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Justify new workstations

Justify new workstations

Justify new workstations

(OP)
So I started at a new company and they have some pretty pathetic computers. So I went to SPECapc and downloaded their benchmarking software for what we use (Solidworks in this case) and had all our engineers run it.

In short, the conclusion, on average, our PCs are 52% slower than Dell's Precision 390 (cost about $3K).

What's a good way to show the cost of us running slower? Or what's a good way to justify the new computers. I have a burden rate, but I can't just arbitrarily say we'll save 1/2 that rate.

Any tips would be great!

RE: Justify new workstations

Why not?  If it takes you twice as long to complete a task, that's wasted time.

Break down tasks; rebuilds, opening assemblies, saves, drawing changes... estimate how often these tasks are done on a monthly basis and use an estimated hourly rate.  Then use the same data with the 50% time reduction against the rate.  Factor in the cost of new computers and you should have a pretty sizable ROI.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Justify new workstations

Doing calcs like MadMango states is great for accountants, and sometimes management, but it only gives half the story.

I always like calling the boss over to tell him you need to ask him a question.  They always come a bit later than you want.  When he arrives at your desk, tell him to hold on a second, I need to rebuild the model to show you this.  He'll soon get so bored watching the hourglass with you he'll understand why you want a new computer and can't believe that he is wasting that much of his designers' time each day.

As you're waiting, tell him that you do this 5, 6, 10, 12 times a day.  He'll get the hint really quick.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Justify new workstations

Only 52% slower?  They must be last years computers as that's hardly what I'd call "pathetic".

It really depends on how much of your time is spent waiting.  If all you're doing is regenerating your model all day, then you'll see that 50% will be a huge timesaver.  I suspect, however, that you regen less than you think, and that all you'll be doing is quickly adapting to a new expectation of speed that will lead to the exact same frustration level.

I'd estimate that I'm using a similar performing computer.  I have access to a box that is supposedly 2x better.  I hardly notice the difference when I'm using it.  Hence I'm waiting for at least a 3x or 4x performance difference before I try justifying an upgrade.

-b

RE: Justify new workstations

Percentages are misleading.  If it takes me 6mins to open a complex model, and 3mins for each regen (say 5x a day), that's 21mins wasted per user, 3 users and you've just wasted a man-hour.  But if it only took 2mins to open and 10sec to regen, then the 50% increase isn't that much of a gain.  The OP needs to do more in-depth, real world (your own models and work flow) time studies to realize potential gains.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Justify new workstations

I beleive swertel is on to something. In my experience if you are at a company that doesn't keep the engineer's computers reasonably up to date then you have a bigger problem than just out dated computers.

Justifying computers or a new software package on paper has always been an exercise in futility and something managment has you do to keep you out of their hair.

hope I'm wrong in your case and you get some nice new Dell Quad processor machine with 8 gig RAM.

RE: Justify new workstations

(OP)
My boss is fully aware of our issues. Unfortunately, he needs a cost justification in order to sell his boss. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of whiney engineers.

I have done times on my own PC with open and save times anywhere from 3-5 minutes. We're talking assemblies with 50-100 parts. We have P4 3Ghz with 1GB RAM and Quadro FX 1400. We managed to bump up our ram to 3GB, 'cause that was using "petty cash" within our budget. That helped with managing drawings (dragging views, balloons, etc) and helped with regens, and mating. However, we still have performance hits with assemblies (75+ parts). Fortunately, we do mostly sheetmetal, so parts themselves are simplistic.

RE: Justify new workstations

Engineers are overhead (ie) a necesary evil for the company to make and sell a product for a profit. Typically engineers time in terms of productivity is not viewed the same as a production workers that makes 10 wiggets a day.

Based on that logic don't be suprised if upper management looks at those numbers and says "while they are waiting for assemblies to load they can be reading a report or doing some other work."

Sorry to be a pessimist but if your boss is fully aware of the issues he should stand up for his folks and get the right tools in to do the job.

Good luck

RE: Justify new workstations

Agree
The seconds and minutes argument just won't work. If I were an engineering manager with a tight budget I would grin and refer you to the "How much time do you actually spend working" thread. looking around
I'd think it should be easier to find an "indispensable" new software package and then have the hardware upgraded to be able to run it.

RE: Justify new workstations

Hello GhostTX:

Here is an idea, can you borrow a Dell Quad from a dealer? Then install SWX and open your assemblies in that machine, and show the time differences to management.

BTW many moons ago, I had a very slow PC when I first learned SWX. At the time it was frustrating, but I learned how to create simplified configs, lock external references, save on rebuild times by mirroring bodies and using geometry patterns. So when I finally got a fast PC, those assemblies rocked.

Anyways, hope all works out great for you.

RE: Justify new workstations

52% slower, does that mean that they are running at 48% of the speed or do you mean 52% as fast?

The language doesnt make much of a difference in this case, but it could if the number was, say 10%.

If I said that it was running 10% slower, nobody would think it meant 1/10th of the speed.

csd

RE: Justify new workstations

(OP)
On average, our machines perform the benchmark in 303.23 seconds, the Precision 390 does the test in 143.19 seconds.

We already had SWX come to our plant to check out the peformance and they gave us the large assembly mode, configs, etc. Our biggest hit is we have a HUGE UGS file vault. We just went to SWX 1 year ago. The SWX admits the imported files hit the machines harder than native SWX files. That's where we're getting our biggest issues.

