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Gen. Y: a rant
23

Gen. Y: a rant

Gen. Y: a rant

(OP)
I'm pretty sure this is not where engineering is going, but what do I know?  Apparently it's where some workplaces are going.

I just heard another news program about the Gen Y'ers (those under 30, in the context of this particular story) and how spoiled they are--sorry, I mean how they need constant praise and reassurance.

Who the hell are these people?  Where the hell are these people?  Okay, one of them is my teenaged baby sister, who feels such a sense of entitlement that she thinks life is not worth living if she has to do anything she doesn't particularly enjoy.  But for the most part, the group described is not deranged high-schoolers, in fact is not that much younger than I am, and none of the people in that age group who work in my office are like that, and neither of my siblings in that age group is like that.

And how do they get away with dictating terms when the economy, for most people, is still in the toilet and jobs are (as in an article cited in another thread in this very forum) disappearing left and right?

Makes me want to quit my job and go around the country smacking their little bottoms.

Hg

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

HgTX - Don't bother with their bottoms - use the 'splainer on their heads for immediate results!

Incidentally - as 'splained to me once by a rural engineering college professor - a 'splainer is usually a healthy 2x4 of a comfortable length that is used when all other means of assistance has failed to get the point across!

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Our parents said the same about us, and their parents said the same about them.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Just as not everyone who grew up in the 60's was a hippy so too not everyone in gen Y follows these stereotypes.

Depend on how the individuals brain works, how they were brought up. e.t.c.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

11
As a GEN-Y'er myself, I will agree that there are indeed (too) many like this.  However, I don't think it is fair to characterize the engineers of my generation like this at all.  

I'm often suprised that the younger generations don't criticize the older ones more often.  The negative effects of the selfish boomer generation seem to get worse by the year.  They have spent the last twenty five years running a country off borrowed money while paying low taxes, and will retire just in time to avoid paying for the war they started, medicare, and social security.  At the same time they are shipping all the white collar jobs overseas, so we will have less money to fix these problems.  

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

It is all related to how you were brought up. For example:

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL:
They won't!

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

regalia,

interesting comments, I think there is more than a bit of truth there.

davefitz,

I think I used to work with those yorkshiremen.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

That's why I gave the man a star!!  Nice post Regalia

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

It doesn't change at all.

Every generation thinks they are the best, and all the world's problem is due to someone else.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

davefitz, to quote Monty Python, "We wisht we 'ad a 'ole in the road."

And regalia, I'm a boomer, but I haven't run a damn thing in my life, about the only thing I bought with borrowed money is my house, haven't shipped a job anywhere, and as for retirement, forget it. Not that I completely disagree with you...

Regards,

Mike

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Said it much nicer than I was going to.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I don't even have a HARLEY

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

5
I am at the tail end of the boomer generation.  From my perspective, each generation tries to improve the quality of life for the next.  This establishes the sense of "entitlement" that we later bemoan as a "problem" with the "ungrateful" succeeding generation(s).  After all, in the long term, what do you tend to appreciate more, something given to you or something that you worked hard to achieve.  It took me a while to realize this while growing up and believe me, I cannot thank my parents enough for what they went through for us as kids.

When the boomers pass away, a great concentration of wealth will take place.  I wonder what the succeeding generation will due with this "gift" or legacy.

regalia I cant help but to chuckle at a few of your comments, they are virtually the same as ones we had while growing up.  Huge government debt, borrowing against SS to pay for a war someone else started (Vietnam), high energy costs, burdensome taxes.  And now people will pay $3 for a cup of coffee without thinking twice.

In about 20 years (or less), the kids of Gen-Y will be bemoaning the actions of their parents.

Regards,

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Ashereng,
r.e:
"Every generation thinks they are the best...."

But one of them must be right!

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

csd72, it IS possible for everybody to be wrong:)

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Gen Y. Gen X.  Boomer.  WW2.  WW1. They all have their fair share of amazing people and rat bastards.

I agree with SnTMan.  No generation is the best, so the question "which gereation is best?" is irrelevant.

The better question to ask is "what happened to personal accountability?".  Somewhere along the generations, the sense of personal accountability was lost, and the world won't get any better until we get it back.    

