Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
(OP)
An interesting incident happened to me- in talking to my younger, new colleague who was obviously eager to please, I mentioned the previous area of work she was in (similar industry).
Was I suprised when she launched into it and... pulled out the drawings of the design to show me highlighting the "pride and joy" of the ex-company's equipment. And the whole set of her ex-company's drawings is stored in her (my) company desk-top computer.
I only started the conversation as a way to build rapport and had no interest in the her ex-company's designs. I supervise her at work.
Has this ever happened to you. What is a good way to tackle this? Launch into Ethics 101? My curreny company has a lot of propriety information and designs as well, and I dread a repeat of this between her and another competitor in the future...
Was I suprised when she launched into it and... pulled out the drawings of the design to show me highlighting the "pride and joy" of the ex-company's equipment. And the whole set of her ex-company's drawings is stored in her (my) company desk-top computer.
I only started the conversation as a way to build rapport and had no interest in the her ex-company's designs. I supervise her at work.
Has this ever happened to you. What is a good way to tackle this? Launch into Ethics 101? My curreny company has a lot of propriety information and designs as well, and I dread a repeat of this between her and another competitor in the future...





RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Now, there's a big difference in "sharing" common and standard details, and "sharing" drawings that contain, say, the design for the latest and greatest spy plane, satelite, automobile, tech gadget, etc... where disclosure of such information could jepordize competitive advantage of the originating company and possible result in someone having civil and/or criminal charges brought upon him/her.
But if the drawings contain information that is not really "new" in nature, then I wouldn't sweat over it. For example: A design for an office building or industrial facility I would consider nothing special and would have no problem with the drawings getting shared around (assuming these documents are not protected from being distributed of course). But if someone brough over the design for say, a nuclear powered automobile, then I think whoever is sharing this info will find themself in legal trouble soon enough.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Like Senselesssticker I have asked for and have usually been given drawing details. Sometimes with the proviso that they not be used to assist a direct competitor, sometimes not.
The one and only time I switched jobs to go to a competitor, my new boss asked if I had brought drawings from the previous company. I told him I had not, and he proceeded to tell me that had I said yes I would have been fired on the spot. He knew the competiton well enough to know they would never allow any of their drawings to be taken.
code1 ... You should clarify with your new colleague whether permission was given. It should also be pointed out to her that the taking of drawings (without permission) from your company will not be tolerated.
Any company worth their salt should be able to obtain enough details from their competitors products without needing drawings. The drawings would just make it easier.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
There are industries that really don't have that many secrets, and there may not be anything wrong with her having the drawings. But it's worth discussing.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I think that for the sake of your own company, you need to do due diligence to ensure that whatever you are seeing is with the approval and consent of the intellectual property owner, and then allow for some degree of slipage.
I'm sure that when Google hires another person from Microsoft, they'll do more scrutiny to ensure that they avoid getting sued again.
TTFN
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Taking drawings from a previous employer is usually also breaking some terms of most employment contracts. I know that it certainly violated every contract I have signed.
As I have replied elsewhere in Eng-Tips, taking drawings, regardless of how "common knowledge" or "non-spy plane" it is, is wrong. In fact, I am not sure if I want the plans to my building being distributed all over the city. Do I really want everyon to know where the safe is? or the server room? or the executive dining room?
Now, for the calling up an old boss and "asking" for a drawing. That is different. If I ask, and he gives it to me, I am in the free and clear. That, is totally acceptable - and from my experience, very common.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Drawings that are not submitted, are not in the public domain. This includes floor usage plans (non-structural), alternative configurations (eventually not built), etc.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
The other day, a collegue approaches me with "do you happen to have a 2-pipe system piping diagram?" sure, here it is (in CAD).
Without the engineer's portfolios, the owners will lose substantial databases from their workers, and they will be paying with lots of engineering hours in re-designing things over and over (all secrets put aside of course).
And we engineers don't have to work UNPAID overtime to redesign things again for the boss, just because of his secrecy policies.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I guess in the end, you will let your conscience guide you.
What is wrong, is only wrong, if you believe it is wrong.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Oddly, the government and police often have a different perspective
But, I'll have to try that strategy the next time I get pulled over for speeding.
TTFN
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I think part of the problem here is that it’s not just an isolated drawing or part of a drawing but a whole pack. Essentially all (or at least most) of the manufacturing information is there.
I think there needs to be some sort of conversation. Maybe she had permission to have the drawings but showing them to you, a potential competitor, is a lack of judgment if nothing else.
I have had a more senior colleague (not exactly my boss but sort of my mentor) pull out a pack of drawings from a previous employer, as I recall I didn’t’ say anything.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Are you OK with that?
