×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

(OP)
Looks like the free market principles of supply and demand in the US job market are about to get another boost.

See -> S. 1092

I see it as an obstacle to prevent the US technical workers that generate the value at US companies from being able to reap the same financial reward the financial managers and attorneys seem to believe they are entitled to.

Opinions?

The comments look like they came from folks that are waiting for a green card.

I couldn’t have been happier when a former employer outsourced the HR department overseas.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Hey man- stop complaining.  At least you Americans HAVE the H1B program to limit the number of visas granted so that it at least partially matches the labour force demand!

In Canada we have the idiotic "Human Capital Model" of immigration.  Bring in smart, educated people, regardless of the need for their skills in the job market, and let the economy sort them out.  Deport the illegals who have moved in to fill the jobs vacuum in the trades etc., while thousands of engineers drive taxis.  It's idiocy.  Have a look at www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm to see the appalling Canadian stats for engineering total supply (grads plus immigrants) vs time.  They haven't gotten any better in the past three years...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

I find it hard to express how thrilled I am that such a bill is even being contemplated  ...  in a way that would be acceptable in a public forum.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Re Canadian immigration...

When I was working in the US (on an H1B of course) it seemed the best way to work legally in the US was to get Canadian citizenship (easier than US??), which allowed them to work in the US.  We called these people "Virtual Canadians".

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

why we have the H1B ? to drive labor cost down and because nobody studies engineering anymore. almost. except migrants to be. we are better to study law and medicine. you can always make your own job

why canandian have an open immigration policy? to drive labor cost down, to increase demand and stimulate the economy by increase in demand for services. is it good or bad? depends I assume good if somewishes to setup a takeaway.

I wonder who claims the survey that Canada is the best place to live? in the world.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

It's nice to see that our Democratic congress is working for those poor, unfortunate robber-barons. I wish that people would understand that if we want ultra-wealthy individuals in our society that we will all have to make sacrifices.

If engineers were a little smarter we would band together to oppose this type of occurrence, and work to increase our own standard of living. Instead we pays dues to engineering societies that are great places to network. You know, networking is vital to finding another job when you have been replaced with a foreign engineer.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Lincoln used the phrase in his Gettysburg address "government of the people, by the people, for the people" . Today that phrase would more correctly be stated; "government of big business, by the big business, for big business".

What we need to do is to have H1B visa for executive and CEO positions. That's where the big money savings is!

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Quote:

why we have the H1B ? to drive labor cost down and because nobody studies engineering anymore. almost

opsops3 - You may be right in that there is a bit of a shortage of engineers - but I just sat through a graduation event at a major US midwest university and there was a large contingent of engineering graduates there compared to the other degrees...perhaps 1000 or so.  

I'm sure there are numbers out there as to "required engineer graduates" vs. "engineer positions available".  But there are still a lot of young people going into engineering in the US.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Wonderful...just what we need.

There's no shortage of engineers. Perhaps there's a shortage of engineers who are cheap but possessing the exact experience someone wants with the exact set of specialized skills.

No, let's not provide advanced training. No, let's not hire anybody over 45. No, let's not require a PE to do engineering work.

No, let's just import more engineers from India etc and keep the pool young and cheap.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

There are shortages of certain types of engineers in certain areas for sure.  However this is typically due to high cost of living etc meaning you can't lead the anticipated lifestyle of a graduate engineer for what they are willing to pay you.  Rather than fixing the problems of housing costs/transport... it's perhaps easier to import Engineers from countries who are willing to live the life style of a lower paid proffession.

That said our place tried to hire someone from abroad for a lead Engineer position and he said no - cost of living (primarily housing) was too high.  

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

opsops3,

Stop your H1B paranoia, how many American engineers are working overseas? If you want the opportunity to work overseas then you have to put up with people doing the same in the US.

Beggar,

I think you are spot on. If there is a shortage of engineers why are many engineering salaries struggling to keep up with inflation, why do you never see companies offering relocation packages for engineers? We are just another commodity to be bought and sold and we can only blame our peers and predecessors for that.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Most of them work for US companies based overseas on US terms.

Unless they ve choose to emigrate from US and thats' another story.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Most of them displace indigenous workers in the countries in which they work.

I find it amazing that some otherwise intelligent people - almost exclusively US citizens - start complaining about engineers from other nations working in their country while being completely blind to the reverse situation. American engineers aren't any better or worse than their European counterparts, so why do some people think they are entitled to be treated as special? Smacks of hypocrisy.
 

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Where's the hypocrisy?

By all means, every country should exhaust its own work force before considering allowing folks from other countries to come take the existing jobs.