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I certainly wasn't trying to pick a fight, or imply that one generation is better or worse than another.  I'm simply pointing out we get criticized an awful lot considering that my generation isn't old enough or had enough time/responsibility to really screw up big yet.  

@PSE,

I completely agree with you.  There is a reason my half of Gen Y (1982-1992) are called 'Echo-Boomers'.  Though I hope my generation will fix many of our current problems and learn from the past, it would certainly be my assumption that we will be more similar to our parents than not.  And it does irritate me that people whine whine whine about energy costs and then flock to pay for overpriced coffee (and many other things)--but I suppose that is a different thread.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant


Here’s a pretty good cultural reference for which generation category you may fall into.  The list makes me wonder why the baby boomers are given such a wide range, though.  If you count the 40’s 50’s and 60’s, that’s 30 years!  I don’t think a ‘generation’ should be more than 20.  Culturally, I think 10 year spans work better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Y

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Each generation whether micro or macro must strive to be better or else the society will they are in will vanish.  It's Darwins theory.  The problem is people interfeer in Darwins laws.  Through social programs we try to equalize everyone instead of letting them achieve what they can naturally.  We insist that our own children "can be anything they want", so we get a large group that believe they all can be rich and famous no producers we call "professional atheltes" or "enertainers". So while chaseing the dream jobs they waste the money given to them by the previous generations.  Next we end up with a shortage of ditch diggers and we import them and these outsiders are given the same social idedalisms and they too enter the sprial (downward).

My micro (personal family) generations hasn't done that, all my lineage has achieved what they can with no expectations for success or failure.  My eldest kids however have fallen into the social mutation of "you can be anything" and I supprted that until they were 25, then stopped and they are learning that life is handed to you on a silver platter.  The eldest son woke and is back to reality and doing well (except he embrasses all the social interventions).  

In conclusion, if mankind would stop most social engineering and allow failures.  As for Sadaam, its a classic case of social engineering to counter other social engineering, and finally a third engineeing.  And men and women in Iraq, they are good people doing a job that they selected according to their needs and abilities, from ditch diggers to Doctors, they are doing a job.  If they weren't there, where would they be?  Picking up trash along hiways to passing out medicine to all the illeagles in the US? I'd rather they be there and let the spolied gererations (like me and my kids) to clean up roads and let the illeagle suffer from the flu at home like I do because I won't pay $100 for a visit to the Doctor (and they get it for free).

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Mentions of Darwinism...

If a society that undertakes internal social engineering is better adapted to one that doesn't, it will pervade, so long as it's genetic and that society reproduces.  You cannot defeat evolution.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I always find it amusing that people quote Darwinism is in favour of selfishness (not you SG) - the most succesful animals are very communal. Bees, bacteria, and termites and ants will be here long after we are.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Following from Greg's comment....

Survival of the fittest does not imply that the most physically dominant will survive.....likewise it is nothing to do with selfishness.

Adaption is the key, finding a niche in the chain of life and exploiting your assets over those that wish to usurp you. These are not just the characteristics of domination, they are the characteristics of success. The victors write the history books.

Kevin

“Insanity in individuals is something rare, but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule” Nietzsche

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

caaseopeia,

That article resolves the arguement:

1911 to 1924 was the Greatest Generation.

I will ask my grandmother if that is true!

Regards

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

that'd be apart from WW1, and the Spanish Influenza, and ...

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I think she means those born between those years.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

davidbeach,

Even better evidence, war and plague surviviors, survival of the fittest must have thinned out the ranks of the 'less great' and therefore made it the best generation on average.

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Agree with Greg.
Its a mistake to assume unrestrained self interest will produce the most productive society. My theory is that the current trend toward total self interest as propagated by some of the ultra conservative personalities eventually leads to a reduction in the health of a society. The true answear as with most things human is balence. Neither socialism or capitalistic anarchy will produce success. Society must be a blend. I havent been able to muster much evidence to support this hypothesis except that early societies were communal and prospered. I would love to see the fantasy ultra conservitive society tested somewhere (not where I live) to see if it prospers. If so we can all join the fray, if not we get over this social darwinism nonsense once and for all.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

2dye4,

Australia and the UK are closer to this blend than the US - they have a lower crime rate, lower poverty rate e.t.c. e.t.c. although this type of society is expensive and requires higher taxes to be maintained.

