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How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?
2

How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

(OP)
I have a question directed mostly at native english speakers, but I'll appreciate all feedback...

I've been communicating with some Italian and Spanish engineers who speak/write understandable but horrible English, without any problem. While I was highly irritated, they didn't seem to have any issues or even percieve it as a problem, that I have to spend an hour trying to make out "what the poet meant to say".
On the other hand, I communicated with some Russian engineers who took great care about their English language being correct, and some Austrians who simply sent stuff in German rather than in, as they said, "faulty English". This caused me to go and start learning German, as we needed outside help to get the info.  

Which would you prefer? Is having grammatically correct communication from foreign colleagues a big deal to you? Do you think less of colleagues who speak/write in grammatically incorrect form, even if the content is valid? (Providing eng isn't their 1st language).

I am asking because English is my 2nd language, and German my 3rd.  While I'm capable of being very correct in English, my German isn't all that good. I'm unsure whether to stick to English or try and communicate in German in spite of grammar issues?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

If you don't speak Italian or Spanish then getting info in a language you do speak, mangled though it may be, would seem to be most useful. I would think that would be a better alternative to having to hire outside help to translate.
On the rare occasion that I do receive info in English, that has been written by someone who isn't a native English speaker, I appreciate their efforts and don't mind taking the little bit of extra time to decipher what they're trying to convey.

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
CAD Administrator
SW '07 SP2.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

There was this running joke last time I was in China:

How do you tell the Germans from the Americans?  The Germans all speak perfect English.

Doesn't account for the Austrians, though.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?


TheTick - quite right about the Germans-v-Americans.
I hear bods talking in TLA (Three Letter Acronyms) and techno-gibber all day long and I'm pretty sure a decent proportion of them don't understand what they're on about.
It also drives me crazy when they start writing that way as well. Grrr....

Do you read Bill Bryson's books?
Re - Austrians, I am reminded of his story about travelling in Europe with his friend, Katz. They met a couple of Germans on the way and spent a few days together.

They were hiking through Austria and had to hastily leave a beer house one evening when the other customers turned nasty and the local policeman proved to be among their number.
Having made good their escape, they returned to their campsite and, as the weather was so good, they decided to sleep under the stars.
Laying out in the open, I believe it was Katz that said:
"Well, Austria sure is a beautiful country."
"Yes" siad one of the Germans "However it is spoiled by just one thing"
"Oh yes" says Katz "What's that"
"It's full of f##king Austrians"

Not my words, you understand, just relating the episode in the book.

Bill

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

If their message is unambiguous, it doesn't really matter if its not grammatically correct and it probably saves time and money not having to get a translator to look at it. If the "faulty language" leaves the substance of the message open to interpretation, it would be better to have it submitted clearly and precisely in the native language and hope that the translator isn't going to change the meaning of their message when they convert it!

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I did actually read one of Bill Bryson's books about living in England.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

The latin based languages have simpler sentence construction rules so they may not be aware of what they need to do to improve.  Or maybe they are being snooty about having to write in English.  

Try using Bablefish to translate a colloquially worded  email into their language.  They might get the point once they see how they are being perceived for their poor translations.  evil

Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

"I've been communicating with some Italian and Spanish engineers who speak/write understandable but horrible English, without any problem. While I was highly irritated, they didn't seem to have any issues or even percieve it as a problem, that I have to spend an hour trying to make out "what the poet meant to say.""

I think your first step should be to clean up your own act. The two sentences above directly contradict each other. Is it a problem or not? And check the spelling of perceive.

I have nothing but respect for anyone who can communicate in multiple languages, no matter how poorly. I'm limited to one.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I certainly don't look down on anyone who has difficulty with my first language, because I'm surely much worse at theirs.

Where their intent is not clear from context or from a drawing, I'll rephrase what they said, in English, and ask for confirmation, or just ask for clarification  ... or I'll make a drawing and ask them if that's what they want.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

To tell the truth, I've had relatively few problems communicating with Germans, Spaniards and Italians.

