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Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

That's basically absurd.  

Disassociating water to burn the hydrogen results in what?

WATER!!  

Any other claimed result has to be absurd.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

It slices and dices, cures cancer, solves the world energy problems, travels through time, and picks winning lottery numbers...and if you buy now we'll throw in a set of steak knives.  How much do you think this is worth....  For the next 20 minutes you can have this wonderful device for not $1 million, not $100,000....only 3 easy payments of $39.95.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

I tried to see how many watts it was using, that would be fun.  It looked like mid range was 500 watts which would be .67 HP.  The Rider-Ericsson heat engine looked like it might go .2 HP, Hummmm put in .67 HP get .2 HP out????

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

That's some dark science there....  If he dropped that thing at the beach it could vaporize the planet!!!

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

maybe he needs to test the water in his canal to see what is in it--maybe there is some unique chemical leaking into the canal that he is not aware of!!

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

I think the unique chemical is in his drinking water!

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

But wait!!! But wait!!! if you buy the knife set we will throw in a free fruit and vegetable dicer.

rmw

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Hi,
Einstein gave the equation e=mc2, that theoretically means that you can get huge energy out of small matter. As everyone here I am also skeptical, however did any one notice magic of falling Apple, or splashing water before Newton and Archmedes?

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

schwarz, So you think is "nuked" the water and that is a fussion reaction taking place?  Or maybe antimatter?

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

You'd think if he'd really got this thing working by now it would have shown up somewhere besides the WPBF website. Like a patent office or science journal.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Well, EVERYONE knows that there's a government conspiracy to keep such inventions locked up or otherwise unexploited.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Didn't we debunk this quack earlier; maybe the thread got deleted?

Anyway, the following is wrong:
"Kanzius said the flame created from his machine reaches a temperature of around 3,000 degrees Farenheit [sic]. He said a chemist told him that the immense heat created from the machine breaks down the hydrogen-oxygen bond in the water, igniting the hydrogen."

An oxygen-hydrogen flame can reach a temperature of 2900 K* (4760 °F), so
1) water won't break down (significantly) at a measly 3000 °F, and
2) if it did, the heat required would be equal to that from combustion of the hydrogen & oxygen created. I.e., no gain.

*http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=4753818

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

dcosta, nothing nuclear about it. Just to repeat tinfoil- "Seems ridiculous, but who knows?". I merely tried to say initially most discoveries are looked upon on with ridicule.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Just off boat from Hawai'i, energy is energy, un less you smash an atom to get E=mc^2, the ethalphy and entrophy must add up and not be a net gaim.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

schwarz,
It's better to start a new thread (especially, don't append upon a nonsensical burning of saltwater thread!).

Re the Purdue idea, which briefly uses gallium to enhance the corrosion of aluminum:
 Al + 3 H2O = Al(OH)3 + 3/2 H2(gas)

Metal finishers (anodizers, platers, extruders) have long used the etching reaction
2 Al + 2 NaOH --> 2 NaAlO2 + H2(gas)

This reaction was used during World War I by the US Army to generate H2 in the field for spotter balloons. The Iraqi Army in early 2001 had almost identical trailers for H2 generation (mis-identified as bio-weapons labs).

Eco-Tec has a caustic soda (NaOH) recovery unit which recovers the NaOH for further use, and hydrated alumina which goes to a primary aluminum producers for Al recovery. It uses the well-known Bayer process (a hydrolysis reaction):
2 NaAlO2 + 4H2O --> 2 NaOH + Al2O3.3H2O

Combining the latter 2 reactions and simplifying,

2 Al + 4H2O --> Al2O3.3H2O  + H2(gas)

Not as much hydrogen per aluminum, but it doesn't require gallium (which is of limited supply, with price being driven up by semiconductor mfrs.).

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat


To kenvlach, just for the sake of balancing out the oxygen in the equations, the second one should be:

2 Al + 2 NaOH + 2 H2O => 2 NaAlO2 + 3 H2

The last one would become:

2 Al + 6 H2O => Al2O3.3H2O + 3 H2

With the same amount of hydrogen per aluminum as in the Purdue idea. Agree ? smile

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

great, then you have to add energy to get your metals back to start over again.  Its just a battery and an expensive one at that.  

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Thanks, 25362. I did that in the wee hours of the morning.  Looks 3x better!

dcasto, aluminum is a good fuel in terms of high heat of combustion/weight; that's why it's used in solid fuel rockets. However, can't use directly in an IC engine due to alumina combustion product.  So, it's good that people are looking at closed-loop alternatives.  However, the Purdue Univ. story has a big hole in it:
"Enough aluminum exists in the United States to produce 100 trillion kilowatt hours of energy. That's enough energy to meet all the U.S. electric needs for 35 years."

Overlooks the fact that that is merely recovering the enormous amount of electricity used in producing the aluminum from its oxide. So, no net gain.  But, it's easier to stockpile aluminum than hydrogen or other forms of electricity or thermal energy.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

Follow-up to OP:
Dr. Rustum Roy, an internationally respected Penn State University professor, "held a demonstration last week at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.
"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field.
...
Dr. Roy's tests on the machine last week provided further evidence that the process is releasing and burning hydrogen from the water. Tests on different water solutions and concentrations produced various temperatures and flame colors."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm

Molecular bonds naturally vibrate as a function of temperature, i.e., the atoms oscillate closer & farther.  Whereas it takes lots of energy to thermally dissociate a water molecule; it's conceivable that the right RF could add to the natural molecular vibration, therby lowering the activation energy for dissociation.  Although I think an extremely high frequency would be required. We'll surely hear more about this if it actually works, as the DOE is considering funding Dr. Roy's work.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

I said it earlier, the radio frequency generator was consuming more enery than the stirling engine could produce.
kenvlatch, Like I said, you gotta reverse the whole thing to get the aluminum back, and I can gaurentee the second law will get back at you in a big way on this one.

RE: Has anyone had a serious look at this: Burning saline to generate heat

From the video at thread633-197225: Burning salt water for energy?
I noticed that the 'burning saltwater' has a nice yellow sodium color (whereas hydrogen has a colorless flame).  So, trying to figure out the heat of combustion of Na+ in the saltwater.
Na+ --> Na (metal)               -ΔHsolution = +240.1 kJ/mol

Na(solid, metal) --> Na (liq)         ΔHfusion = +2.6
Na(liq) + 1/2 O2 --> 1/2 Na2O      1/2 ΔHformation, Na2O = -206.5 kJ/mol*
 
So net is +36.2 kJ/mol, i.e., endothermic.

*Unfortunately, I only have Na2O data up to 1000 K; properly, should include Na(liq) --> Na (g)  ΔHvap = +97.6 kJ/mol, but this cancels as it makes ΔHformation, Na2O more exothermic.

Any other ideas on energy contributions [& note that Cl oxides don't have exothermic ΔHf's]?

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