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

It seems to me that through generations there is a repetitive cycle. The older generation feels that the new generation is needy and has fewer obstacles to succeed. Where as the boomers  feel as if they paved the road for us. And I'm sure the gen. before the boomers would state the same issue.

I am quite possibly the youngest member on these forums. Born in 1987, seen more terror in this short lifetime than most people have seen their whole lives. Like regalia stated, I didn't send my friends to war, I didn't raise taxes, I didn't cause this failure in the social security system. Someone older than I decided for me.

You can complain that we need emotional support and we need things made easier, but I'm going to be the person that will fix or suffer from the problems you caused in my world.

1985-2000 was a great time of prosperity in America, lucky you.

On my first day of High School I was locked in a classroom because terrorists felt the need to cause harm to our country.  

The world will go through a dramatic change in the next 10-15 years. Imagine your daily routine right now, remember it, it will be totally different in this short period of time. Fear took over our country, there is no strength in our country, ask me again, why do I need emotional support?

Joe
Project Engineer

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

The more a society becomes democratic, the wose it will become.  Given the choice to vote on everything, people will vote for themselves and hence vote for more freebies in life and once everybody is entitled to have everything nobody gets anything new or better because we can not mass produce 300 million new diamond watches we are entitled too because voted to have them.  Could you imagine running a large company whereby all the workers voted on everything?

So GenY (as the conversation between Batman and the Joker goes), "you made me the way I am", "yeah, but you made me first".

The conservatives are NOT self interest types, they want the status quo (CONSERVATIVE) which means no more entitlements (In CA, the voters have decided that feeling transgendered is a birth defect and CA will pay for having a sex change operation!!).  csd72 said it, more entitlements, more taxes and the less anyone really has.

Do you really think a society can get ahead with 35 hour work weeks, 8 weeks vacation and free medical?  Hummm China is the fastest growing place and they have none of these. Is France's economy on fire? Compare the above to their society.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

dcasto,

It depends whether the society values 'quality of life' or the almighty economy. The economy is a tool for society to prosper, not the other way around.

The french tend to value quality of life over all else, hence the 35 hour weeks and 5 weeks holidays. The american system is more pro business.

Each to their own.

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

(OP)
Those who went through WWII as civilians in Europe don't seem to have come through that with a need for extra emotional support...

Hg

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

so, csd72, all generations place their values different, hence, each generation always does better than the rest because they end up where they wanted to be.  

There is NO MEASUREMENT STANDARD so we all win.  Yeah, from now on at the olympics, everyone gets a gold medal thats says "First Place for TRYING hard".  I remember when the schools stopped giving place ribbons and went there too.

Lets all just go home and drink French wine and value that tooo......

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

35 hours working weeks are out of fashion since Sarkozy... the motto is work more to gain more!

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Recently recieved from a friend.  It struck me as to how much (at least in the US), freedom has been given up over the years already.  The younger generations do not know how much they have already lost as they are used to the current state of affairs.

Scenario: Jack pulls into school parking lot with rifle in gun rack.

1973 - Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's rifle, goes to his car and gets his own rifle to show Jack.

2006 - School goes into lockdown, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.

1973 - Crowd gathers Mark wins . Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.

2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1973 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by Principal. Jeffrey sits still in class.

2006 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his father's car and his Dad gives him a whipping.

1973 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2006 - Billy's Dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. Billy's sister is told by state psychologist that she remembers being abused herself and their Dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some headache medicine to school.

1973 - Mark shares headache medicine with Principal out on the smoking dock.

2006 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.

1973: Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.

2006: Pedro's cause is taken up by state progressive political party. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he can't speak English.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.

1973 - Ants die.

2006 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary, hugs him to comfort him.

1973 - In a short time Johnny feels better and goes on playing.

2006 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison.

All in the name of progress!

