Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
(OP)
I'm still doing all the research and brushing up my knowledge on chemical conversion coatings, but I want to pass a whacky idea passed the experienced pros to shoot down before I waste too much time on it.
I have some Type II, Class 2, Black per MIL-A-8625 parts that pass the tape test and salt fog test. Upon further processing during product assembly, speckling occurs around portions of the part.
I'm currently conducting experiments to see if processes used during assembly are attacking the anodize, but in the meantime I need to have a Plan B - also known as a rework plan.
Two options:
1) Find a reasonable MIL-Spec paint process. MIL-F-18264 is inactive for new design and also so long-in-the-tooth that no one can certify to it. Does anyone know of other paint processes/specifications?
2) We currently iridite any small scratches in the anodize as we notice them during the assembly process. But, for this particular problem we don't want to have to do it on the production line nor do we want to have to do a 100% screening process. As one of my wild brainstorms, I'm considering batching the entire lot of materials with alodine directly over the anodize in order to save the time and expense of removing the anodize. (If I'm going to take that risk, I'd just re-anodize it.) Any obvious pitfalls for doing a "dip" process (for lack of better terms) of alodine over anodize. I'll have a processor spray or brush on the alodine per the spec, but it would sure be easier to have a tank of chemical and just dunk each part.
I have some Type II, Class 2, Black per MIL-A-8625 parts that pass the tape test and salt fog test. Upon further processing during product assembly, speckling occurs around portions of the part.
I'm currently conducting experiments to see if processes used during assembly are attacking the anodize, but in the meantime I need to have a Plan B - also known as a rework plan.
Two options:
1) Find a reasonable MIL-Spec paint process. MIL-F-18264 is inactive for new design and also so long-in-the-tooth that no one can certify to it. Does anyone know of other paint processes/specifications?
2) We currently iridite any small scratches in the anodize as we notice them during the assembly process. But, for this particular problem we don't want to have to do it on the production line nor do we want to have to do a 100% screening process. As one of my wild brainstorms, I'm considering batching the entire lot of materials with alodine directly over the anodize in order to save the time and expense of removing the anodize. (If I'm going to take that risk, I'd just re-anodize it.) Any obvious pitfalls for doing a "dip" process (for lack of better terms) of alodine over anodize. I'll have a processor spray or brush on the alodine per the spec, but it would sure be easier to have a tank of chemical and just dunk each part.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro





RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Without knowing your requirements, it will be difficult to advise you. Why did you choose to use a conversion coating on top of the anodizing? Is there a problem using standard sealants or organic topcoats for your anodizing?
Regards,
Cory
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Alodine® 1200S (or other chemfilm from QPL-81706) is approved for touch-up of scratches in anodize (up to 5% of the surface unless customer disallows) per MIL-A-8625F. Normally, the scratch or bare contact point is deoxidized with dilute nitric acid, then chem filmed. The deox & chemfilm application is done via Q-tip or artist paintbrush or applicator pen, rather than immersion, as acidic solutions tend to dissolve the anodize. The only benefit to dipping in chemfilm (pH 1.7) is that it will protect bare aluminum exposed through cracks or blisters in the anodize. It's preferable to seal the anodize in near-neutral (pH 5.75) heated 5% sodium dichromate.
For pretreatment of aluminum prior to painting, I suggest either Class 2 chemfilm [(Class 1A is too thick & porous; may debond) and Class 3 is too thin (less corrosion protection)] or dichromate-sealed anodize. Also, use a primer such as MIL-PRF-23377 that will adhere to anodize (with cheaper primers, leave the anodize unsealed for more grip). Chromic acid anodize is generally best for corrosion protection, phosphoric acid anodize gives the best adhesion [see ASTM D1731 for details], but sulfuric acid anodize is most used (except for aircraft).