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
And the spreadsheet calculations (not commonly found in articles, handbooks etc) to go with it which gives the company a competitive edge.
But engineering knowledge that is easily accessible, maybe it is all right, if all it takes another company 10 or 100 hours to put together, draw or re-design.
Regards
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I am a bit confused by your answers. For example:
So, it's okay if it only takes another company 10 or 100 hours? Gee, thanks. Please send over all the stuff that it took you less than 10 hours to come up with.
But, if the shoe's on the other foot:
You were rather quick to say no, you didn't think anyone will be okay with that.
What if what she took only requires another company less than 100 hours?
What about 100.5 hours? Or is that not alright?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Let me explain in greater detail.
Ideally, I never expect for one company's property to end up in Company No. 2 just because an employee left the first and joined No. 2.
Personally, I have never disclosed information of a previous employer's when I went on to another job. I have no right taking away any competitive advantages/ know-how they spent resources on. Like you say, I let conscience and integrity guide me. I am always grateful for the education and experience I have received in my employment, and I always part with the management saying: "The door is always open to you". The reality is not everyone will follow my example, hence my being troubled at being shown the information by my colleague.
Now, for the statement 10 or 100 hours, what is meant is: should information taken away by an ex-employee, hopefully is it something that can be relatively easily found in the public domain, be it in engineering journals, handbooks and the like (as measured by the low man hours of 10 or 100 hours- but this is just a figure fr illustrative purposes). Losing propriety information- hopefully never.
In my previous job, the company had lost significant business in parts of Asia when their equipment was (1) reverse engineered and copied, or (2) joint ventures that failed but knowlegde transferred. Now they are: (1) called in for only important and high profile jobs (2) the service engineer comes across copy-cat tools on location. I also had a colleague that the supervisor spend a lot of effort grooming but the crossed over to the other side for more money and a bigger job title, and brought along 3 valuable colleagues with him. Always unfortunate but always true in real life.
Regards
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I think I understand your position.
So long as your employee only takes jobs that cost you about $20,000 or less (100 hours or less), and was not propriety information, it is OK to take those documents, be it drawings, analysis specific to your project, research data for your project, it is OK?
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
It is never OK for employee to take stuff when they leave, unless with the express approval of management. I hope that this clears up any doubts about my stand on this, period.
However, in reality, that is never 100% possible, and we can only the information taken is of insignificant value to the company.
My company recognise this issue and is currently taking steps to ensure that information that should stay in my company stays there. In reality it is never easy.
Regards.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Just for closure, what are you going to do (re-your original question)?
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I have drawings from companies I know no longer work for. The logos, names and other data have been removed from the drawings. Whats left is my original work. I feel I have a right to keep it. I didn't feel like copying it onto a piece of butcher paper, especially when there were copies going out in the trash.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Forward plan:
1. Start on the Ethics 101, but do not want to lecture. Lead by example.
2. Make sure drawings are removed from Company Computer(Liability reasons).
3. Monitor to ensure that present company stuff is protected- not easy task.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
If you had an "employment" contract, chances are that you signed an agreement that all of your work is actually the property of your employer. I have signed many such employment agreements. In addition, all inventions, by defaut, belong to my employer, unless I can prove otherwise that it was developed totally and separately on my own (or was origianlly listed as excluded in the original employment declaration of inventions underway).
If you had an "contractor's" contract, it also usually states the same, except the scope is more narrowly defined, in that it is expected that you also work for other clients too. However, everything you do produce, does belong to the client who is paying.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I doubt if while working for them I invented the starte scheme for a 4160 volt motor, or the differential scheme for line up of switchgear. I more than likely didn't use a different size cable that 199 other engineers would have used.
If they were to sue me I could produce the same designs done by someon 40 years before I did it for the them. Most have been published in books, magazine and in the public domain.
Most engineers spend 95 % of their time doing stuff that's been done before. Originally is seldom needed in a lot of engineering. I like to same examles of routing stuff so I have more time real engineering.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
A similar situation but with a more ethereal type of knowledge:
Imagine that while a employee (with a general confidenciality agreement) of company A, you worked with a supplier that had a very competitive equipment.
You change to company B and you notice that they are considering to buy a worse/more expensive equipment. What do you do? You step in and say that you know someone that has better equipment?
For me, I confess that it would be difficult not to step in and avoid that the company makes a bad choice. What's your oppinion?
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I don't see any conflict of interest in doing so.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Sepcific knowledge, like next years forecast or pricing scheme, is not the employee's to keep. The employee and their new employer may be held liable if that type of knowledge is used.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
you've got two options: 1) lock-down and put up firewalls.