Enjoy your day.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

PSE - like your scenarios.  I remember (back in 1962) when we were in elementary school and two lads would start a fight over something now judged inane - but the rest of us would look at each other, pick two captains and divide into two teams and we'd all start fighting.  Great fun.  Teachers just smiled - it was just that way at that time.

By the way - I've looked up the Kipling quotation and it goes like:
   "If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied."

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Unfortunately you post is very accurate, PSE.  Kids today will never experience many of the things we took for granted.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

(OP)
The "good old days" are always gooder in some ways and badder in others.  I agree that there is a whole lot of crap these days.  But consider the following:

Johnny's dad is driving the family convertible.  Johnny's mom is in the passenger seat with Johnny's baby sister Mary in her arms.  Johnny is in the back seat.  Johnny's dad swerves to avoid something, loses control of the car, and they crash.

1973:  Seatbelts are still a new idea, and everyone is thrown from the car and dies.

2006:  Thanks to those oppressive seat belt laws that take away personal freedom, everyone is buckled in, and the baby is in a carseat.  They walk away.

Hg

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

It is quite exaggerated, but in spirit it seems correct.

Too many lawyers in society, too many in congress.

I read a very good email once, titles "Remember Accidents" It starts off saying something like "Remember when, if you tripped over something in the street and you fell over, you just went home and got patched up, nobody got sued because it was nobodies fault it was just and accident..."

Rights should always be balanced by responsibilities, they are two sides of the same coin. Society has forgotten that.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

PSE,

I've got to say, your examples (okay, I know they aren't your examples) don't do much to convince it those were the good old days.  The 2006 scenarios stray far into hyperbole and, frankly, the 1973 ones sound pretty bad to me as well.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

(OP)
The problem isn't that Kids Today aren't taught responsibility, but that the decisionmakers have abdicated it.  "Zero tolerance" rules in schools are everyone's favorite example, and they do exist, and they do have stupid consequences, like a kid suspended for having aspirin.  I know a kid who was expelled because she borrowed her mom's sweater and there was a pair of sharp nail scissors in the pocket.  My sister has "terroristic acts" on her record because she said she wanted to rip another kid's guts out.  

It's crap.  But it doesn't mean I want a return to 1973, when drunk driving was acceptable, physical abuse of spouse and offspring (and I don't mean just a spanking) was no one else's business, and soft contact lenses hadn't been invented yet.

Today's stupid laws may be stupid but they're intended to solve real problems.  You got a better way to solve the problems, other than pretending they never were problems, you become an activist and get things changed.

Hg

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Unless your name is Paris, then anything goes, no consequences either...

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Seems like good intentions pave a road to somewhere...

Nice post PSE.  Personal culpability doesn't seem to have much value with the majority of the people when it comes time to put their money where their mouth is.  In the mean time it's easy to run your mouth and talk about having responsibility this and that, but what do they end up doing when they go home, or no one is watching?  It's like complaining about rubberneckers.  If you asked everyone stuck in the slow lane, not a single one would admit to being the one who slowed down just to look.  If you could stand back and watch, you'd find a different story.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Over the weekend, I spent some time with the in-laws and have a nephew that was doing some of his first work in woodshop at school and had completed his project.  He was then selected by the teacher to try out the lathe as the teacher was considering making it available if the students could be safe with it.  My nephew wanted to make a baseball bat.  He ended up either having to be escorted through the building with his project or picked up/dropped off at the shop door as according to school policy, it constituted a weapon.  

Perhaps I was naive growing up but I do not think either I or any of my schoolmates would have even considered using a bat on someone.  We were allowed to use the playground(s) unsupervised.  Now they are considered unsafe places with potential stalkers everywhere and we keep our kids safe at home.  Perhaps this isolation only makes things worse.

HgTX I agree that the "good old days" were not always better.  Also that we have, through law, "abdicated" personal responsibility and accountability with subsequent loss of some freedoms.  I remember the introduction of seatbelts and it was my parents, not the law that mandated their usage.

Regards,

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

PSE--
Hah!  While I was in wood shop (1960's) I built the core mould for a friend who manufactured pyrotechnics and who wanted to make 1.5" skyrockets.  I restocked an old rifle, bringing it to school for the work, and I did repairs to the wing spar of an airplane.

