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Tell the truth or disguise?
3

Tell the truth or disguise?

Tell the truth or disguise?

(OP)
Imagine this hypothesis:
You live in an area with a big shortage of a particular resource, for instance engineers.
You work with a very good engineer with whom, not being exactly your friend, you maintain a cordial relationship.
One day you receive a call from a headhunter trying to get references from this engineer to take him to another job.
What would you do:

-You tell the truth and tell him that he is a very good engineer and risk that he will leave the company leaving a really bad situation to be solved;

-"Protect" the company and paint a "darker" picture in order to have the headhunter loosing its interest?

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Decline or tell the truth.  The truth is one of those brilliant things that can always be derived again on demand.  Untruths need to be remembered.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

So he gave your name as a reference without asking you first?

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

3
Get real.

This is where the old "do unto (for) others as you would have them do unto you." comes in to its own.
(It recognises a human frailty; self interest. Instead of "do the right thing", always a difficult concept to grasp or define or even encourage; under this guidance, you can even go overboard in praise, if that is what you'd like others to do for you.)

And of course, in this and in work the fundamental guiding all your actions should be self first; your interests and your family's. The company comes after.
The company's interests should always come after your own unless you own the company.
If engineers are in short supply, your company needs to protect a vital resource.
Your company, not you.

You may be next on the list and either your company is doing its best to retain engineers (and that means you as well) or it isn't.

If it isn't then you need to know that you will also have access to better jobs and be able to trust your referee's to be honest (or better).

In this scenario, you have overlooked something. References are taken up with consent. The prospective employee nominates his references and should already have spoken to his references before naming them. In other words, this shouldn't be a surprise and your answer should not be in doubt. The engineer should have ensured his references to begin with.


If the company can't hold its engineers then HR or management or both own the problem. It is a problem that affects all the engineers including you. It may suggest that

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

I can only speak for myself. In this case I would politely decline stating "I was not asked to give a reference"

This in itself is a character reference.

Mike

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

In agreement with previous posters, I would only give out reference information about someone who had asked me originally to be one and I agreed.

On occasion, I have had a call from either a Headhunter or HR person about an individual I may have worked with in the past who had perhaps "dropped" my name.  My answer is that I have not been in contact with them for some time and am "out of date" as to their capabilities.  Or perhaps if it is someone I recently worked with I would say that the individual has not talked to me about being a reference and therefore I do not feel comfortable with providing such information or opinion.

In a hot market, occasionally an employer might hire a headhunter to canvas it's own employees in order to check the likelihood of retention or turnover.  If you do decide give an opinion, be honest.  As SomptingGuy indicates, the truth is easier to deal with.

Regards,

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Tell the truth - you may loose credibility if you don't.

If your name where on the list of the headhunters, and your co-worker was asked to give his opinion of you, what would you want him to say?

In the end it is still his choice if he wants to take an offer or not.

Regards
Ralph

Failure seldom stops us, it is the fear for failure that stops us - Jack Lemmon

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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

There is a another good reason to either tell the truth or decline - the possibility of legal action. I have been strongly cautioned by our corporate lawyer to never ever give a bad reference even if it is the truth. Politely refusing to act as a reference is the best thing to do.

Basically, our lawyers indicated in a memo that you are free to give a bad reference and are within your rights to do so. BUT you better be double damn sure that it is based on hard evidence and is not based on personal issues, opinions, discriminatory info, etc. Even then, this can be very risky.

Even if a bad reference is based on fact a civil suit claiming defamation of character can be brought against you on the grounds that the information you gave was bogus and resulted in lost opportunity (i.e. $$). Even if the action doesn't have a legal leg to stand on and is extremely difficult to prove, it can be very costly to deal with.

Your statement ""Protect" the company and paint a "darker" picture in order to have the headhunter loosing its interest" is troubling. To me, this means you will purposely skew the information you give in order to intentionally damage the reputation of the person with the potential employer for the sole purpose of preventing him/her from getting a job.  

IMO this is unprofessional and could constitute slander/libel depending on how this information is communicated.

I hope this really is hypothetical.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Has it really gone that far?  Would someone sue for defamation of character over a reference?  Strewth!

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Sompting - Yes it has gone that far, and not just in the US.  I was told the same thing in the UK before I moved to the US.  

It's for this reason that most requests for references, especially if you were the supervisor, should be transferred immediately to HR, who will usually just confirm the dates the person worked there and their job title, or variations there on.

