HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
(OP)
One of the people in my department has a Latin phrase in his email signature. The phrase is "crede quod habes, et habes", which means "If you believe you have it, you have it".
This person has used this/similar signatures for several years without issue. Recently we have a new HR Manager claiming that he got an internal complaint about the signature, and has asked for this person to change his signature. He claims that everything should be in English, as it makes other people uncomfortable when they don't understand a message. I wonder if I am the only offended by this?
This person has used this/similar signatures for several years without issue. Recently we have a new HR Manager claiming that he got an internal complaint about the signature, and has asked for this person to change his signature. He claims that everything should be in English, as it makes other people uncomfortable when they don't understand a message. I wonder if I am the only offended by this?
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
http://www.swijetty.com
Sea Water Intake and Jetty Construction
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Consequently, the more trivial a complaint, the more attention it will recieve from HR as it only increases the complexitiy of the workplace.....a win, win scenario for HR, bordering on breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Kevin
“Insanity in individuals is something rare, but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule” Nietzsche
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
When I worked in the UK we had staff members who got annoyed by emails from various American colleagues that had religious 'quote of the day' signatures. In the UK such sign offs weren’t common.
The OP gives me an idea though. Perhaps I'll add some fairly obscure differential calculation or some such to my signature, I'm thinking something with grad, div and curl.
I think this would pass the 'in english' test but most people wouldn't have a clue what it meant.
In fact MadMango, I suggest you and all like minded soles in your department add similar mathematical, or perhaps GD&T, notation signatures to stick it to the man!
Reminds me of the 'never p*ss off an engineer' email I saw a while back. The guy was having a dispute with the phone company about his bill so he sent a check/cheque with the amount written out in mathematical notation with exponentials etc.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Regards,
Mike
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Our company uses a very popular software package and we receive tech. updates frequently. The sales/service guy who provides the updates has signatures that usually discuss him being a vegetarian and how eating meat is bad. I've always found this is (pun intented) bad taste.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Hg
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
David
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Vis a vis...quid pro quo...these kinds of phrases are used in everyday conversation.
Sic semper tyrannis! <-----This is a joke.
DaveAtkins
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Veritas vos liberabit....La vérité rend libre..... De waarheid is bevrijdend ..... La verdad te librera....The truth will set you free.
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
I'm hardly fluent in Latin, but it only took me about 3 seconds with a Google search to find the translation. I wish I could speak with whoever it was that was offended enough to report it to HR.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
They should be uncomfortable... with their own mental atrophy. Find a dictionary! Use GoogleTM! Take some initiative and try to understand something new!
If it is wrong to send emails because no one understands and thus is made uncomfortable, it's probably best not to let engineers email anything at all.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
I do not think anyone reported it. HRs are known to try to find things to elaborate on all of their own. They have to!
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Well I guess that could be a valid corporate philosophy, but what I can't stand are companies who first try to attract people by claiming we value diversity, we are looking for independent thinking fresh people, and once you're inside try to hammer you into the universal corporate mould like you're in the army.
Of course there is a fine line between being original and giving people some daily food for thought on one side, and trying to impose a religion or a diet on other people on the other...
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
The notion that anything not in English is inherently offensive (even an email signature that is easily looked up, not some spoken comment that cannot be retrieved) is in itself incredibly offensive.
Hg
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
SomptingGuy, I feel the same as you.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Hg
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Whaddaya mean, "No one implied the email was actually offensive"? The HR complaint had NOTHING to do with consistency across the board and EVERYTHING to do with what is or isn't offensive (i.e., makes people uncomfortable).
If HR had said, "We can't allow non-approved email signatures," that would be about consistency, and whether or not it was in English would be irrelevant. But that's not what they said.
Hg
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Stick it to them with some useful ones from google
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris. - If Caesar were alive, you'd be chained to an oar.
Sona si latine loqueris. - Honk if you speak Latin.
Fac ut gaudeam. - Make my day.
Revelare pecunia! - Show me the money!
damnant quodnon intelligunt - They condemn what they do not understand
Fac ut vivas. - Get a life.
age quod agis - stop bugging me and do what you are doing
Die dulci freure. - Have a nice day.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Doesn't it matter why it isn't an approved signature line, along your line of thinking? If you don't say why, then the "why" isn't bad?
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
FOETS - loved it.
I think I may alternate between "make my day" and "get a life" on my Outlook signature.
Bill
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Non perspirum feces minisculum...
If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Another reason why I dont work work anywhere big enough to have a HR department.
Isnt spanish actually one of the official US languages now? If that is the case then this might count as discrimination.
