it is my expectation of drafters and designers that dimensional accuracy and having sufficient dimensions to build from is their responsibility. With computer x-references, dimensional accuracy plus coordination between disciplines should be a relatively task. The weak link is the human decision making process.  

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Atomic25,

I have worked with all types from those who you give a beam size and a number of bolts to those that can only copy your sketches onto drawings. Unfortunately with the structural engineering industries reluctance to invest in training the later are becoming more common.

There are 2 issues here, one as you pointed out is the greater potential for mistakes, the second is the fact that you are less productive because you are spending so much time going over their work.

csd

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Part of the process could be in the quality plan.  

Draftsmen/detailers should know what the expectations are and be able to reference old sets for assistance, if necessary at all.  

From there a working print is made and a careful and proud detailer will check it before it is given to the chief detailer or engineer.  Following a working print, a quality print is made and checked by the engineer or engineering supervisor.

Few mistakes make it past that control.

Excessive working prints is cause for allowing the detailer permanent vacation.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Yeah, sounds like a serious problem. I do my drafting myself, but have had really god guys do it for me. Top notch guys should be asking you questions. If it is a drafting department, talk to your manager. Don't complain, but ask if there is some miscommunication. Maybe they are used to getting certin information or expecting certian procedures sombody forgot to mention to you. If the manager does not see the problem, that is the problem. There are alot of firms doing sloppy work (including branches of well respected firms) and this may be one. Time to move on.
One final note, unless you are acontract employee, your prfessional liability should be protected by the corperation. If it is not, this is not a good sign either.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

To me it is part of the checking package - I see the same mistakes alot - many times it is use of different abbreviations from one drawing to another in a design set (example: Typ. vs Typical; concrete vs conc.).  A particular design set of drawings should have consistency between terms and abbreviations.
See:  http://www.structuremag.org/archives/2004/march/strdrawings.pdf

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Great article

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I have worked with draftsmen so bad that drawings sometimes came back to me with more mistakes than were on the check print!

DRC1 made a good point, if the problem is with the managements attitude (apathy) to this then you have no choice but to leave, if the problem is an individual then you need to push to change their attitude.

csd

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I've worked alongside a _lot_ of drafters and designers who transitioned into AutoCAD without ever taking a lesson or reading a book.  It was a point of pride for some.  All could make a drawing that _looked_ good  ... but God help you if you got stuck making a drawing for a mating part, or making a 3D model from their stuff, or "Just use this as a template; should only take 20 minutes...".






 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I understand where u are coming from on this one,  I've recently changed jobs and am still trying to feel out out the ACAD techs ability in my department.  I guess part of the problem for me is that I've been producing my own drawings in Autocad for years and I'm just a bit lazy on my markups because I'm so use to doing the drawings myself.  I go thru that dilema on every job..where it takes me as long to mark things up as it would just to make the corrections myself.  It gets frustating at times..but i guess i will make the transition.

Chris

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I have a whole segmental bridge shop drawing details being generated under my supervision.  Thaks God I have a quality draftsman who is doing the entire superstructure.  If I point out few mistakes to him, he can carry out the corrections in his future drawings.  One more thing he always does is checks the drawing on his own before giving it to me.

I also have less experienced drafters working for me.  I had to spend much more time helping the less experienced one who drew the substructure to have the drawings done the way I wanted them to be.

I have learnt something that if a drafter is not completely an ediot, if you keep them in your close supervision they can deliver up to your expectetions.

So, the key is, you need to make clear what your expectations are and provide adequate supervision to have your expections come to reality.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

shin25 makes a great point.  The drafter (read that as whether the old way or via AutoCAD) must check his work before he hands it to the Engineer.  If he doesn't, time to find someone who will.  As for ChrisKn - it will probably get easier with time if you work with the same staff as they will usually clue in on what your "style" is and adjust.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

2
Drafters need to be properly trained by engineers or senior drafters who know their stuff.  Without proper training, you end up with a mediocre middle-aged drafter at a salary higher than you're willing to pay.