I've had some serious and expensive miscommunications with Brits, Australians, and New Zealanders, all separated by a common language.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I used to deal with a couple of German companies and virtually everyone spoke very good English, my German is at best just about pleasantries and I was the one doing the billing. I would never complain about someone else’s ability to speak a second language.

On a side note a joke from Europe,

Q What do you call someone who speaks many languages?
A Multilingual.

Q What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
A Bilingual.

Q What do you call someone who speaks only one language?
A English.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Ya'no, that's pretty funny until one realizes that English has 10 times as many words as most other languages on this planet.  Essentially, people who have a good command of the english language know more words than two or three other languages combined, so it's not that we are too lazy to learn other languages, but that our brains are filled up with all the English words that originally came from all those other languages. smile

Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Here is my two cents:

- If they live and work in the United States, they should speak and write effectively in english.

-If they are selling something to me, they should speak and write effectively in english.

-If they are buying something from me, I will bend over backwards to understand them and give them a pass on grammar, etc.

This based on my gut feelings and being quite annoyed with some of my non native english coworkers who exibit extremely poor grammar skills.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Matt,

You're dangerously close to assuming that English speakers actually know all of the words in the language.

A distressing number of people know very few of the words - simply using the same ones over and over again irrespective of what they're actually trying to say.

A.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

FiltrationEngineer wrote.

“-If they are selling something to me, they should speak and write effectively in English.

-If they are buying something from me, I will bend over backwards to understand them and give them a pass on grammar, etc.”

Why exactly if they are buying something from you should you not speak and write effectively in their language?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?


MechanicalAnimal,

Your comment about Russian engineers reminded me of an incident with a Russian co-worker that I’ve told before.  I was looking for someone to bid on an intricate bit of artwork for a project that involved historical restoration.

Yuri suggested a female artist friend of his. I was sort of half listening because it usually took a great deal of words for Yuri to get his message across.  I stopped what I was doing when he described his woman friend as “doing good hand job.”  Of course I asked him to elaborate and repeat what he was saying.  When I understood what he was trying to say, I corrected his English and told him he should say that his friend does good hand work.  Yuri was confused and asked me if ‘job’ and ‘work’ had about the same meaning.

I told him “not when the word hand is in front.”  Makes me laugh every time I remember it.
 
I also work with a few Egyptians and one Algerian and find that they are equally careful about their English.  I have a bad habit of using some colorful colloquial expressions and end up having to explain them.  My latest, in reference to a project left in a terrible state by a former employee, was “polishing a turd.”  (I hope I can say that here)  

I thought I was doing a good job explaining the expression, until I was asked if the word turd could be used in a formal setting place of ‘sh!t.’  By that point everyone around the area was laughing.  I generally enjoy trying to understand imperfect English.  I never get irritated.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

FiltrationEngineer,

I assumed or presumed nothing.  There's a qualifier in my statement. smile

Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

'Furregners' always seem to have problem writing english where their spoken english is generally good. I wouldn't be so arrogant to dismiss someone for at least making an attempt to use your language whereas you'd make no attempt to use theirs. It may be useful to ask those not familiar with english to write it in their native language as well as english. You can then use Worldlingo to translate their native tongue to english and then from both sets figure out what they're trying to say. Equally I'd write back using the same method. They'd apprecaite it if you used their language even if Woldlingo is sometimes grammatically very bad.

Here's the same text using Wolrdlingo translated into german. It took me a minute to write it.