Whats next, a compulsory heavy makeup job for those with the wrong colour skin because the KKK members in the company are 'offended' by it.
This ignoramous that complained about it should learn to search the internet and use one of the dozens of translation sites available.
csd
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Does that phrase mean, "Don't sweat the small feces"?
DaveAtkins
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Really? Does that mean that they could speak chinese in parlaiment if they wanted to?
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Every once in a while someone tries to get English declared the official language. I think a few cities and towns have adopted it as their official language. I don't believe any states have yet but I could be wrong; it's been a while since I kept track of the English Only movement.
That's not to say there aren't various policies all over the place about document format, including requiring particular languages (including some other than English, depending on the circumstances).
Hg
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
If another employee had a problem with a signature for several years, wouldn't it have surfaced by now?
Some HR people I've experienced would handle this in an exclusionary way. Employees would one day find signature fields not available anymore. Probably including a note not to use them as well. Not that this is right or correct, actually the opposite.
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
They could then sponser remedial courses where we listened repeatedly to chosen speakers until all traces of regional accents disappeared.
Retired English teachers could be brought back into the workforce by having them walk the streets, knuckle rapping rulers in hand,in search of anyone desecrating the language.
Children's games and puzzles can be replaced by sentence diagramming kits and cross-words based on knowing proper homonyms, synonyms and antonyms.
Would any government dare be so controlling? Hummmmm, politicians do like control don't they?
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
My point is: regardless of what language(s) we allow at work or wherever, it's not going to affect how our great-great-grandchildren will speak.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Yes, it does...
If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
It depend on whether you call the American legal system viable, the highest judge gets appointed by politicians!
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
If it is the company's email, then they can control how you use it and how it is to look. If they say no latin signature, then no latin signature. What's the problem?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
I have no problem with corporate policies, especially if they are documented. That was not the problem I was directing attention to. Contrary to what a lurker may glean from reading this thread, I don’t have a problem with HR departments; I believe there are a lot of good ones out there.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
English only rules have been defeated in the Courts since the 1990's, even where safety was cited. In fact, it's discrimiation to limit speech to a particular langauge. It's also not practical, since most of English is derived from another language at some point.
On the flip side, it is rude to speak/write in another language where it is clear the majority do not (or would not) understand that language, unless there is some necessity.
Recent fun example:
I was at a large table at a local Cuban restuarant recently. One individual who was proud of his supposed latino ethnicity began speaking to the waiter in Spanish. There was no need to do this. Normally, one only attempts this when the waiter doesn't speak good English, so it's actually an insult to a waiter that speaks English well enough. In this case, the waiter spoke perfectly fine English. The waiter didn't respond in Spanish and even struggled to understand what the individual was saying. So, this individual made some smug comment to our party about how strange it was that when you speak Spanish to Spanish speaking help, they always respond in English. Of course, I almost spoke up with "They can't because it's rude to the rest of the guesses who do not speak Spanish", but I held my tongue. Here's the punch though, the waiter didn't speak a word of Spanish and wasn't even latino himself. Pretty embarassing. There was spit in someone's food that night.
So, my own position on this is that if the majority of the people are familar with the statements being made (such as common quotes, adopted terms, or quickly translated statements, etc), it doesn't matter. But if the majority wouldn't know what is meant, it is rude.
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
The "Romanes Eunt Domus" graffiti,
the Roman Centurion metamorphosis's into a Latin schoolmaster... corrects the crammer and then: "Now write it out 100 times" (on the wall).
A demonstration of the errors of using Latin and getting it wrong.
ht
http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-08.htm
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
I don't see the point, I guess I must be from Venus. I really don't see what is offensive about, random example, telling the Chinese waiter you like the food in Chinese if you happen to speak a few words, even if the people around you don't. (Of course the guy should not turn out not to be Chinese). Unless it takes a boring half hour, everybody will understand you're having a 2 seconds special moment with the waiter which usually provokes a big smile and makes him feel recognised as a person with an origin, not a faceless serving machine. And hey, it may teach the other people at the table some Chinese if they're interested.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Eventus stultorum magister: Events are the teachers of the stupids
http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Your example actually might offend the Chinese waiter if you pick the wrong dialect to speak to them. I have seen that first hand. :)
What you described isn't rude per se, because a simple phrase like that can be quickly translated if someone asks. This falls in line with what I said.
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
MadMANGO
Probably your HR Manager has on his email signature
the Latin phrase bellow:
Magister mundi sum! - I am the master of the universe!
Cheers
LUIS
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
I thought that the USA had a vote in the 19th century about language and English won......not so?