Ability of the individual drafters are very closely correlated to your company's philosophy and the ratio of engineer to drafters.  With a very low engineer to drafter ratio, you expect drafters to think and create.  A high engineer to drafter ratio, engineers have to provide much more information.

Regardless of the existing company philosophy on such topic, I attempt to implement my own.  Assess the current situation and decide whether you need more engineers or hire capable drafters.  After sufficient number of attempts, if the company does not grant your wishes, plan to move on.

The essential function of a drafter is to communicate ideas ultimately on paper.  Spelling, grammar, ability to understand structural/construction terms, ability to check for completeness are some of the qualities that are more important than proficiency in AutoCAD.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

with all due respect, whyun and others, do you believe that the quality of draftsmen is something worth leaving a company for?  i'm asking as a new PE that has worked at only 2 firms.  your response would be appreciated.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

(OP)
I think it really depends on the engineer.  Although you are likely covered by your firm's insurance, it is a bit unnerving to continuously worry about drafting errors while we have enough on our plates.  Plus I think it's a matter of pride...you bust your butt to get a well designed building, but if the drawings look like junk its usually the engineer who is blamed.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I would say the big problem here is a lack of experience plain and simple.  By that I mean that in the 1950's and 1960's architects and engineers worked in the same office, drawings were done by hand and there was succession planning - Senior guy training an intermediate guy, training a junior guy.  Much like learning a trade like masonry, the trade of doing proper drawings has not been handed down very well.

When the recession hit hard in the early 1980's companies held onto their senior guys, and ditched the intermediate and junior guys.  Now we have a huge gap between engineers like me with 10+ years of experience and say guys with 20 or 30 years experience - they are few and far between. (Thank goodness for this site!)

Now with Acad and computers there are a lot of drafting staff who can click buttons and change things faster than ever, but the drawings don't tell you anything.  Some cut a million sections and blow-up details that have no useful info on them.  Others don't even put on gridlines or any dimensions - the "art" of doing an "efficient" and high quality set of drawings is mostly lost.  

In addition, a lot of time and money is wasted by rushing drawings out the door that are poorly done - if archs + engs spent time coordinating their dwgs before they went out the door projects would come in on budget and with less delays and confusion - now if we could just sell that idea to the owners, who probably think they are getting what they should.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Atomic25:  You are very perceptive to realize that the quality of work by others may affect your liability directly! Beware that decisions or actions by the architect, architectural drafters, the plumbing designers, building mechanical, etc. can also affect your liability.

 I have worked with drafters of all different abilities over the years. The most enjoyable are the ones who are willing to take responsibility for their work as well as the ones who may be less experienced but continue to strive to know more and take on more. My least favorite are the ones who are proud beyond their ability, think they know everything, don't ask questions and just put in their time and expect you to catch all of their errors. Unfortunately, you will find both types of people in all professions. I have found similar problems with architects, engineers and contractors.

I try to adjust the way I work with the particular type of person that I am working with. I also try to keep an eye on the other disciplines so that they don't do something that directly affects me. This is hard to do until you learn what some of the pitfalls are. Just a few of the things from other disciplines that can directly affect your liability are: lack of scuppers or overflow drains, using controlled flow roof drains, improper masonry detailing, changes late in the game, changing drywall partitions to masonry partitions on supported floors, plumbing under or thru column footings, parallel plumbing lines too close to footings, arrangement of openings thru floors, improper dimensioning from architectural, structurally significant changes with no notification/communication, fire rating of walls and structures, change of structural material provided in the field with no consultation of engineer, etc.  

I find that the lowest liability firms are the ones who do the same buildings over and over and conversely the highest liability firms are the ones who are constantly doing different buildings and pushing the envelope so to speak. Unfortunately, the most challenging work is the later and this is where the highest exposure normally is.

Best of luck in whatever you decide!