If it's a peer reference it's maybe a little different but as others say, in this case the person should have asked first if you'd mind being a referee.

I have written references for a couple of the interns that have worked in my department, they were kind of peer references though as I wasn't their supervisor.

In the OP case I'd probably keep it brief while bearing in mind the 'do unto others' idea.  Certainly don't say anything bad but don't go overboard in praise.  For instance I'd probably say "good" or even "competent" not "very good".  I'd then probably go and have a conversation with the person about asking first before using me as a reference.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

I read this in a column for professional musicians: "Never give unsolicited negative references.  Never say negative things about someone that are not true.  It will only look bad for you."

If you are the kind of person that needs any kind of incentive to tell the truth (especially when lying is detrimental to another person), then shame on you.

batHonesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.bat
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

SomptingGuy ... What would you do if you found out that someone had lied about you, or your capabilities, resulting in a detrimental affect on your career? Would you not seek some sort of recompense ... or at least want to have the record set straight?

Headhunters have ways of obtaining names of colleagues/associates of the head they are hunting without being them being referenced by the head. I once had a former colleague contact me and complain that I had not asked his permission to be used as a reference. He had given me a good ref but was disgruntled enough to call me. I had not given his name to anyone and was not even actively job hunting at the time. Turns out the headhunter was just doing her own research for future placements.

Always tell the truth or it will come back to bite you one day when you least expect it.

cheers

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Question to the OP, if you had a better relationship with the person would you even be asking this question?

I've got to admit my knee jerk reaction if it was a friend would be to give a glowing reference without a second thought.

If on the other hand it was someone I'd worked with but wasn't close to then I'd probably think it through more, about how they didn't ask me etc.

Not sure what that says about me!

CBL may have a point to about headhunters doing their own research, perhaps some of us were a bit harsh.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

CBL:

I don't think I'd work for a company that used headhunters to wring references out of current or former colleagues of mine.  I'd more likely put forward my own references after having contacted them beforehand if asked when applying for a new job.

I'm not sure what I'd do if a mysterious black mark appeared on my career record.  I don't think I'd be staight off to find a lawyer though!  Anyway, I thought slander/libel had to be public to be illegal rather than a private disclosure from one person to another.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

"I don't think I'd work for a company that used headhunters to wring references out of current or former colleagues of mine."

...that you know of.

Hg

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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Why would your co-worker provide your name without asking first and letting you know?
Either way, I also agree with other posters, be honest or decline, with the latter being preferable.

In addition, I'd let your co-worker know that you were contacted and declined.  At least if he didn't know about it, he does now; and if he did know, he'll realize that what he did wasn't professional.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Why would it even occur to you to cut your colleague's throat for the benefit of a company that would discard you without a second thought?

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

(OP)
Well guys:
This is just a hypothetical situation. Never happened to me and I hope it never will. Also in my OP I assumed that as CBL pointed out, it was the headhunter making his research and trying to obtain some information and not the co-worker that gave you as a reference without asking permission.
Let make things a little bit more complicated:
Let's imagine that you know that if this engineer leaves to another company his work will go into your desk and in the end it will be you to make double work (at least until they find another engineer).Let's say also that you are above 50 and despite the market is hot for engineers, as we all know, it is much more difficult for a professional above 50 to get another work when compared with one of 35.
In this case, it would be also in your self-interest to retain the engineer in the company, wouldn't you agree?

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

No matter what the scenario, the headhunter should be told the truth about the engineers capabilities. Don't lie. You are an engineer, not a politician. smile

If you were that engineer, would you want someone to prevent you from obtaining a great/better job just because it would temporarily mean more work for them?

The fact you (hypothetically speaking) were not asked for permission is immaterial to the question of whether you should lie or tell the truth. If not being asked annoys you that much, contact the engineer and let them know. If they apologise sincerely, great, no real harm done. If they don't offer an apology, then decline any future calls for refs.

I agree with TheTick, and I'm surprised that a "should I lie or not" question is actually being asked in an ethics forum.
I'm even more surprised at how many responses have been more wrapped up with the not-being-asked aspect rather than the lie/don't lie one.

cheers

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Your inability to summarily reject lying about someone, whatever the provocation or justification, speaks volumes about your own character, I think.

The desire to retain an employee can be met by other means, without resorting to ill-conceived and immoral behavior.