Bill
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Do some web searching on things like "english as official language" in the USA. You can kill hours reading through all the stories of individual states, counties and even cities trying to get legislation through for an "official" language. It's a bit like an inverse of the law process, where appeals go from bottom to top. If you don't want something imposed on you by your coutry you make your state an exception; then your county; then your town.
Mind you, even here in the UKOGBANI we have at least five languages, plus huge county-to-county swings in dialect. I wonder if there is an "official" UKOGBANI language?
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Yes, you're quite right Sompt
The official means of communication in this sceptred isle is now Bad Language, or so it seems, in any dialect.
Bill
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
The four or five "native" languages do not, so far as I am aware, have the force of law behind them even though they may be recognised and even though some parts of the country have dual language street signs.
In another part of the country the "native" language lost its last native speaker some years ago and the language is being resurrected.
A recent surge of migrants from other **anias (eg Romania, Albania, etc) means that without an already offcially recognised language there will be a problem there too.
Nor is it as simple as either just nglish or Spanish as the two main contending choices; in UKOGBANIA, a school dinner lady was dismissed her post for not speaking Urdu.
East Block languages are suddenly the vogue among local supermarket staff, sea side ice cream parlours and among plumbers etc.
The battle for an official language is likely to be bloody and the main contender could be Polish or Romanian.
Maybe.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Using other languages may have some legitimate purpose. To showcase a person’s heritage. To be inclusive to others. Because it is more natural and understandable for the direct participants in the email discussion. Lots of other possibilities that are relevant when we’re talking about the debate of whether we might allow English-only in a given workplace situation. But none of these applies to Latin IMO because it is no-one’s native language. I think it is a big stretch to include Latin as a part of that debate about English-only work place.
So why does someone intentionally make their business communication more obscure than it needs to be by choosing to express it in a dead language instead of in English?
I suspect that it is perceived as entertaining to slightly encrypt the message by putting it in Latin. Maybe “cutesy” is a better word than entertaining. And what value is added by encoding the message? It makes the sender look a little bit like an insider or an intellectual. What effect on the reader? First he can ignore it... in which case it has added no value. If he notices it, he realizes there is a secret message he doesn’t understand, which is a little distracting. I know that would bother me and I probably would feel compelled to look it up (if not after the first email, certainly after the 10th email). And it may be quite a bit more than 3 seconds. If no internet window open, then you need to open one. When you open internet at my workplace, you first come to the intranet home page. Then you need to enter your user i.d. and password to go to the internet (already up to 15 seconds).
Now, What if I search in yahoo? The first few entries provide no definition. OK, not fair, that’s not a dictionary. So choose a site that is supposed to be a comprehensive dictionary: www.onelook.com.
And the same onelook results no matter whether I select “Find Defintions”, “Find Translations”, or “Search All Dictionaries”!! (I tried all three just wasted more time).
My third choice was google (only because you suggested it... I might not have gone to google if not). And there I found it. But already I have spent more than a minute. Are we supposed to know that google is better for finding obscure Latin phrases? May be obvious to some that spend a lot of time doing it, but not to me .
I guess I could have emailed the sender directly to ask the meaning, but I didn’t know it was going to be so hard to find when I started (who’d of thunk that it wouldn’t be in www.onelook.com). And the response to the email would be delayed, not immediate, requiring my attention yet again at a later time on a subject that has nothing to do with the business purpose of the message.
And what value when I finally find out the translation? “"If you believe you have it, you have it". What are the chances I am going to stop and think to myself: “Boy, that was a witty and enriching phrase... I’m glad I took the time to learn it”? I guess the answer to that question will depend on the reader and his frame of mind at the time.
And if this is a standing signature line... who exactly is the reader? Could be the senders boss, managaer, a manager from another department, VP, the company president? the customers?
And what is the reader’s frame of mind? They are trying to read professional communication in the time crunch of doing business. They weren’t looking to re-examine the philosophical basis of their life or to expand their Latin vocabulary. I’m guessing the chances of eliciting the “Boy that was a witty and enriching phrase....” are quite a bit less than 50% (but again, it’s a matter of opinion).
So, to summarize the above comment, my opinion is in-line with the suggestion from the HR guy that it is not appropriate for this guy to attach the Latin quote to every business email he sends (I’m assuming that it goes with every email because that’s the way most email programs work).