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I would offer one clarification to WHYUN's post on what you get if you don't train properly.

If you don't train drafters properly, you don't get a middle age drafter, you get a middle age TRACER.  That is worse because they rely on real draftsmen or engineers to do their jobs.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Yes Qshake, and a tracer doesnt really add much to the process other than transfering an engineers sketches into a neater format.

csd

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Regardless of whether an engineer is covered by the firm's insurance or not, engineer who put his seal on anything should have control over who is part of the design team working on his projects.  This means selecting the drafters, engineers and project managers to execute "your" work.  If the company does not provide this authority, it's time to move on.

If anything goes wrong with the project, whether it be drafting error, engineering error, omissions by anyone in your design team that you overlooked because of your neglegence (or lack of time due to your busy schedule or other excuses), only you will be professionally liable.  Not the project engineer or drafters who worked for you.

That is why the salary/benefit package needs to be at least par with the amount of exposure to professional risk.

To address Galambo's question:  If you have two years of experience and you are not stamping, one or two drafters should not be a reason to leave a firm.  I'd deal with it.  Every company you go to will have one or two guys you can't get along with.  If ALL your drafters are against you, time to move on or evaluate yourself.

I like Qshake's reference to tracers.  Modern day equivalent are CAD guys who have no idea what they are drawing on CAD.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

This is an excellent thread that transfers well to the more "machine design" oriented and similar industries. A proficient CAD jockey is not always the same thing as a proficient drafter.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

(OP)
Jike: Point well taken, though for some reason it feels like I have a better defense against the errors/problems of other disciplines.  You're right, once youre in this business for awhile you recognize the pitfalls before they occur.  Whenever we get an internal structural error, though, it feels like I'm getting stabbed in the back.  Probably because they're deep errors that you can easily miss unless you really stare at the drawing....which, typically you never have time to do for the entire set.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I just do the work myself when I get stuck with a drafter where I have to go through the same markups over and over again and they give me an attitued. It keeps me from getting pissed off. However, what is worse to me right now is having asinine CAD standards. Such as, we are not allowed to draw in paper space! So you have to scale up and down all the details before working on them. And not being allowed to use AutoCAD's standard dimensions and leaders. That's right, we have our own custom made menu we must use with dimensions, text, and leaders and everything comes in exploded.. (CAD manager is a moron)

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I check the drawings for dimensional errors, typos, everything before the drawings are sealed and signed.  My cad guy gets mad about some of the changes because he thinks it's nit-picky, but I always tell him the drawings are how our clients and the contractors judge our competency.  If the drawings are full of errors and look like a 3rd grader put them together, we lose respect and clients.  I've had to remind the cad guy who he works for a couple of times.  It's my name on the door and the seal.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

How many structural engineers are doing their own CAD?

When I started some years ago, I spent alot of time drawing very percise and detailed sketches to give to drafters, some who put them under the milar and traced them. Now I can draw them in CAD-done. My experience has been such with young structural engineers or senior designers doing the CAD set up, schedules, typical details, etc.

I'm suprised to hear that there still are non-design type drafters out there!

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

SteelyLee,

I think too many engineers do their own cad as a result of the poor quality of the industries draftsmen.

Personally I disagree with the practic, but I have done it and I understand why some people do it.

I have 2 issues with it:

Firstly a skilled and well trained draftsman will draw up the details and save an engineer time that can be spent on engineering. I have worked with draftsmen where all you had to do was give them beam sizes and number of bolts and they could produce a set of drawings that just needed to be checked.

Secondly, drafting your own work means you are doing less engineering and it therefore flattens the learning curve. An engineer with 4 years experience that has spent half their time drafting really has only 2 years of engineering experience.