Furregners“ scheinen immer, Problem zu haben, Englisch zu schreiben, in dem ihr gesprochenes Englisch im Allgemeinen gutes ist. Ich würde nicht so arrogant sein, jemand für einen Versuch mindestens bilden zu entlassen, Ihre Sprache zu verwenden, während Sie keinen Versuch bilden würden, ihr zu verwenden. Es kann nützlich sein, die nicht mit Englisch vertraut zu bitten, es in ihre Muttersprache sowie Englisch zu schreiben. Sie können Worldlingo dann verwenden, um ihre gebürtige Zunge zu Englisch zu übersetzen und dann von beiden Sätzen stellen Sie heraus dar, was sie versuchen, zu sagen. Gleichmäßig würde ich zurück mit der gleichen Methode schreiben. Sie wurden apprecaite es, wenn Sie ihre Sprache verwendeten, selbst wenn Woldlingo manchmal grammatisch sehr Schlechtes ist.

corus

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

(OP)
"I think your first step should be to clean up your own act. The two sentences above directly contradict each other. Is it a problem or not? And check the spelling of perceive.

I have nothing but respect for anyone who can communicate in multiple languages, no matter how poorly. I'm limited to one."

Your response contradicts itself as well, as the first part of it is harsh and irritated, and the follow-up says you have "nothing but respect... no matter how poorly". Do you have respect or not?

... But yes, my two sentences aren't fully elaborated, so let me clarify what I meant to say:
"Their faulty English didn't present an objective problem in the final outcome of the communication in question, there was no misunderstood information, and no odd machine parts laying around.
However, it did cause a subjective problem on our (my) part because I had to waste a lot of time translating and understanding, while I could have been doing something more important. It also made me think they are being unprofessional for not sparing me this extra work."

So I suppose, perfecting a foreign language does/would bring me (or anyone else) extra "points"?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Most Italians and Spanish write horrible English. This is not to annoy you. It is because they can't do any better. It's not a reason to be irritated.

Most Russians write good English. This is because most  Russians who send emails are translators. The guy behind the translator takes care not to touch the keyboard or you'd be even more irritated.

As you said, some Germans write German to the rest of the world, as if German were the internation business language. Now I may be strange but this annoys ME. smile

There are a couple other statements in this thread that I can't help reacting to:

"The latin based languages have simpler sentence construction rules" - heh heh... French has such compicated sentence construction rules, for example for asking questions, that simplified and very different constrcutions have appeared in oral/informal French. In writing though one is supposed to use the correct form. I don't write Italian or Spanish but assume things must be similar. I will not elaborate on Latin grammar of which everyone knows it's horribly complex.

“-If they are selling something to me, they should speak and write effectively in English.
-If they are buying something from me, I will bend over backwards to understand them and give them a pass on grammar, etc.”
This is very true, and everybody who questions these statements is definitely not involved in sales

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

forgot one

"English has 10 times as many words as most other languages on this planet" - !!! please bring data! this statement is really fascinating

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

The reason I question the statements

“-If they are selling something to me, they should speak and write effectively in English.

-If they are buying something from me, I will bend over backwards to understand them and give them a pass on grammar, etc.”

Why does the opposite not apply?

If I am selling to them, I should speak and write effectively in their language.

To expect one thing when it works in your favour, but to tolerate something less when it does not seems very arrogant to me and yes I do work in sales amongst other things.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

"If I am selling to them, I should speak and write effectively in their language."
OK if you mean the statement should be generalised to non-English speaking buyers, I totally agree with that. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

MechanicalAnimal
It also depends on what it is you are trying to communicate. If it is the way a nuclear reactor should work, then I would say it is rather important that the detailed message is clear concise and agreed up-front which language it should be in. If it is general discussion that is not critical if it is slightly wrong, then of course any error from a non-native English speaker should be taken without too much of a problem.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

WGJ
Your links tell me first of all that the question how many words exist in English (or other languages) is impossible to answer. The first link mentions English has been greatly influenced by French conquest in the 11th century. Sure, but this is no basis for comparison whatsoever - one should count how much French has been influenced by English (why would that be any less?) and by any other languages, then one should do the same for other world languages before claiming that English has more words (the number 10 times appears to be based on absolutely nothing) than other world languages.
This is no English-speaker bashing and I happily wish you guys a bigger vocabulary than other people's, I just don't like bold statements with an uncertain basis...