Class 2 chemfilm has been omitted from MIL-DTL-5541F (formerly MIL-C-5541) but remains in ASTM B449, 'Standard Specification for Chromates on Aluminum.'
http:/
You can specify Alodine® 1200S as pretreatment for painting per Alodine® 1200S per MIL-HDBK-509 CLEANING AND TREATMENT OF ALUMINUM PARTS PRIOR TO PAINTING [spec. apparently written by the Alodine supplier].
http:/
A more comprehensive specification is ASTM D1730, 'Standard Practices for Preparation of Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Surfaces for Painting.'
http://
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
These are warhead bodies that get an explosive material cast into them. The explosive is a hot melt, waxy substance so the bodies are preheated in order to reduce viscosity of the wax during loading.
The finish of the material is a Type II anodize, Class 2 black. That is the FINAL finish for them. But, we have a discrepancy because after loading the explosive fill, white specs appear on the body. Our customer, who is doing the loading themselves, blames a bad anodize. THE ANODIZE IS NOT THE PROBLEM AND I'M RUNNING TESTS TO PROVE IT! But, corporate politics being what they are, I still need to come up with a Plan B in case a rework is required.
For small scratches and similar defects, we alodine with the Q-tip like kenvlach states. But, repairing these warheads after they are loaded (because that's when the "problem" appears) by hand is very time consuming and costly. We want to "fix" the problem before loading and therefore need a process that can handle 15,000 parts.
Because of the loading process we can't paint prior to loading. Dealing with loaded warheads in a paint booth afterwards has its own rewards, but is still an option if nothing better can be worked out.
So here's the problem in the nutshell.
We have a final finished product with all certs and passed all tests including tape test and salt fog.
All the anodize bath data, temperatures, materials, etc. are to spec and within acceptable tolerances.
The anodize looks great on the bodies prior to loading.
SOME bodies get white spots after loading.
Customer blames a bad anodize and will charge us for the rework if I don't prove our innocense.
Customer is not informing us on the details of their process or what detergents are used during cleaning of the spilled explosive material. Why? Probably because if they did we could pinpoint the problem on them and they couldn't back-charge us for the rework.
The good news is, by the time I finish this investigation, eng-tips will have another anodize and conversion coating expert on the forums. I got a pile of MIL and ASTM specs on my desk that would turn a forest into a grassland.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
But can you seal? Immersion sealing (boiling water, chromate solution, etc.) may meet your requirements (improvement at imperfections, immersion process).
Regards,
Cory
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
And since I'm not really worried about coating hardness or wear resistance, nor am I worried about the exact coloring, I can deal with any side effects of sealing if the cost is reasonable. If I remember what I have been reading, corrosion resistance is not degraded by sealing. I just really don't want to issue a change order for something that's not broken.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Regards,
Cory
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
We had similar problem in the past with black died coating. What we have found is that the sealing was done in a lower bath temperature than the spec asks for (90 to 100 Celsius) degrees . When the finished part was put in a higher temperature the anodized coat break and the die fell off the surface exposing white spots on the surface.
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
How can I tell if the anodize is good but the coloring is somehow eskew?
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Some Al alloys, most notably 7075 (also 2024) have Cu-rich intermetallic inclusions ('constituent phases') remaining from the initial solidification that can survive both the wrought processing & solutionizing heat treatment. These intermetallics cause anodizing defects. More obvious when doing hard anodize; can cause pimples & blisters. On Type II, less obvious since the lesser anodize growth into the metal doesn't create enough strain to fracture on its own. Roll a smooth metal cylinder over the anodize surface & see if any pimples pop.
http://www.finishing.com/429/61.shtml
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
To my knowledge - waiting to confirm with the manufacturing on the process details - the rough body shape gets punched and then post machined.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
All anodizing that is dyed must be sealed.
Al 7075 can be anodized by all anodizing processes. Every commercial anodizer that I know does monthly qualification testing of anodized 7075 test panels: Both Type II (sealed) for salt spray & Type III (unsealed) for Taber abrasion testing. 7075 is popular with many anodizers for Type III (Hard anodize), as one can readily grow a coating of 0.004” (can sometime save overmachined material).
http://www.anodizing.org/reference_guide.html
However, there is a material problem of ~micron-sized intermetallic inclusions in this particular piece or batch of Al 7075 which is causing defects in the anodic coating. I studied this extensively in 1997 (SEM, EDS, etc.) & discussed it in 1998 at SUR/FIN with a Bell Textron engineer who had published an article on hard anodizing of 7075 for aerospace. Either you find a clean batch of material (where all the initial solidification phases have been broken up & solutionized by mechanical & thermal processing) or you do this workaround: Shot peen or burnish the 7075 such that the surface metal layer is homogenized. If you are growing Type II anodize of 0.0005”, then the material must be worked to 0.0003”. For hard anodizing 0.002”, the surface must be worked to at least 0.001.”