I liken the relationship to lawyers and legal secretaries. Lawyers dont type up their own contracts, they have legal secretaries to do that for them. The legal secretaries get paid well because they are skilled and knowledgable and save the lawyer time.

csd

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

csd-  I respectfully disagree, it may not be so clear cut. An engineer who uses cad to prepare details and plans will spend more time drawing than if he had handed off his manually sketched pencil versions to a draftsman, but then he will also spend less time with check plots and iterations of mark ups. It takes a lot of time to mark up the same thing three times.  If you are working with someone who gets it right the first time, great, but many of us are not in that situation.

Also, if the project is unusual, say with weird geometry, non standard details, etc etc, there is even more incentive for the actual designer to have a hand in getting the design onto paper.  Depends also on the aptitude of the engineer.  Some people are cut out for cad, others just are not.

There probably will be more engineers doing cad as time goes on as the analysis and cad software become more and more integrated and automated.  Business models will need to adjust to that somehow.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

sandamon,

That is just a symptom of how low our expectations of drafting have gotten. A result of too long treating them like a commodity and not investing any time into training them.

One simple solution - employ permanent drafting staff and train them!

csd

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Regarding the comments since 070801, isn't this what happened with secretaries too?  We used to have a secretary for each 4 engineers or so - now we have one per floor! (maybe two if you are lucky).

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

You have secretaries, lucky ****

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Getting back to the original post, ideally disciplining/training drafters should not be the responsibility of the engineer of record.

An office that is relatively decent size should have at least one lead drafter to set drafting standards/training programs and at least one CAD guru to establish office CAD standards/training programs.  The rest of the drafters take their instructions together with engineers' input.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I believe engineers should have a say in the drafting standards, especially since many of us are in responsible charge of what's shown on the drawings.  I agree that there should be one lead person making sure the others work within those standards.  In my case, the lead guy and the other guys are all one person.  Blind leading the blind or something like that.  Regardless, it falls to the engineers to check every drawing to make sure the information shown correctly.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

BigH,

The lack of secretaries is probably a symptom of us being too cheap. A good secretary would probably earn more than the graduate engineers.

csd

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

archeng69: I agree with you.  My comment was under the assumption that the company is very established, the lead drafter has many years with the company and knows exactly what the owner (engineer) wants.

In many small offices, one drafter may wear many hats.  If he is blind, replace him with a Rambo.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

I disagree with the statement that drafting takes away from engineering. Drafting is not only enineering, it has always been the soul of engineering. Not that every engineer needs to draft everything, but he should be able to. And for a lot of projects, time spent drafting is well spent.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

(OP)
I always thought the soul of engineering was engineering.  Draftsmen were just the specialized guys who took the design from the engineers and communicated it to the field on paper.....I almost feel like I'm quoting a line from Office Space.  

If they cant communicate the design without incurring an E&O I'm not really so sure why they exist.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Call me picky, but when you look at the biographies of a lot of the old time 'great' engineers from the first half of the last century they worked their way up from draftsmen.

Is this just because Engineering education wasn't as developed yet?

Or did some of the discipline and skills/techniques required of Draftsmen make them better Engineers?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

KENAT - I am still a hold out from those days, though no great engineer by any stretch.

At our company, we worked on the board with the immediate supervisor the chief draftsman.  After a period of detailing we moved on to designer work and then to engineering work.

Personally, I think we should continue that as the one thing that is most lacking of graduates is how structures fit together and being on the board (even computer) is a good way to figure it out.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

(OP)
We put fresh graduates in drafting positions because they would otherwise be overwhelmed (and us overwhelmed by questions) in purely engineering positions.  The best guys we're seeing out of school can barely comprehend tributary area...their head would pop if I had them design a 6 story composite beam building.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

They're not draftsmen any more. They're designers. We engineers have to respect their competence.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Atomic25-
I hope you are exaggerating a bit when you say, "the best guys we're seeing out of school can barely comprehend tributary area..."

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

i'm just looking over a job we did 10 years ago, drafted by hand.  i find it quite amazing that someone can visualise a complex assembly and draw different views on differnt sheets (and get it mostly right !).

today we're spoilt with CAD tools doing this for us, and i think we lose touch with the reality of the assembly 'cause we don't have to think about it as much.