TTFN

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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

(OP)
My friends:
It seems that some of you are taking this too personal. As I already said this is completely hypothetical.
I never refered "lying" but as we all know there are several ways to tell the truth.
And all your answers only confirm what I already knew: that is why most politians are not engineers... There are things that we don't do, even if it is against our immediate interest.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

OK, in your new scenario I'd say you are going to get creamed whatever happens.
You can either give a positive reference or decline, for the reasons others have suggested.
You paint such a picture of this company that as fast as we suggest asking your boss for extra money, a junior to delegate your simple stuff to etc. you're going to tell us, reasonably enough, that the bosses won't do this.
In the end you will be looking at either an 80 hour workload for a poor 40 hour salary, or a job stacking shelves in the supermarket.

What else can we tell you? Life isn't fair? That's a given.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

I always tell the truth.

As an engineer, wansn't there something in the ethics training that we are supposed to always tell the truth? I can't quite remember - might have missed that class.

Anyhoot. Go to your colleague, and ask him if he gave your name as a refernce (some headhunters will ask for a reference even if you were not listed).

If he did give your name as a reference, then you can deal with the headhunter as you wish.

If he did not give your name as a reference, then I would answer the headhunter with "I talked to so and so and he did not give my name as a refence, and I decline your invitation." or the standard "Our company has a policy of only referring all requests for references to the HR department."

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Oddly enough, almost the exact situation happened to me yesterday. I was sitting at my desk, minding my own business when a former boss (not a headhunter), called about a guy from my company who had applied at his company. This guy is not a friend, but is someone I say hello to and chat with occasionally.

My reaction was to put the guy first. I figured he must have a good reason for needing to get a different gig. Talking with the former boss, I found out he wanted to come on as contract, so I believe money was the motivation. I figure, it's my job to tell the truth about the applicant, and it's my superiors' problem to figure out how to keep our companies from trading engineers all the time. Plus, it's different strokes for different folks. . .if the guy isn't satisfied here, no point and prolonging the relationship for both parties.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

MedicneEng ... I don't think anyone's taking this personally or accusing you directly. At least I hope not. You made it quite clear in your opening statement that this was a hypothetical situation.

Quote:

Imagine this hypothesis:

The personal "feel" comes from the use of the term "you" in the replies which, btw, was initiated by the original question;

Quote:

You live in an area ...
You work with ...
... you maintain ...
... you receive a call
What would b[]you[/b] do:

-You tell the truth ...

It's just easier to speak in familiar terms when discussing hypotheticals.

cheers

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

"Let's imagine that you know that if this engineer leaves to another company his work will go into your desk and in the end it will be you to make double work (at least until they find another engineer).Let's say also that you are above 50 and despite the market is hot for engineers, as we all know, it is much more difficult for a professional above 50 to get another work when compared with one of 35.
In this case, it would be also in your self-interest to retain the engineer in the company, wouldn't you agree? "

No!
In this scenario you are hurting someone else for your selfish needs.  That's wrong no matter what.
The other person isn't leaving to spite you and make you work harder, he's leaving because there's a better opportunity elsewhere.

If the additional work were too difficult to deal with, you make a stand to the company, not hurt someone else's chances for change.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

[i]"Imagine a hypothesis:" is on the same shelf with "I have a friend with a problem...".

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Then there's the opposite side--giving a good review of a bad worker in the hopes that someone will take that worker off your hands.

Hg

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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Has any one else noticed (prompted by HgTX's comment) that in this "life isn't fair" world that the worse someone is, be he idler, backstabber, useless lump, Machiavellian intriguer, brownnoser or whatever, the less likely he/she is to be fired, ever. The more likely they are to be promoted, to be able to find a new job at even better money....
The biggest curses in this world are to be clever, to be good at what you do and most damming (especially when spoken by one of the opposite sex) a "nice guy/gal".
Damn.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Honesty is the worst curse.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

If this is truly hypothetical, what's the point of the question?  I can't see that anyone would openly admit to being unethical.

TTFN

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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

(OP)
The point of the question is to assess if in case where self-interest and ethical comes into conflict, as is this case, what prevails.
I am glad to conclude that I am not alone in my original thought.
My position would be similar to most of you guys: decline unless the reference had been given with my authorization.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

An artificial example yields artificial results.

A more realistic scenario might be:

Should you hide a particular medical condition at the start of a new job, since the company's insurance carrier is known to deny coverage for patients with that condition if it's pre-existing.

