Engineering knowledge loss??
Engineering knowledge loss??
(OP)
Hi all, just a quick ponder...
What is the general consensus regarding the loss of classical engineering knowledge due to the ever increasing reliance on "black box technology". I believe that these very useful tools are exactly that, tools, which should be used by a stressman or designer to aid and quicken their work. Examples of the loss for designers is due to the use of better 3D modelling programs such as catia, a designer no longer has to give sufficient information on a 2D paper drawing to make the part (a big bugbear of mine being a stressman and ex designer long ago).Another example is that Airbus have a black box program to calculate a bolt group analysis,yes a bolt group analysis. Progress with technology is one thing, but are we eroding basic knowledge by automating processes and not allowing new engineers to understand principles and underlying theories behind analysis. Then there is always the FE debate...
What is the general consensus regarding the loss of classical engineering knowledge due to the ever increasing reliance on "black box technology". I believe that these very useful tools are exactly that, tools, which should be used by a stressman or designer to aid and quicken their work. Examples of the loss for designers is due to the use of better 3D modelling programs such as catia, a designer no longer has to give sufficient information on a 2D paper drawing to make the part (a big bugbear of mine being a stressman and ex designer long ago).Another example is that Airbus have a black box program to calculate a bolt group analysis,yes a bolt group analysis. Progress with technology is one thing, but are we eroding basic knowledge by automating processes and not allowing new engineers to understand principles and underlying theories behind analysis. Then there is always the FE debate...





RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Trying to do things by hand for the current level of performance would require substantial abstraction, to the point where you'd have to over design by so much that it wouldn't even be practical.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Excel is awesome for the external loads. Then unit beam method for internal loads.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
You sound like a "veteran" engineer that has found it difficult to keep abreast of current engineering tools. A CAD or FEA application is no better than the person inputing the data and intepreting the results. The CAD/FEA programs are tools just like calculators, drafting machines or slide rules. I'm a mechanical designer and I started out on the drawing board, but I have been using CATIA for the past 12 years and it has improved my productivity 3 or 4 fold. As for putting things on paper, don't your analysts submit stress reports?
Your gripe about Airbus and their use of an automated program to perform such mundane tasks as simple fastener loads, is off base. Airbus likely has a very sound reason for doing this: It guarantees that every analysis is performed the same, regardless of who did it. It's part of the standardized methods and processes encouraged by quality systems like AS9100. I don't agree with everything that standards like AS9100 require, but in this case it seems very logical.
Your designers and analysts should be getting their training BEFORE they are asked to perform their particular function. Or they should under the watchful eye of someone more experienced. So engineers not understanding their tasks is a management issue, not a technology issue.
I must be honest however. Even though I do the bulk of my work in CATIA V5, I still do my initial layout work in a simple 2D CAD system (AutoCAD), since I find it hard (as well as time consuming) to conceptualize things in a parametric, solid modelling environment.
I appreciate your comments.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Even the simplest calculator can do logarithms and transcendental functions. Would you advocate doing sines by Taylor series expansions, or using a table lookup?
Do you want to chop your own wood and build your own cooking fires?
Would you trust your bank's calculation of your balance if your account was maintained by some poor schmuck cranking away with an adding machine?
Every generation makes progress based on the previous generation's progress. Otherwise, we'd still be driving around in horse-drawn buggies. How many of the latest cars can you perform a tuneup on?
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Again, this is anectodal, a gut feel based on repeated observations. It continues to amaze me that anyone could graduate from a university with an engineering degree and not have intimate knowledge of hand structural or fluids analysis. But that's for the employers to address by targeting grads of universities that do emphasize the back of the envelope calculations that used to be standard practice.
and yes, I suppose you could call me an old timer...21 years doing various kinds of engineering (cough...where's my Metamucil?
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
of course, the other danger in black box stress solutions is (and i think this is the OP's point) that users stop thinking about the issues, and the details, and we'll forget why we did things a certain way, and just continue 'cause that's how we've always done it.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Regards
Regards
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
the designs would not be optimal (tho' i doubt that today's are either) and large scale use of composites would drop back, and i suspect that people would want a simplified set of regulations too.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Over 25 years ago - I wrote some of the first structural engineeging computer programs used in the wood roof and floor truss industry... Within a few short years -- there was hardly an truss engineer or designer who could or WOULD still do it by "hand". Took too long.
However -- it gave us the time and energy to take on more radical designs and research alternative designs. It reduced costs to the customer. It cut errors. It allowed us to more accurately produce a true engineered design. Previoulsy, too many times a step was overlooked or forgotten or a number got reversed or doubled or halved... you know how that can happen.
Its a tool - like a hammer. You can use it to drive a nail, whack someone over the head or even split your thumb.
You MUST know how to use it... As mentors - we must take the time and eneregy to train the newbies as they come up.
Don't forget - somebody trained you with the best tools he had at the time....
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
No more. Now, I show up to find chaos. Nobody knows what they are trying to do, much less how.