2) run a company where the employees take ownership of their projects. unfortunately, it's hard to leave something you "own". don't lose people to your competition and you'll be all right (Ha!). Remember, nobody is interesting in buying details anymore, it's all the other things an engineering company can bring to the table that counts and gets the repeat business or recommendations.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thieve
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I believe he may have meant thief...
Which is the one who robs, rather that the verb to rob.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
WOW ... a hat-trick! I almost started smoking again after the second one.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
If my job relied on me to spell correctly than I would be unemployable, so sue me....
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
That wasn't an agreement at all, just something you had to do or not work. Such "agreements" offer you nothing and put all the cards in the employers hand. You get the joker. Unions typically have agreements and contracts,. Engineers have something more like an indentured servants contract. Your not even supposed to die without their approval.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Interesting.
We do disagree on a lot of points.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
A star for Integrity.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
i think people here are thinking about people they work or have worked with who have abused the system and are taking it out on you. that you check and post on this forum should say that you consider this issue and have not so obviously disregarded it. negotiation is a two-way process. (insert political joke)
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Signing a document with no intention of upholding your side is wrong. Forcing someone to sign a document is wrong. This is not math, where to wrongs make a right.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Taking personal info of your employer's clients to give to your new employer is a far cry from having a tangible piece of media documenting your 'proprietary thoughts'.
If this were the case what is wrong with me carrying out my client list in my head and cherry pick them for my new empoyer?
Reason: You are directly causing 'harm' to one party to benefit the other. I walk out with how to design pump seals.....whether I have a drawing or not is immaterial my knowledge is coming with me.
I think we have sensitive people on both sides ahere as some posters have likely seen their 'proprietary thoughts' move on to another company without them or have taken those ideas and have benefited because of them.....I'd be bitter too.
Today is gone. Today was fun.
Tomorrow is another one.
Every day, from here to there,
funny things are everywhere.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
The information in the first can easily be located in the British Standard document but our legend has been reorganinsed into a more user friendly format and its easier to use as a reference. The equations used in the second are all available in textbooks but the spreadsheet has labelled cells for all the input values and then a cell containing the formula to feed those inputs into the equation and taking a copy with me would save me the time in re-writing the spreadsheet and would reduce the chance of making a mistake in re-entering the formulae.
So far I have been very much on the fence in this debate. I'm interested to know how the "taking anything with you is wrong" side of the argument would view keeping a copy of the above documents.
This is one of those occasions where a good argument could change someone's mind!
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
After a few years, you figure out the old coot is paranoid and it is time for you to move on. And, you see no technical differences between the generic spreadsheet you created, and the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet".
As I see it, the generic spreadsheet for flow and pressure drop calculations that you came up with is yours to take with you. But the "E-Tips Valve spreadsheet" is off limits.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Like you said, all of that information is available from public sources. What is not available, is the particular form and combination of that data - which, like you said, is worth something to you otherwise, you wouldn't take it.
Yes, taking a little thing here, another "public" thing there, from your employer, is no big deal. And yes, when discovered, no one is going to sue you, get upset or anything. That isn't the point. This is an ethics forum, and the question is one of ethics. Is it ethical?
Put it another way. How do you explain your actions to your 8 year old child that it is okay to take something that doesn't belong to you? Especially, when you have "promised" (which in essence is what a contract is) you wouldn't do it?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
monkeydog (Aerospace) is spot on about E-Tips Valve Company spreadsheet (propriety) and the generic spreadsheet (developed by oneself for oneself's use and selfchecks).
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
I know we've debated the ethics of taking a contact list in this forum before, but I could use another round.
(I'm going to put this in a first-person format for ease of discussion, but in real life I am the client; I don't have clients.)
Once the timeframe of a noncompete agreement has run out, what's the problem with contacting old clients? Am I to stay away from these people for all eternity just because I used to work with them at a previous job? If so, what's the point of having an expiration date on the noncompete?
And how do I distinguish contacts that are "mine" vs. my employer's? There are people that I have contact with at conferences, at committees, etc.; am I truly under obligation to purge my cell phone address book of any and all professional contacts because I got them all, one way or another, under the auspices of work-related or at least employer-funded travel? I need to dump all the phone numbers and collect all the business cards anew the next time I see those same people at the same conferences the following year?
Contact list should be mine. How to use it, on the other hand, should be governed by ethics.
Hg
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RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
Usually all one way.
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19815298/
If you worked for a Defence Contractor, or if you're an inventor type who has worked on ideas in private be careful!
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Colleague "Sharing" Previous Company's Drawings
If you, a defense contractor or inventor, take something that's ITAR controlled out of the US, you've got a different problem altogether, although, the outcome might be somewhat similar. At least, with simple treason, you'd still get to hire a lawyer.
TTFN
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