Ken
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Since this is dealing with a continuation of the same issue, I was to resurrect my thread.
I finally got some time after the regeants arrived to be able to perform the spot test per ASTM B136. We didn't get the blue dye from Sandoz Colors and Chemicals, as it states in the spec, but we did get the same 2LW dye and adjusted it to the proper pH.
In order to verify that I can read a spec, we tried the procedure on same non-anodized aluminum samples. The result, no blue stain. The spec states that to verify the stain I need to get a freshly anodized part that hasn't been sealed. I don't have that available.
1) Shouldn't the procedure stain a non-anodized aluminum? Or is there something with the surface treatment of anodize that makes the dye work? I know I can't get a Sharpy to stain aluminum, but I don't know about the dye especially after I used the nitric acid solution.
2) How obvious is the stain? I have a black anodize with speckling. I'm expecting the speckles to turn blue. Will I also be able to see a stain against the black background?
3) I'm not seeing any staining. That either means that the seal is good, or the operators are bad. I can't seem to prove/disprove either, so any methods would be helpful.
Thanks again.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Keystone Aniline Corp http://www.dyes.com/Default.html
and
U.S. Specialty Color Corporation http://www.usspecialty.com/color.php
The dye stain seal test won't work on bare aluminum (lots of people would skip anodizing if aluminum could be easily colored!).
Unsealed anodize has open pores (like honeycomb, only smaller) which can accept dye molecules. Sealing fills & caps the pores.
Sealing is irrelevant to the origin of the pimple defects in anodized 7075, which are due to non-anodizing intermetallic particles within the alloy. White spots are corrosion due to the acidic electrolyte getting beneath the anodize layer through cracks at the intermetallic particle. These intermetallics aren't the tiny heat treat precipitates which give strength but are residuals from the initial casting and shouldn't be present in wrought material.
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
The anodize passess all tests prior to this heating process. After heating, I can use a paper towel, even a Kimwipe, and rub it across the surface to reveal speckling. No speckling without physical contact so the anodize doesn't just "fall off."
I don't have any metalurgy books. I also can't seem to find a good phase diagram for 7075 aluminum. I can't see 100C having any effect on the aluminum but it appears we are dealing with inclusions within the materials structure that requires a bit more specialization beyond my learnings in college.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Anyhow, the only good a phase diagram might do is convince you to switch to a modern 7000-series alloy with low Fe, Si, Cr. Note that the solubility of Fe in Al at 500 C is only 0.006 wt% whereas 7075 is allowed 0.5%. Impossible to solutionize w/o melting the aluminum matrix. So, need rapid casting procedures to reduce segregation, plus a lot of hot deformation to create the wrought microstructure. The anodizing defects I've only seen in billet material, not stuff that's been extruded.
FYI, some papers: first 2 are both free (along with a lot of other good papers on aluminum alloys), at
http://w
A Microstructural Engineering-Based Approach to 7xxx Series Alloy Optimisation, M.R. Clinch et al.
'Figure 1: The quaternary system Aluminium-Copper-Magnesium-Zinc at 460°C and 6wt.% Zn. The compositions of the two alloys investigated are indicated. [16]'
Reference 16. D.J. Strawbridge, W. Hume-Rothery, A.T. Little, J. Inst. Met., 74, 191, 1948.
Microstructure Property Relationships in a High Strength Al-Zn-Mg-Cu-Zr Alloy, A.K.Mukhopadhyay et al.
“The reason for the selection of the particular Cu and Mg contents of the base alloy is not to allow the undesirable S (Al2CuMg) phase to survive commercial homogenization treatments [4], thereby improving workability as well as avoiding degradation of mechanical properties and SCC resistance of the wrought alloy [3,5].”