Next subject is whether the HR guy is within his rights to respond as he did. I am pretty sure that there is no company policy specifically addressing Latin signature lines. But are you sure there is not a company policy stating that company email should be professional? I’m pretty sure there is. Does the policy spell out what is professional ? I am pretty sure that the policy will include specific examples of non-professional email (for example sexual, racial, etc), but I am pretty sure that the policy will also state that the examples of unprofessionalim provided are not intended to be an all-inclusive list. And who is to fill in the blanks in the grey area of items not on the list? I am pretty sure that somewhere within the policy structure of your company, supervisors, managers, and HR are empowered to make judgements such as this. If it bothers you so much, why don’t you ask the HR guy what gives him the authority? (I am guessing that he will be able within a short time to point you exactly to the section of the company policty which gives him the authority).
Just my opinion. I will now await the chorus of “you missed the point” comments.
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
SomptingGuy - Your comment is above my head. Can you please clarify it? (By the way, obscure, encoded, enrypted comments are perfectly legitimate on eng-tips IMO.)
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
My view is...
Tag lines and sigs that try to send me a message make me want to puke. Those that are amusing make me smile. Those that are thought-provoking and ultimately amusing really make me smile. I don't care if it takes me a few minutes to look up what they mean - it's time well spent.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Three questions:
1 - Is there a difference in tag-lines for internet/personal communication and business communication?
2 - Is an HR rep within his right to communicate regarding a complain on a business email tag-line which HR concurs in inappropriate? (even if your opinion differs from theirs on what is inappropriate)
3 - How long have you been a t055er ?
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
2. Yes
3. Well, I'm 39 and male.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
As if the perfect, "professional" (whatever that may be) organisation would not need its people to be divers, thought-provoking and not necessarily aligned with the corporate philosophy, otherwise how would the latter be able to evolve? An organisation needs a certain percentage of independent thinkers.
If we all adhered to corporate policies as wheels in the machine without their own personalities and opinions, the organisation would be sterile = infertile. "Shut up and follow the procedure" kills every improvement.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Hold on there chaps. Calling a fellow EngTipser a "to55er" isn't particularly good form, is it?
Self Abuser (closest thing to "to55er" I could find):
Latin - ego probrum
Greek - ????? ??????????? (whatever)
This should be saved for those that really deserve it. Deputy Prime Ministers, for example.
Bill
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
If it is a corporate policy to follow certain industry standards, for instance drawing standards or the corporate interpretation of those, we should ignore it and just create drawings how the heck we like? Or even more seriously codes for things like pressure vessel design etc if invoked by corporate policy should be ignored?
I think I have a problem with that.
Don't get me wrong, as childish and petty (and career limiting) though it may be, I enjoy poking the corporate bear, especially non technical procedures etc. One particularly memorable email to the CEO & CFO of my last place, copied to all recipients of the original email springs to mind. They'd introduced some restrictive travel policy because one of the other board members had decided to go on a trip he'd been told not to! I pointed out the many flaws and inconsistencies of the policy, in the form of asking for clarification, the CFO didn't see the funny side!
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Forever Young
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
So perhaps I should send my 'Statement of Personal Career Achievement and Aspiration' instead.
On second thoughts, I don't want to work for them anyway.....
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
KENAT well I obviously agree with that - industry standards must be followed and sexism, racism and the like are obviously not acceptable in email signatures or anywhere else
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Some minor differences to consider:
1 - CV and resume are easily understood by anyone. "crede quod habes, et habes" is not.
2 - Sending your CV/resume serves a tangible business purpose. A cute latin signature line does not.
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
In my opinion, a foreign language tag adds a little harmless amusement & colour to a bland email, and gently reminds all us English speakers that there's another world out there - quite a big one actually. Other than that, I agree, it's pretty useless.
Not the most serious issue of the day, I would say.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
So what did snowfire say?
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RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
And as far as the signature I believe that manager had right, besides company contact address data or motto, there should be your signature if you are sending company info or correspondence. I am Serbian in origin, so imagine next picture I am sending company 700 million dollar offer to another company. My signature is in that case some Serbian proverb. The guy that receives it is an Albanian and he is company manager... I believe that they would never, ever speak to my company again.
As far as the Latin: if that corespondent does not know Latin he will be offended trust me (i know Latin but most people don't), that gives them feeling of the ignorance and that you are trying to pose superiority of your mind, that gives minuses to your offers because of natural resistance to unknown.
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Also the "English beat German by one vote" story isn't quite true. A vote to *add* German failed by one vote. The U.S. still does NOT have an "official language", just a smattering of various policies (which go in different directions, depending on the circumstances).
h
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
I find that more annoying than some latin sign off, although I'm not a big fan of that either.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
Gulp, I'm not even 30 yet.
What does that make me in 30 odd years when I'm still working, dreaming of retirement.
epoisses, now I'm really depressed.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages
http:
RE: HR Warnings About Foreign Languages