Typically, the last guy who actually knew what he was doing quit in disgust, or was fired for disagreeing with the pointy- haired boss.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
I'm not in aerospace at the moment and I'm not much of a stress man but when I have interns with stress analysis to do they tend to ask about FEA. I always try and get them to do hand calcs first. It's rare we have anything too complex, mostly earthquake brackets or the like which are easily analyzed with hand calcs. I'll then sometimes let them play with the simple FEA we have included with our CAD to see if the results for their worst case match up.
I only graduated in the 90s but my first thought on stressing was always hand calcs (or maybe excel), in fact my first employer didn’t even have any real organic FEA when I started there.
That said, I’m pretty sure I don’t have the level of knowledge or understanding that many of the more senior guys I worked with probably had at the same point in their career. In fact some of them remembered stuff they’d learnt at school 30+ years ago and hadn’t used much since better than I remembered stuff I’d only learnt maybe 3 years earlier; and most of these guys had come up through apprenticeships not university/college.
Obviously we need to use all the tools available to speed/simplify/enhance the design & analysis process but when using ‘black boxes’ we need to remember the golden rule “Garbage in, Garbage out”. If you don’t understand the basic process then it’s harder to spot the garbage.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
These tools make us more efficient, but at a cost of transparency and thus requires more oversight of how these tools are used and their output. It is not necessarily a loss of knowledge.
jetmaker
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
I am all for using the best and most efficient tools capable, but removing the "garbage" to locate the "pearls" is (or should be) a core competency of our profession.
debodine
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
In order to make a reasonable judgement about what the calculated results should be, you need to have a basic understanding of the principles that are involved in determining them. A good engineer will have a method for roughly estimating these values by hand. If you don't have that capability, then you will likely rely on your computer a great deal to output the correct answer. And if something goes wrong, such as violating an inherent assumption about the allowable range for a given input value to the program, then you will have no way of knowing weather or not the answer you obtained is in the ball park. Sound judgement is an important part of the seasoned engineer's skill set, and younger engineers who lack an understanding of the basic principles behind the programs that they use may have a more difficult time reaching that same level of competence. Let's hope that nobody is injured or killed along the way.
Maui
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
Not so 20 or 30 years ago.
How is it that a bunch of undisciplined CAD/FEA monkeys can produce such statistics? Pure luck?
Nope, the engineers today are as good, if not better, than the engineers of yore. Believe me, I've worked with some older guys that were highly unqualified.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
However, the point in question is that a lot of people new to the industry and within it, simply cannot do simple hand calcs to prove to themselves that their FE is good. The people in the "sign-off" position in a company have a very good background of hand calcs, and when an engineer passes their design/stress report onto their desk, they can immediately home in onto problem areas. Simple FBD of a structural system can reveal major flaws in the design, which is not getting picked up by the "FE monkey" as you put it. As the said engineer cannot do the simple things he/she is unaware that their system is flawed.
Until computers can think for themselves, they are still tools without understanding, if the engineer using the computer has no understanding then it can cause problems.
The situation in another 20 to 30 years may probably be the same as it is now, with even better and more realisitic programs, and with the "FE monkeys" in the "sign-off" positions, who will i hope have learned how to FBD and do the simple things by then.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
I can only give you a perspective based on my personal experiences. I'm 45 years old and have been working in aerospace over 20 years. During those years, some of the most valuable things I've learned were gleaned from guys that had been doing the same job, at the same company, and sometimes on the same program, for literally decades. I learned early on that these guys were more than happy to teach you everything they knew (the type of stuff you don't learn in university), as long as you shut up, paid attention and didn't make the same mistake twice. I spent several years on the Space Shuttle program, and some of the engineering specialists I had at my disposal were the absolute best this country had to offer. When I went to them for help, I was literally in awe listening to them walk me thru a problem.
Sadly though, the large majority of these same (very bright) guys were still cranking out their stress reports/analysis by hand, because they did not want to be bothered to learn a CAD/FEA application. And as I'm sure you're aware, performing an analysis by hand always requires that you simplify the problem as much as possible, to allow you to complete the analysis in a reasonable amount of time. With modern analysis software and processing capability, very little simplification/compromise must be made when performing an analysis.
At the (small)company I'm working with now, most of the engineers are young. They are also, without exception, very good. The owner of the company (an old and very good engineer himself) says he prefers to hire young, inexperienced engineers because they have not learned any prejudices or bad habits, and he can easily teach them to do things the way he prefers. The owner of the company has no clue how to use any of the CAD/FEA software we have, but he also will spare no expense to provide us with most up to date software or hardware we might ask for. He absolutely appreciates the productivity enhancement they provide.
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
RE: Engineering knowledge loss??
This is especially relevant to young student engineers that just want a model to work. They will try, like I am sure many of your have also done when learning FEM modeling, any hack to get the model to work. So personally I believe old hand calculations are still relevant today, so that people without years of experience in FEM modeling can learn from mistakes and hopeful never be put into a position that may kill people in the process.
So with this in mind I think personally young engineers and students like myself, should learn the so called "Grey beards" methods well. They are still relevant to today and can be efficient as a first estimate of a problem and check to finer analysis tools and techniques such as FEM.