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Quote:

. French has such compicated sentence construction rules, for example for asking questions, that simplified and very different constrcutions have appeared in oral/informal French.

English gets many of its grammar rules from French.  I believe French is unusually complex.  But from the Spanish speakers I know and discussed this with, grammar is more particular in english than in spanish.  Of course, the rest of the world thinks us English speakers talk backwards. :)

Matt
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
sw.fcsuper.com
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Ajack1:

Why exactly if they are buying something from you should you not speak and write effectively in their language?

Because fair or not, English is the global language.  Even when non native english speakers are communicating, they often do so in english.

We have a couple Indian guys consulting in our office.  They told me their office back in India, they speak english in any formal communication, including inter office verbal conversations.  All documentation is done in english.  

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I had to train operators in a gas plant in Pakistan.  Hardly any of them spoke any English, so I learned the few words that they did know, and restricted my vocabulary to those words.  If I introduced a new word, I would let them know what it meant using the words they knew.  It was like a fun game to me.  It wasn't as bad as you can imagine, but the field manager I worked with couldn't do it.  He constantly would get frustrated when they didn't understand a word, then he'd use several different words as if they would understand those.  

Ultimately, I had to learn some Urdu, and that helped a lot.  I think the key is to know that there could be something missing in the communication of ideas and to key in on the other person's response.

MechanicalAnimal,

When you are trying to understand what they meant to say, do you ask them, or do you walk away confused and try to figure it out on your own?  I wouldn't walk away until I fully understood.  One way to do that is to repeat everything they said to you back to them, but the way you understood it, maybe even elaborate a little where you felt that they left stuff out.  If you're wrong, they'll probably notice and fill in the blanks.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

(OP)
Thanx, Casimo5, I'll keep it in mind. I'm indeed the type to "go away and figure it out on my own later" in many areas in professional life.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I have had the opportunity to work with engineers from several different nationalities in the past.  It is fortunate indeed that their English was much better than my German, French, Spanish, Arabic, Japanese and Korean.

When good attitudes prevail, we have had enjoyable experiences and success in overcoming the technical problems of the project in spite of our language barriers.  

Although sometimes there is a frustration level on the part of both me and my counterpart during the process, I count these experiences as enjoyable after the fact.

old field guy

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

MechanicalAnimal:

What makes you think that one who speaks fluent English knows what he is talking about for technical matters?

If I were to solve a technical problem, I would like to have a technical expert handle it than a english scholar.

It is obvious that you felt irritated because "they" were not communicating flawlessly with you in "your" language. Did you spare a thought for their feelings when you did not even attempt to speak "their" language?? How rude were you? If you had learned spanish or italian, by you could have solved the "your" problem by yourself.



RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I used to work in Rome with Italian colleagues, some of whom spoke English better than I do.  Others, however, completely mangled the language even after several years of tution (probably I spoke Italian just as badly - I don't know as no-one told me any differently).

While in Rome, we had a visit from a young Japanese sales guy who gave us a presentation in really bad spoken English.  Afterwards, he asked for my opinion.  I told him that the presentation was good but his poor grasp of English let him down.  About 18 months later, he arrived at our offices again and this time spoke to us in clear, concise, accentless English.  Afterwards I complimented him on the improvement and he said, "Thank you Bennett-san for your previous recommendation.  It cost me a great deal of money to improve. I feel all the better for it and I'm selling more of my products because of it."

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

How do hochdeutschsprechende Germans perceive Austrians and Bavarians speaking in Bavarian or Austrian German?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

(OP)
rbulsara,

I wasn't trying to speak Italian and I don't think I hurt anyone's "feelings" by arranging the communication in English because my first language is Croatian and English is as foreign to me as it is to them. It would be stupid for me to learn Italian and for Italians to learn Croatian, as these are very "small" languages, when we can both learn English of German and be able to communicate with a great majority of people who use these languages.
It is very common in my practice, as I'll communicate in any language both of the considered parties speak (for instance I do Croatian, German and English, my boss also does French and Russian, so we choose what both parties know best as means of communication with different partners.

