title block template = controlled document?
title block template = controlled document?
(OP)
Not sure if this is the right place to ask but here goes anyway.
I work for a company that is ISO 9001:2000 certified so document control is a big deal. All of our standards/work instruction/etc are controlled according to our ISO system.
Our title block is not currently a controlled document. So our template/title block can be changed without revision. Of course the main template is on the network and is read-only so it cannot be changed easily but it can be modified after a new drawing is created.
I am not sure if it is worth it to control the format of the title block within our document control system or not. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Thanks in advance for your help!
JBK
I work for a company that is ISO 9001:2000 certified so document control is a big deal. All of our standards/work instruction/etc are controlled according to our ISO system.
Our title block is not currently a controlled document. So our template/title block can be changed without revision. Of course the main template is on the network and is read-only so it cannot be changed easily but it can be modified after a new drawing is created.
I am not sure if it is worth it to control the format of the title block within our document control system or not. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Thanks in advance for your help!
JBK





RE: title block template = controlled document?
And don't forget about your continuation sheets - the ones with the title block less signature fields.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Chris
SolidWorks 07 3.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)
RE: title block template = controlled document?
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RE: title block template = controlled document?
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: title block template = controlled document?
I would have posted this as a separate question but I think in the context of the thread it makes more sense to ask it here.
Our QA department claims that if the title block is a controlled form, every time we make a revision to it (rarely) we have to update every drawing we have to reflect this.
To me this doesn't make sense but maybe I am wrong again. I especially have a problem with this if something in the title block changes that could impact design (revised ASME Y14.5 standard for instance). Do we have to go through all of our drawings and revise our designs because a change to the title block was forced? I contend that old drawings can retain the title blocks they were originally placed on.
So if the title block is a controlled form and a revision is made to the title block, do all drawings have to be updated to reflect this?
Thanks again for all of your help. It is appreciated!
RE: title block template = controlled document?
A drawing title block/ProE format is no different. In general a title block contains information that a customer/dealer/end user will require (tolerences, business address, etc). If these change and it impacts on anyone outside the company and they decide to introduce the change, then revision control is the only way that the information can be safely transferred to the required end point.
(I know it seems a tad retentive when it comes to something as mundane as a title block, but with ISO its all for one and one for all)
Kevin
“Insanity in individuals is something rare, but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule” Nietzsche
RE: title block template = controlled document?
RE: title block template = controlled document?
On your ECO, you should have not only an effectivity field, but also a disposition field. The disposition is typically a choice of 3: use as is, rework, scrap.
Obviously, scrap doesn't apply so you can either check rework - which means you will change every single drawing to update the title block, or use as is - which means you don't have to change any existing title blocks in your library. So you check use as is and you're done.
But of course you inevitably WANT to update the title block. Since the ECO doesn't force you to do this, you can do it whenever you choose to, like ewh does, when the drawing is undergoing a revision for another change. You can do this per ASME standards. Check ASME Y14.100, if it's not that one, it will point you to the right spec, to look up drawing revisions and when you can to a total redraw of an existing drawing. Or, when revising the drawing for another change, just include the line "updated title block to current standards" as a line-item change in the ECO.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: title block template = controlled document?
With that said, I will repeat that is my recommendation that it be a controlled document.
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: title block template = controlled document?
So consider this; we have a template (ISO form) for our work instructions that is filled out as required. Our work instructions number in the thousands at this point. If the work instruction template/form is EVER updated every single work instruction must also be updated. Even work instruction for components we no longer manufacture. So they copy and paste thousands of Word documents back and forth, print out reams of paper copies (we are not yet paperless to my dismay), fill out distribution forms, and file them all.
They have done this just because of misspellings (multiple times I might add)!
So I asked them if they revised all of our old completed ECO/ECR/ECN documents every time these forms are revised. At that point the QA machine ground to a halt. GRRRR.