I doubt that any of these projects would get a chance in today's scholastic environment.

Our high school chemistry teacher routinely punctuated demonstrations with noxious gases and small amounts of energetic chemicals.  Today he'd be led off in handcuffs.  In 1965 he piqued the interests of several of his students into careers in engineering and technology.

I fear that today's educational environment does little to encourage the adventurism among students who we will expect to make the technologies work for us in the future.

old field guy

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

oldfieldguy,

And you came out alright, survived with most of your fingers and at least half you brain cells (we only use 10% of them anyhow).LOL

Maybe this is why young Americans dont seem to be any good at lateral thinking. e.g - if I ask for a return ticket at the station, they have no idea what I mean even though there is only one thing it could mean.

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

(OP)
unsupervised playgrounds...let's not forget the demise of the Trick Or Treat tradition, even though there are no documented cases of kids being poisoned by candy their neighbors tampered with.  That's not the decision of Irresponsible Kids Today, that's the decision of people y'all's age.

But back to the OR (original rant), now we have a couple of college kids working here for the summer, and they do seem to be exemplars of what those who complain about Kids Today are complaining about.  They each had to be sat down and informed that yes, in fact, they do have to complete the tasks assigned to them, and no, it's not okay to hide so that no one can bring them tasks.  Sigh.

Reminds me of these "life skills" classes where they teach people that yes, you do have to show up to your job every day that you are scheduled to do so.  How on earth would it occur to someone that they would still be able to collect a full paycheck if they didn't?  And yet we had to let a temp go for exactly this reason.  And she was closer to baby boomer age than Gen. Y.  Maybe there are idiots in every generation but we focus on the young ones to assign blame to their whole age group.

I seem not to have a cohesive point here.  I apologize, but not too sincerely.

Hg

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

"They each had to be sat down and informed that yes, in fact, they do have to complete the tasks assigned to them, and no, it's not okay to hide so that no one can bring them tasks."

This is the kind of thing that Kids Today are supposed to be taught in Life Skills class at the age of, say, 2, by "people y'all's age".

Advanced Life Skills (at 3) teaches kids not to complain when tasks assigned to them (within reasonable limits).

Life Skills University (from 4 to 99) goes even further and teaches setting the table and doing the dishes spontaneously. Only few people get their degree.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Good points by PSE.

I would also say the smaller the town the later the transition period. Even in the late 70's, early 80's alot of the earlier dated points were true.

The question I've always wondered was why the transition?

The people that were kids in the early 70's are now the ones making alot of the rules that led to the situation we are in now.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I was a kid in the early 70's. We're not making any rules! The folks who were just gaining power then and who have it now all came of age in the 1960's. The lawsuits against teachers were starting in the 1970's, and we had teachers who were hippies. They're all pushing 60 right now and, man, do they not want to give up a thing.

Thusly, as one of the "forgotten Gen" - mostly people born in 1963, I'm between the ex-hippies who run the country and all the big corporations and the super-fast hard chargers who can't recall when vinyl records were sold in stores.

"Makes me want to quit my job and go around the country smacking their little bottoms."

I'd take a job smacking little bottoms, too - but only if I get to pick the bottoms first.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

The newer generations have replaced common sense with rules or zero tolerance.  I see where there is a new push to replace zero tolerance with more common sense or looking into the facts, circumstances, and intent......

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I doubt that it is Gen Y pushing rules and ZT. I rather think that the older generations are pushing those in reaction to the challenge to their authority that the  Gen Yers present.

After all, if you have no moral authority, how do you get kids to do what you want? You make it a rule and then blame 'them', the invisible hand of authority.

When I was a 24 year old engineer, once a month I had to sit down in front of some fearsome old bastard (hi Phil, Alan) and tell him what I'd been up to. The company I work for now has found no useful way of maintaining that tradition, and, to be completely honest, neither have I.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

what, no fearsome old bastards available in your company? could you play the role yourself? big smile

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Yeah that's what I meant. I am part of the problem.

Why would a pushy young graduate on the path to management waste an afternoon with me, trying to remember all the hard bits he left out at uni? As an example the company says scoring 81% in a multiguess test is all you need to prove that you 'understand' statistics... to the point where I've had two black belt six sigmas come and ask me why they can't answer a particular problem on that test.