I didn't ask the question of expertise because that isn't/wasn't the issue. The problem I was  trying to address was focused on the fact that an expert with a sufficient knowledge of matter in question can make construction flaws because he failed to communicate his ideas in an appropriate way. People who speak faulty language might think they're saying something right, while they're saying something totally different (I know a guy who thought "feet" was an English word for "meter" !!!)

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

It is Mechanicalanimal all 3.2808399 of them, or at least it would be if you spelt metre correctly. winky smile

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

ajack:

ROFL!!! Oops, not all will understand that..surprise

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

(OP)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_%28disambiguation%29

According to this, I wasn't wrong, only not completely accurate.
This DOES, in fact, proove the point that language SHOULD be perfected... In spite of the fact most of you keep SAYING that perfection in language isn't necessary, every time I made a mistake you people mocked me - even if I repeatedly said I wasn't a native English speaker. So obviously, I can conclude that this issue is VERY important to you, even if you'd rather if you were more liberal... Thanx for all the help, it was very insightful! :) :)

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Languages will NEVER be perfect. It is not even one of the goals. It is always evolving. So try to be tolenrant, your behaviour could also be as much annoying to others as you percieve others' to be to you.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Quote:

every time I made a mistake you people mocked me - even if I repeatedly said I wasn't a native English speaker. So obviously, I can conclude that this issue is VERY important to you

No, it just means that people who complain about mistakes are subjected to a higher standard.

Hg

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RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

i haven't read all the posts so maybe someone noticed this, but isn't i before e except after c ? ie "perceive"

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

rb1957:
You missed to comment on misspelled "tolenrant" or may be you are missing the whole picture!.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

like i said "i haven't read all the posts ...",

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Interesting discussion (well, most of it). I was born and raised in a very small language, we were about seven millions when I was born. That makes you handicapped. But, I was lucky. Working with ABB forced me to use English, since ABB was selling stuff to foreign countries. I was sent to France, where I really tried to communicate in French. After nine months, I seemed to get the knack of it. I then moved to Siemens, German everywhere. My most problematic language. Took a correspondance course, which my wife did most of, but she was tough on me, never sent anything before I had approved it. So I guess that I learned something. And I certainly had to when writing reports. Everything had to be in German.

Now, I do work for SKF, ABB, Siemens and many other international companies. English in meetings, reports, mails, everywhere. The fun in mastering several languages is slowly fading away when English is taking over. But it is very practical. And I think that it is a much better situation than trying to talk to each other in broken Swedish, Finnish or what have you.

The situation is a little like the Microsoft Dominance. Most people complained about it. But Bill made us do things the same way and using compatible tools. That is a big advantage.

Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
--------------------------------------
100 % recycled posting: Electrons, ideas, finger-tips have been used over and over again...

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

rb1957

Quote:

i haven't read all the posts so maybe someone noticed this, but isn't i before e except after c ? ie "perceive"

Tell me about it...

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Filtrationengineer,

You really are not very informed about the rest of the world are you.

English is one of the official languages of India and is spoken by most educated people, the reason why they speak it in the office is because out of the 2 or 3 languages that most of them speak, this may be the only one the whole office has in common.

Oh, and once you get through the thick accent, I have found that most of them speak better english than the average American.

csd

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I do not know if is just the Germans that do this, or do other countries do it as well?
 I have a lot of German aircraft repair manuals. At the end of each one, is a statement by the translator, " This document has been translated to the best of my ability. But in any case the original German text is authoritative." I have always taken this to mean  that If I did not like his/her translation I was free to get my own.
B.E.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Similar disclaimers are also common in the automotive industry.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

" This document has been translated to the best of my ability. But in any case the original German text is authoritative."  