RE: Justify new workstations

The imported files should be that big of a hit (unless helix based).  After importing to SW, save teh files as SW files.  What version SW are you using?

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: Justify new workstations

Tell your boss that if he buys you a $3K PC and gives you a $10,000 raise, you will be happy for him to double your work and he can take any shortfall from your salary.

That way everyone is happy, right?

RE: Justify new workstations

(OP)
MadMango,

SWx 2007 SP2. We do save the UG parts as SW. I guess the problem is its one large surfacing, rather than a solid model. As said, even the ppl at SWX says that's probably not helping with performance issues, since SWX is handling each imported part as surfaces. :S

LOL @ ajack1!

RE: Justify new workstations

It always seems tough to cost justify upgrading PCs as they seem to become outdated so rapidly.  For all essential purposes they are a pure expense (likely from the bosses point of view).  Software capability soon expands and slows you back down again as it demands more system resources.

A PC is a tool.  These days it is a primary tool for doing the job.  You have done some of the research that shows you can be more efficient with new hardware.  This could in theory allow the department to handle additional load due to greater throughput.  Is there additional work available in the "pipeline"?  Somehow, upper management needs to recognize a benefit (assuming there is one from their point of view) to improved efficiency/flexibility (reduced time to market perhaps).  Are there overtime premiums involved with the work.

See if you can enhance your cost justification numbers with the ability to address "larger" opportunities due to increased flexibility and speed.

Regards,

RE: Justify new workstations

since computer hardware is depreciated for tax purposes in 5 years, your management would like to keep it for the full five years.  Your IT staff would probably look at a slightly shorter period, maybe 3 - 4 years between replacements.  This would mirror the likely software upgrades (Op System and modeling software) so that your system does not become obsolete.  Unless your computer is approaching that age, not likely they will replace as a) capital cost would be quite high; b) they would have to admit that they bought the wrong equipment the first time.  Perhaps part of your problem is the file server, does it have the capacity and bandwidth necessary?  Maybe it is approaching it's useful life and could be replaced.  

RE: Justify new workstations

(OP)
Oh, everybody knows the network is even more pathetic. In fact, there's an IT project to replace the backbone and lines in every plant. Of course, its stuck in limbo 'cause of the high cost.

An IT guy bought these computers 1.5 years ago for the engineers, and he bought desktops with the low end graphics card (Quadro 1400). Apparently, there was no engineering input on the purchase. SWX, for all its perks, does crap file size management. Models and drawings easily exceed several meg, where as the previous CAD system, Unigraphics, had smaller file size and was more efficient. The machines did fine on Unigraphics, but not anymore with SWX.

Somebody just has to realize they may have saved a penny on the front end, but now they're not on the backend. I've done a time study and we're easily losing nearly 24-40 minutes a day on this issue.

RE: Justify new workstations

But think of the savings not paying those UG prices!

RE: Justify new workstations

I was being facetious wink

RE: Justify new workstations

The fact that they have switched to a much less expensive CAD package may be indicative of new budgetary restraints (or they may just have realized that they didn't need such powerful software to accomplish what is required).  This may be a consideration in the decision of purchasing new hardware.

RE: Justify new workstations

just be glad you have what you do.  I still remember teaching myself Cad on an IBM PC with 640K ram, no mouse, 20 MB disk drive, version 2.0 DOS, AutoCad version 2.x. and an RGB monitor.  You get really good with the arrow keys...  Still, it beat the pants off tracing on a drafting table with a red pencil and hand drafting with ink on mylar or heaven forbid - Sepia

RE: Justify new workstations

Quote:

An IT guy bought these computers 1.5 years ago for the engineers, and he bought desktops with the low end graphics card (Quadro 1400). Apparently, there was no engineering input on the purchase.

SW doesn't need a "workstation" to run well.  It doesn't use multithreading much, so dual chips don't help.  It will do just as well on a consumer chip as it will on a Xeon.  Clock speed matters most.  Past that you need to make sure you have enough RAM to not tap the HDD.  The graphics card just doesn't matter as much as it did, so unless you see a lot of dragging when spinning a large assy it's not a problem.

The machine you are describing sounds adequate to the task.  At least your IT guy didn't stick you with a gaming card.

Quote:

SWX, for all its perks, does crap file size management. Models and drawings easily exceed several meg, where as the previous CAD system, Unigraphics, had smaller file size and was more efficient. The machines did fine on Unigraphics, but not anymore with SWX.

I agree with this entirely.  I've got both SWX and Pro.  I'm not starting another surface intensive project with SWX.  I love the interface, but SWX is a dog.

I'm in the same boat as you, but the fast machines arn't that much faster.  You'll spend your time and use up your credibility for nothing, because you'll have the same complaints a week after getting the new machines.

-b

RE: Justify new workstations

(OP)

Quote:

You'll spend your time and use up your credibility for nothing, because you'll have the same complaints a week after getting the new machines.
I'm the new guy, I don't have much credit anyway. ;) If I can get the new box AND the networked overhauled, I'm pretty sure I won't complain at least for another year or two.

RE: Justify new workstations

Well, you are up to 3 gig of ram, and you have a decent processor.  If you feel that it is more of just the gfx card, ask for an upgrade to the Quadro FX 4600.  These can be had for around $1700 – about ½ the price of the whole new system.  I would check what your systems have for power.  Nvidia recommends a 750W supply.  Per their acknowledgement (or was it PNY?), this is a conservative estimate.

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