Oh, I said, yes that one is a bit early in the test, you haven't actually got to the page in the cheat sheet that tells you how to answer it.

Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but hey.



Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Gen. Y: a rant

It is a rare thing for me to meet a fellow >10 years younger than I that really knows his fundamentals.  Thank the Lord for a generous factor of safety.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

3
When I came into the profession, I was taught by bluddy scots and tuff yorkshiremen how to do calculations by hand, in the days of slide rules. It were 'ard. But I learned a lot about the difference between clever and smart.

Stuff grads learn today are clever but they are not smart. They come into the profession desperate for knowledge, experience and smartness. We have let them down badly. I spend a lot of my time with the Gen Y, find them enthusiastic, willing to listen, showing them examples, ( the good, the bad and the ugly)so they can judge the wisdom of the old boys.

My generation were caught with dropped pants when desktop computers arrived for good and we haven't learned to pull them up since. Pre-windows computers (mainframe, basic and Fortran)was the age of engineering, we put man on the moon, built nuclear power stations, military specs and the banking industry was built on this... but when Bill Gates sold his stuff to a couple of secretaries, we fossilised and froze in the headlights of the future.

I have worked worldwide and am amazed at the global indifferences to the needs of the younger generation. All great work begins with a blank piece of paper and a couple of simple engineering rules,
 - draw it out
 - keep it simple
 - Build the concept
 - Identify the problem
 - identify the principle action
 - define your solution
then use the computer to verify your judgment

Too many leap into the software, copy past examples (even if they are bad), work in isolation, don't ask questions and cannot justify what they are doing.

I believe we need to think about how to agree a common platform for engineering design regardless of experience or generation. We need to define the minimum standard of calculations (then drawings) to ensure we maintain the wisdom of the past masters and pass on the tools of our craft to the innovators of the future. We are strangling our profession with moans and depressing habits. I understand it but let's move on from the past, we are the seeds of the future.

It is a fantastic time to be in the profession, or at least it should be.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Good points rtmote,

In this fast track world we are used to instant gratification. In the same manner we often expect graduates to be instantly able to design a building.

A university can teach students engineering fundamentals but cannot teach them how to be engineers, no amount of education can do that. They need carefully supervised experience and on the job training in order to become good engineers.

They talk about teaching management to students at university when they probably should be teaching more fundamentals. In the last 10 years I have forgotten everything from university that I havent used, particularly the management bits.

csd

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

rtmote, nice post.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

I believe the best way to become a good engineer is to be enthusiasic, eager, and a good listener to the older generations of engineers.

I have been fortunate enough to work with some great ones and I only began to consider myself an engineer after years learing from them. I guess that is why you can only get a PE after 4-5 years.

Thanks to all of the great mentors out there teaching the trade!

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

Listening, learning and questioning are some of the things all engineers should be doing regardless of age or generation.  I still get enthusiastic and eager when working on some projects especially if they allow me to stretch my talents a bit.  Common ground perhaps for engineers of all generations.

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

It depends a lot on the country you are speaking about. In Spain, my parents have never shared their flat. I lived in the same apartment with people from the UK, Portugal, Greece, Argentina, Uruguai, Venezuela, India, Pakistan and China. Now I live with two fantastic Palestinians (If I had a flatmate from Israel this would be much interesting than the United Nations).

What is more, my parents never had foreign friends. I proudly have good friends in three different continents.

My generation is not better or worse than the previous one but I am afraid we are more open minded due to the globalisation. And engineering is also about global problems, isn't it?

http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com

RE: Gen. Y: a rant


good article.  All they need to add is sanctimonious and judgmental.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Gen. Y: a rant

"I always find it amusing that people quote Darwinism is in favour of selfishness (not you SG) - the most succesful animals are very communal. Bees, bacteria, and termites and ants will be here long after we are. "

This works when all members of the community contribute to the success of said community.  There are a fair number of non-contributing members of this (human) society that make this idea challenging. I recall reading about animal behavior in that non-contributors were allowed to stave and ultimately die unless they were producers.

--
Erik
MO P.E.

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