To me this is busy work just for the sake of busy work (money down the toilet). I totally agree that the template/form should be updated as revisions are made to a document but this is nuts. No wonder the QA folks complain about not having enough time to check parts.
Here ends the off topic rant.
So I give up. There is no freakin way I am going to revise a couple thousand drawings (including old hand drawings, and legacy CAD drawings) because we want to update the title block. We will change it and leave it out of the ISO monster they have created and hope that in the future someone with reason sees the light. This is a shame because I think the title block should be controlled via ISO but the system as is is SNAFU.
Thank you all for your help!
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Chris
SolidWorks 07 3.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)
RE: title block template = controlled document?
RE: title block template = controlled document?
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: title block template = controlled document?
RE: title block template = controlled document?
I would venture to guess that the Quality Dept you refer to is not aware of how ISO works. There is no reason to go back and update already released documents since those where released by what was then the standard. It is actually bad practice to change forms wholesale since the new changes may not be compatitable with the document as it was original released. It sounds like someone just wants to be tiny without regard to what is best for the business. I can't imagine the procedure actually says to do this either.
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: title block template = controlled document?
To be honest I would be surprised if there was a hard and fast procedure, this is unfortunately typical. The QA folks tell me it is "to confusing to the people on the floor" to have a form revision and a revision on the document itself. Even when these fields are labeled "form revision" and "drawing revision" and the form revision label and text is significantly smaller. Gah! I am foaming at the mouth!
The kicker here is that we are referencing the latest ASME Y14.5 standard in the proposed title block. In the previous title block the last revision of the ASME standard is referenced. Hell, Some of the older hand drawings are straight from Germany and use the ISO standard. So if we change the title block on all drawings, in some cases we might be changing the design intent. But they do not agree with this either!
Ok, seriously, I think I am having a stroke at this point.
So I think your advice to let the situation settle so that cooler heads (and maybe some reason) prevail is my best bet. I am far to worked up about it at this point to do anything but get myself in deep you-know-what (wouldn't be the first time).
I think my best bet is to work on the economics of the situation, if this goes higher up I am going to sell the bean counters so I need the dollars and cents (not sense thank you very much).
Thanks to all for your help. Who knows what will happen with this mess.
"They can conquer who believe they can" - Virgil
RE: title block template = controlled document?
According to what you indicate, your ISO documentation states that if a form changes, all documents using that form require updating. Quite a bit of work. Your loophole is that it is unlikely that the ISO document controlling forms probably does not indicate the time frame by which updating all the documents must be completed.
From my point of view, I would let the format changes sit off to the side as long as there is value work to be done. "Perhaps" the format updates could be fit in during a lull period.
Regards,
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Pretty much all it does is ensure you follow the procedures laid out in the manual, amendments are perfectly acceptable.
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Peter Stockhausen
Pollak Switching Products
RE: title block template = controlled document?
The format of the title block is not automatically changed, it must be manually changed in our system. So existing drawings must be revised to change the title block as you indicate Peter. New drawings would by default have the new title block.
The problem is that we are IMO trying to do the right thing by making the title block a controlled form and the QA department is forcing wasteful ISO practices on us for document/form revisions (which they are unwilling to change). I personally think they like to create ISO busy work to avoid checking parts.
They gave us the option of leaving the title block out of the ISO system so that is what we are going to do short term. Long term, I am going to bring this up at the next management review meeting and see what happens. Should give me enough time to get my ducks in a row.
RE: title block template = controlled document?
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Just be clear that it's not an ISO requirement which they are trying to enforce. I wouldn't even call it ISO. Charactorize as internal requirements not derived from ISO.
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: title block template = controlled document?
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
RE: title block template = controlled document?
RE: title block template = controlled document?
Change to the format did not require us to change every drawing. For the most part we didnt' even update the format when we went up a rev, especially for the older 'hard copy' drawings not on CAD.
Also we 'held' drawings from various military establishments that weren't even on our own format.
Sounds like QA are making a meal of things.