To me this means that, in the event of a dispute, the original German language documents take legal precedence in a Court of Law.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Which I guess would mean that if the contract says in case of a dispute the competent court is any other court than a German one, that court will base its decision on an ad hoc translation by a translator who has most probably never seen any aircraft repair manual before..?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I made a number of visits to a Russian Oil refinery accompanied by the local agents who all spoke very good English. The engineers at the plant were not all so good and some had none at all and depended on the translations of one person.
All went very well but at the final negotiations, a professional simultaneous translator was brought in to provide an official translation. I was mighty impressed by his ability.
The lesson was simple, when it matters, do it right and protect your backside.

On another occasion I was in the Alsace area where the expected host was not available and the engineer I dealt with had no English and we were reliant on my very very basic French and German and a form of sign language we invented as we went along! Fine for a basic understanding but we would neither of us have put our jobs on the line based on the "discussion".

Re contracts, the best advise I ever got was from the companies legal expert who said, if you want the business and you think you can deliver, don't worry about the contract, you can accept most terms if you have to, (and build in a cost of you must) but most important, he said, is agree on a country where the dispute is to be resolved that is where you would be happy to spend a holiday.

At a conference in Germany, the Canadian delegate explained a situation where one of their French Canadians and French national spoke English to each other as each claimed not to be able to understand the others French.
He gave an example of the expression "sou coup" was a saucer to the one (going under the cup) and a sauce dish to the other.
My Brother in law, who learnt Spanish in Barcelona and lives and works in LA explained that one word in Spanish can have many different pronunciations according to the speakers native Spanish.
Incidentally, in some parts of the USA, the dominant primary language is Spanish and in some states it is a requirement of teachers, for example, that they are bilingual.

And now we come to English and here we need to know who's English is the the gold standard; England's English is a minority sub-set and a growing set is the European "English as a second language" variety to ad to all the others.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

There is no gold standard of English because there is no one with the authority to bestow that status worldwide.

I'm rather fond of Indian English, for no particular reason.

Hg

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RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Quote:

There is no gold standard of English because there is no one with the authority to bestow that status worldwide.

Never heard of Queens English?smile

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

She ain't my queen.  Unless you're talking about the borough of Queens, NY, which has an interesting English indeed.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

The Queen's English is spoken only by a minority of the population of the British Isles.
I know that it is a small minority from the standards of English now evident on the BBC. This is, of course, a diminishing spiral as the standard of English broadcast affects the standard within the general population.
For example, 25 years of Australian soaps have had a profound effect on the English language.
The English are none too protective of their language which is not the case with the French who are serious about protecting those things thy consider French, not least their language. Purists quiver with righteous indignation when terms like "le weekend" "le Jumbo" enter the language.

We could argue that some of those who find that the best way to subsidise their foreign holidays is to obtain a TEFAL qualification do the language a great disservice; I heard of one Japanese businessman who learned his English from a TEFAL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language) student only to discover, on his first visit to London, that he had acquired a broad Glaswegian accent.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

If anything, broadcast media tend to flatten out the linguistic landscape.  Since people all over the country are watching the same program(me), they are all exposed to the same accent.  One could argue about the degree to which the broadcast media are starting to reflect regional accents vs. the degree to which regional accents are destroyed by exposure to more-or-less "standard" accents in the broadcast media.

Hg

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RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Most Italians and Spanish write horrible English.

It is truth generally acknowledge that we are able to write a terrible English. Last summer I read Far from the madding crowd and Pride and prejudice to improve my grammar skills without any visible result. I tried to do my best.

http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

If you want to improve your "English" through literature study, look into the works of Irvine Welsh and Niall Griffiths.  Though not exactly English in that they are Scottish and Welsh, their works are written using modern English.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Good advice, SomptingGuy, I need a bit of contemporary literature for these summer holidays.

http://NotOnlyBridges.blogspot.com

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?