Note that Fe in the alloys investigated was 0.06 wt%, unlike 7075 which has 0.5% Fe (max). Likewise, Si was 0.02-0.04% vs. 0.4% (max) in 7075. Also, Cr was left out of all but one alloy investigated.
Two more papers (free abstract, $30 for entire article):
A three-dimensional study of the microstructure of an aluminium alloy as revealed within its thick anodically formed oxide, P. J. E. Forsyth, Materials Letters, Volume 13, Issues 4-5, Pages 184-193 (April 1992).
Abstract
"Most of the microscopically visible constituents in the aluminium alloy Hiduminium 48 have been observed to persist, with unchanged morphology, in the relatively transparent coatings formed by anodic oxidation in a sulphuric acid electrolyte. This has made it possible to study the features of the original microstructure, in three dimensions, using the optical microscope to view detail directly through the top surface of the coating. This internal examination of the distribution of the micro-constituents has been found to be particularly helpful in the assessment of residual “ingotism”. It can also aid the study of machining-induced disturbance of “near surface” microstructure by avoiding the problems presented by section preparation, with the special requirement to preserve the specimen edge. The influence of the disturbed surface layer, as induced by machining or other forms of surface deformation, on both the fatigue and the stress corrosion behaviour of aluminium alloys, is well known. The approach described in this paper should provide a better understanding of the way this disturbance affects these properties."
[Hiduminium 48 is similar to 7010 but with lower Cu so a bit lower strength.]
http://
Some further observations on the various features of aluminium alloy microstructures that are transferred, bodily, into the oxide coating formed by anodising, P. J. E. Forsyth, Materials Letters, Volume 16, Issues 2-3, Pages 113-122 (March 1993).
Abstract
"When anodised in a sulphuric acid electrolyte, many of the microstructural features of aluminium alloys are transferred into the oxide coating so formed. Even with thick coatings these features can be seen, in depth, with the optical microscope, although certain procedures may be required for optimum clarity. Depending on their oxidation characteristics, some micro-constituents appeared in the oxide unchanged, others were convened to a transparent form, and some disappeared entirely to leave cavities. In most cases, particularly where the features within the oxide had characteristic shapes, they could be related back to the original constituent type as seen in the alloy itself. This identification was aided by the three-dimensional viewing capability that gave a direct appreciation of particle morphology and distribution. Magnesium silicide (Mg2Si), when anodised, was converted to a transparent substance that retained its original rounded form. It could be specifically stained, notably with the aniline dye Malachite Green. This provided a useful marker for that constituent's three-dimensional distribution within any microstructure, as none of the other particle species were stained by this reagent. Contrast enhancement by the use of video microscopy proved invaluable, particularly for viewing fine precipitates in suspension within the depths of the oxide."
http://w
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
I can't give you enough stars for all the superb information you have provided. This info, mixed with the research I've done and the testing performed by me and my vendors should be enough to prove to our customer that there is nothing wrong with the processing and our corrective action will have to be
1) Change their pre-heat process or
2) Change raw material.
Thanks again. When I see you around Arizona, USA look me up. I owe you a drink.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
We had an almost identical problem with a customer in the midwest, I am in Indiana. We were getting the same complaints from a customer of ours who is producing warheads for an end customer in Scandanavia.
What we finally found out, and it does go along with the other information provided by the other respondants, is that our clean-up phase of the anodizing process was not as agressive as it should have been due to the tolerancing of the parts.
We processed these parts with due care due to high the tolerance of some of the diameters and threaded nose of the warhead. This means that the cleanup and etch of the parts was held to a minimum so as to minimize metal removal in these areas.
This is, what we believe, was the cause of the white flecks which later showed up during the explosive loading and preheat of the parts. We did not remove the copper inclusions or, the cleanup was not sufficient enough to remove small spots of machining oil that might have been "baked" dry onto the surface of the parts. Either way, when we discussed this with the machine shop producing the parts and decided that a more agressive cleanup was possible on these parts, the problem no longer occurred even after several test runs.
I know this is late but I hope that it helps.
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Strange the connections one can make in the online community.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: Alodine (Iridite) over an Anodize finish
Mike