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Kenat, after graduating from engineering school I spent the first six months of my first engineering job working under a very senior engineer and assisting in the design of simple, small parts of larger structures,  and also drafting redlined prints for him and the rest of the office.  Learned a lot.   

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

What’s driving me nuts (where I work) is all these 30-40 year designers who don’t produce. It’s not so much quality as it is quantity. But where it really climbs on your nerves is when these guys start popin’ those double chins about how great they are. Like one of my favorite coaches said: “If your going to talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.”

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

hummm ... I wonder how many years experience 3doorsdwn has ?  and how old he(assumed) is ?  ... my guess is <10 and <30 respectively.

Is it possible that when these experienced designers are given a task that they see more of the issues associated with the job or so produce a good job (doesn't need rework) in a longer time than it takes someone to simply put cursor to CRT (ok, LCD screen these days) ?

Is it possible that they aren't as great as they think they are, but your management keeps them round 'cause they're chicken (to lay them off) or into social welfare or maybe into trying to teach you young turks (assumed) something from their experience ?

Granted it is probable thet they hardened cogentative processes (at 50 - 60 years old) don't adapt well to the latest CAD tools.  Granted it's possible that they've had 1 years experience 30 times over (lot's of time, not much experience).

I have to believe that your managment doesn't think there's a problem (or maybe they just don't think !).  Personally I'd keep these older guys of the LCDs and in more of a leadership/guidence role.

but that's just my 2c ...  

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

myopia,

If you're lucky they're designers, in some cases they're just CAD Monkeys/Jockeys.

They know all the buttons but know diddly about engineering, drawing preparation etc.  The equate more closely to tracers (I admit they were just before my time) than to drafters.

However I'm not really a structural guy so should probably recluse myself from this subject.  

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Make that recuse myself.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

rb1957,

"hummm ... I wonder how many years experience 3doorsdwn has ?  and how old he(assumed) is ?  ... my guess is <10 and <30 respectively."
----------------
FYI, I have 15 years experience and am 37 years old.

"Is it possible that when these experienced designers are given a task that they see more of the issues associated with the job or so produce a good job (doesn't need rework) in a longer time than it takes someone to simply put cursor to CRT (ok, LCD screen these days) ?"
---------------------
No, these guys spend all day talking on the phone (about non-work issues).....and just generally don't produce.


"Is it possible that they aren't as great as they think they are, but your management keeps them round 'cause they're chicken (to lay them off) or into social welfare or maybe into trying to teach you young turks (assumed) something from their experience ?"
-----------------------------------
Oh it's absolutely possible that they stink....and most of them in this area get by on their reputation (which in most cases rests on their ability to get along with others rather than productivity). Don't get me wrong: getting along with your co-workers IS important; but so is producing.

"I have to believe that your managment doesn't think there's a problem (or maybe they just don't think !).  Personally I'd keep these older guys of the LCDs and in more of a leadership/guidence role."
------------------
Personally, I'd prefer some younger, hungrier guys around here. You can't train younger designers (of which there are not many unfortunately) if you spend all day on the phone and e-mailing your buddies.


RE: Quality of Structural Drafting Work

Engineer needs to know how to engineer a design and also get that design on paper, i.e. draft.

Drafter need not know how to design but be able to understand engineer's design and put that on paper.

Drafters are not necessarily designers because design involves creative process.  Old-timer drafters can put a set of drawings together not because they are able to design everything.  They do that from experience of having put together drawings/details based on old engineer's creations in the past.

I have no idea about elsewhere in the United States (nor anywhere else in the world) but along my side of the coast, new engineers without a license are called designers.  Though there are drafters with experience with job titles such as Senior Designer or something to that effect, I personally disagreewith this practice.  Legally, I don't know of any restrictions of the use of the term designer so I suppose it is fine.

My opinion and comments refer only to the field of structural engineering as it is the only field I've any experience.

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