 Hi,

   English is my second language. I would say that I'm good in both writing and speaking. My writing skill was enhanced through reading. I noticed that I can write better than some native speakers. In fact, lots of native speakers are poor spellers. Even those who have good education have trouble with spelling.And I think that's a shame.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I have tried my best to speak and write correct English.

I think if I can not make it correct I will at least respect others.

Forever Young

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I frequently have to contact colleagues who work in France or Italy, and whenever I phone them they answer the phone in French or Italian and I have to resond in English on the assumption that they are going to understand. They always do, brilliantly, but I still find it embarrasing to have to make this assumption.
As long as I can understand what someone is trying to say, without ambiguity then I am grateful for the effort in trying to speak English, and you cannot assume that poor English skills relate to poor engineering or other skills.
If I had to speak to someone with no English then I wouldn't read too much into it, if it was someone I was trying to contact then I would get someone from within the organisaton to translate, whereas if it was someone trying to sell me something then not using English would just make it easier to ignore, which is often a good thing!

Rich

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

There is a good reason in your life, Matt, to be involve in some kind of Samaritan work: Why you do not try to help your colleagues correcting and teaching whenever they make grammar  mistakes and at the same time you can see yourself as volunteer in a kind way to stop discrimination that those who can not communicate in a perfect English suffer in the work place. Do a best world improving the other's word.

English is not a perfect language. I know many English tongue people telling that it is crazy. Many times you get confuse if you do not know which them someone is talking about. Grammar  has so strange rules and pronunciation has many waves. I know many Natives English tongue taking English classes after several years to get a ticket to a College.
 

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Is “perfect” English even possible?

If you compare England with America we have different ways of spelling colour, metre, centre, tyre and gauge for example. From an automotive point of view to an American bonnet, boot, wing and will all have different meanings as to an English person hood, trunk and fender will.

So is it even possible to send the same letter or email to an English person and an American in perfect English? That is before you get into grammar and the many mistakes I am sure I have made. What chance does someone stand if it is not his or her native language?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

The US Government thoughtfully provided my dad (and many other US servicemen) with a pocket dictionary for American to English. I guess that Back in the 40's there was less familiarity by either country with the others language.
It didn't have those phrases such as "I would like to buy this bridge. How much is it?" but a nice list of "fawcett = tap", "Pavement = sidewalk" conversions ajack1 mentions and some guidance on customs such as how to order beer in a pub without offending the locals.
Of course there is greater familiarity these days but there are still occasions when you get caught out.
I remember once in a store in Georgia, buying some trousers ("dress" pants) and wanting them with turn-ups. It took a considerable amount time while the assistant kept repeating "Turn-ups?" every time I said it.
I resorted to the standard English approach with foreigners of enunciating clearly and loudly and praying that repetition and increasing volume would finally get it through what I wanted.
Say what you like, this technique does work because after a while that light bulb over her head switched on and exclaimed: "Oh, you mean "cuffs"!"

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Re English (or at least Australian) v/s American

It is a problem when there are different terms for the same thing such as Bonnet/Hood Turn-ups/cuffs (as you were in Georgia jmw I'm surprised you didn't get a plate of turnips).
But when the same word is used for related but vastly different things, the confusion can become hazardous. I was prepared for the 10% difference in ton(nes), but when I was told our new lime silo was being constructed of 6mil metal, I couldn't help picturing 20 tonnes of lime tearing it's way through a tin foil silo bottom.
6 mil= 6/1000 inch or 6/1000 metre, big difference.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Re correcting foreign speakers of English...

I normally ask (non English) friends & colleagues if they want English language correction.  Once you get to the 90% point in a foreign language, the last 10% is very hard to learn otherwise.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I deal with south american ESL people every day.  I just figure my spanish might sound like their english does so I cut them a lot of slack.  However, it is a great help in understanding their english by knowing their language.  Often their english mistakes are driven by their formulation of the thought in their mind in their first language.  Recognizing how it would have been said in spanish or portuguese helps make the english more understandable.