TTFN

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RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

(OP)
IRStuff:
I tend to agree with you.
Your cenario is much more ethics challenging.
Let's hear the others. What would you do?

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

I doubt hiding the condition and have it appear out of nowhere later on would have a reasonable chance of success, but apart from that, yes I would seriously consider hiding it.

OK kill me now guys for not being ethical, but I don't find it ethical to begin with for a company insurance to not cover people with a certain condition. For me it is de facto discrimination on the job market.

Keep in mind also that in my country everyone has a state health insurance so this scenario for me sounds like another planet.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

A colleague in our US office was offered every much better job with another company and handed his notice in. Before he had worked his notice out his wife was diagnosed with a serious illness.
That meant that under the health plan at his new job she would not be covered but as a previously undiagnosed illness, his existing health care plan did.

He was fortunate that he was allowed to withdraw his notice. Some may think that a natural course of events but suppose he was unable to withdraw his notice (some of us might not be surprised at such an action), could he or should he try and hide this from his new employers?

For me the action he took was not only ethical but the right choice from a practical viewpoint. The risks attendant on an attempt at fraud far outweighed any possible benefits.
However, it is ever a surprise to me that some people will not hesitate to steal or cheat for a few bucks when the risk is they gain a criminal record. I guess some people think they can get away with it and some possibly do but is it worth the risk?

The risk is discovery and not only the loss of health care but the loss of his job and even a criminal prosecution for fraud.
Set against that he can have the health care cover but must remain in the less well paid job; worse, of course, because his employers know he has given his hostage to fortune and is now completely under their control.... better if he had been able to keet the reason for withdrawing his notice a secret from his employer.
It is a tough old world.

Apart from that, I can understand somewhat Epoisses viewpoint. It seems to me that the US health care system is one of the most iniquitous on the planet (unless you live where there is none at all to speak of) and one tends to have sympathy with the US jurors who award such huge punitive damages in any cases they can involving the health care providers, insurers or drugs companies. At some level the abuses of the system by the providers reach a point where one justifies confounding them. The only way bad laws/systems get repealed is when they are resisted strongly enough or flouted blatantly enough that action is taken.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

In Wisconsin, the first paragraph would be  an illegal scenario.  If insurance coverage is continuous, then the condition would not be "preexisting".  It was coverred by one insurance company when discovered, and the next insurance company is obligated to continue coverage.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Admittedly the UK private health insurance market is completely different to the set up in the US but my company recently decided to switch carriers for our health insurance. The stuff that I have seen my doctor about since I started with this company are now deemed "pre-existing" conditions since they were diagnosed before my employers joined the new insurance scheme.

It doesn't bother me because we have the NHS to fall back on and there is nothing expensive in the treatment of the problems diagnosed but the non-continuous nature of the cover seems like something of a scam to me.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?


In the UK, (and I am a business owner), the best scenario regarding references is not to give one, apart from verifiable data such as timekeeping/absenteeism etc.

Otherwise you can be 'done' for misrepresentation of the facts.

I have worked for companies who's company policy was not to give references of any sort.

Also I do not talk on the 'phone to prospective employers of ex staff, just in case they are being recorded!!

Cheers

Harry

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Actually,

You really have no idea who has called you asking about this other person or why. Investigators and snoops sometimes pretext to obtain information about others for whatever reason.

As a matter of ensuring the privacy of others, it's probably best not to disclose anything unless they asked you to be a reference ahead of time.


RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

Most companies don't want you to say anything.  They might be liable.

If you say the person is great:  They get hired but prove to be extremely bad.  You, at ZZZ company, lied about the person to get rid of them.

If you say the person is not good:  The person looking for the job gets PO'd at you, and ZZZ company.

Best response is to just politly respond you are not allowed to respond per company policy.  We can only be a reference to let the 'headhunter' know the person worked for us from date X to date Y.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

If you say "I found xxx really difficult to work with" it could be that you find every man and his dog difficult to work with. Likewise if you say "I loved having xxx around" it could be because you're a sadistic SOB and you loved watching xxx crush the spirits of other co-workers. You're not lying, you're conveying your opinion and what the rest of the world chooses to do with that opinion is entirely down to them!

RE: Tell the truth or disguise?

There was a book floating around about a decade ago that had a bunch of double entendres for this type of question, along the lines of:

"His performance was unbelieveable."

The Oracle at Delphi, of course, was the epitome of this concept.

TTFN

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