My second language is portuguese, my third spanish and my third german.  My first language is Louisiana cajun french accented english.

Strangest meeting I ever attended and participated in was with german engineers from a german Hx manufacturer trying to explain their equipment to a customer consisting of a mixture of cajun french english speaking maintenance personnel, hispanic process operators, and english only speaking (but devoid of engineering knowledge) management personnel.

I had to keep slipping the correct english or spanish words in when the germans would say walve for valve, or wapor for vapor or herein for in here.  Then I would have to translate the french colloqualisms back to standard english when the cajuns would speak (I'm going to brought this up to the front burner-I am going to move this to the front burner) and for some of the spanish speakers I had to translate it all both ways.

All of this was within 60 miles of New Orleans in the USA.

True story; Last year I was eating breakfast in my hotel in the midlands of England and I could understand everything being said by 4 mexican engineers at the next table while I couldn't understand even half of what the two english waiters chatting by my table were saying.

rmw

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

rmw, I'm not that good in your language(I think that also is a correct sentence}, but what is 'colloqualism'?
I also read (filtration eng.)that English is the nr.1
global language, is that really true?
I thought that is Spanish, and maybe by now Chinese.
What is the word for 'meter' in your language?
It is meter in many European languages.

Greetings to you all,

p.s. some of You are a little intolerant, I think.

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

A "colloquialism" is a phrase that makes no sense when translated literally, i.e., word for word.  Try going both ways in AltaVista BabelFish and you can probably find good examples of your own.

An apocryphal story from the early days of machine translation said that
"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak",
became
"The whisky is good, but the meat has gone bad.",
when translated from English to Russian and back.


The word for 'meter' is 'meter', sometimes spelled 'metre' to signal unambiguously that it's a unit of length, because 'meter' has other meanings in English.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Thanks Mike

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Hi, Happy to say hello!

Very agree comunicatoin very immportant!

Engineers correct using Eglish very impotant!

We very careful witting User Intrusions and Band Hooks to teach user know how use us product!

Us staffs all have training class hlep to write best Hand Books!

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

I think I once bought one of your products. It did not last long smile

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

The text bellow was posted by FOETS in October 27, 2006 and I think it will be actual in this topic:

“I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty  uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig  to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy,

it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the  ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat  ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll  raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey  lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas  tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
FOETS
"sacoil dknerir wtih a ginflog plorbem"

Cheers

luis

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

OK, I've resisted for weeks,

WITH DIFFICULTY

Tah dah.

Seriously though, at my place we have a lot of customers in APAC and correspondingly a lot of field staff there too.

Their level of English is not fantastic and my only other language is a spattering of French.

It makes trying to support them very difficult.

I've also had to work with Italians, whose English was better but not perfect.  That was a bit easier but still lead to miscomunication at times.

If you can muddle through do whatever it takes but with my field support I'll email a question to clarify the problem and get no response, they don't even say "I no understand please make more simple" or something like that.  Our in house tech support doesn't have much more luck.  I can't help thinking we need to resolve this, either get a translator service or make sure the people we hire can speak English.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

That is an interesting concept KENAT, do all Americans who work for German or French companies for example speak German or French?

RE: How do you percieve an engineer communicating in faulty language?

Probably not, so long as some way of communicating is found I don't think it's important who speaks both languages.

We did a little work with the French at my last place and mine wasn't good enough so we got a translation service.

My point is that if a company wants to sell products or work with people that don't have the same language they need to bridge the gap.  Either hire staff that do speak the lingo or get a translation service.

Getting local field support staff that speak the local lingo but not enough english to effectively comunicate with the factory is a problem.  They either need to hire people there who speak English, replace me or someone at the factory with someone that speaks the various APAC languages or get a translation service to help.

This isn't an issue of me thinking English is better and everyone else should learn it.  I'm somewhat ashamed my French isn't better but even if it was it wouldn't be much help with our APAC staff.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

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