If there's a shortage in a given area, the answer is training and wage increase, not importation of cheaper foreign labor.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

The hypocrisy is the in-built assumption that it's ok for Americans to go World hopping, stealing local jobs wherever they go.  Maybe the locals think of them as "cheaper foreign labour" too?

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

I agree with Beggar 100% but mostly US CORPORATIONS embrace and champion globalization, that moves capital around, moves jobs around ( nobody really cares about employees) as shareholders can make more money. Yes, US companies move jobs away from other countries as well and not to USA. To give an example a co A buys into comp B that has facilities in country C and now somebody in US decides to move the jobs to China. How about that? Do you really think that the displace workers in country C can chase the jobs to China? Probably not.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

opsops,

Another hypothetical example, but one which might not be far into the future if we let Country C represent China:

Co. A buy into Co. B in Country C and installs management from the US of A into Co. B. Is that reasonable? How about if the situation reverses and Co. X buys into Co. Y in the US of A and installs a management team from Country C into Co. Y?

I don't see a difference between the two cases, primarily because there isn't one.
 

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

SomptingGuy: I haven't seen too many examples of Americans heading overseas to take jobs in Europe and I certainly didn't run into any during my months working in the Netherlands servicing our equipment.

Certainly American corporations may be using some folks from their stateside offices just the Japanese companies will usually bring senior managers from Japan. Is that what you're talking about?

Is there a perception in the UK or elsewhere that Americans are coming in and undercutting the local labor force and suppressing wages?

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

scottyuk

only difference is when company C cames in the country A to takeover but the gov says No as it is against national interest see Unicol . Do we want free trade agreements or not or only a partial pick and choose?

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Beggar,

I guess the USA (including immediate neighbours??)  is still perceived by its residents as an island in the same way the UK was 100 years ok?  We moved on.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

SomptingGuy:

Huh?

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

I would have no problem with engineering jobs being outsourced if they would outsource executive jobs as well. Do we really need to pay a CEO $200,000,000 a year if there is a cheaper executive a company could hire in China for $200,000? An outsourced executive couldn't be any less competent given the fiasco US businesses have experienced lately. Then, maybe with the savings US companies could afford some capital improvement and modernization.

But in reality, the outsourcing is one sided. It's the jobs of the people at the bottom being outsourced.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Well, quite a few Fortune 500 firms have/had Australian CEOs, so the outsourcing isn't all peons.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

THE AUSTRALIAN WORK VISA IN USA and ....


I know of the Ford CEO but he did not last long. any other senior director was only given a job just to facilitate some sort of takeover. Many australian co were bought lately by US firms. By the way a special visa is available for Australians only to work in US if they wish and has nothing to do with H1B

i believe is called E3 but not sure......i guess is for the "effort" in Iraq...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Beggar,

My word "island" was a (wasted) euphamism for "colonial power".  It's fine and dandy to leave one's own island and conquer the funny foreigners, maybe even invite a few back to do menial work.  But to have them arrive uninvited and do real work is just not cricket!

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

It's only a few years since the US placed illegal (in the view of the WTO) import duties on foreign steel to protect US steelworkers jobs.

I actually had to re-read opsops' last post because I thouight it said "...only difference is when country C comes in the country A to takeover...". Guess the identity of Country C in this example?
 

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

SomptingGuy:

I think you're misjudging the situation but I suspect that nothing I say will change your view so further comment is a waste of time and space.

Cheers.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

I love how they titled this the 'relief' worker act, as if it actually benefits workers.  After all, who wouldn't vote for a bill with such a rosey title?  It is amazing how poorly our government represents its own people as to go so far to do something like this.  I hate Washington DC.  Criminals...all of them, and sneaky ones at that.

What sickens me more is the significant public support for this bill.  Rather than train more US students to work in technology, let's just import them.  Why are engineers being so passive about this!?!?!   Despite an abundance of engineers they attempt a bill like this.  Yet we don't see them doing this in medicine, a field in which there IS a shortage of doctors and nurses.  Salaries are finally becoming competitive in engineering so what do they do?... find a way to turn this into another ~35k/yr job.

Everyone thinks that this bill will bring technological talent back to our country, but all it will do is destroy the talent that was already here.  



    

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Regalia,

There is a solution to the both parties screwing you, you vote for a third party.

This is not a wasted vote. In Australia recently it has been the independents that have held the balance of power (i.e. they were needed by either party for a majority vote) and they were able to trade their vote for other bills being passed or get it ammended to their requirements.

Good point about the doctors and nurses, now those are professions that have got their hands tightly on the reins.

opsops3,
I believe the CEO of MacDonalds is an Australian also.

To all those migrant naysayers,

Welcome to the global economy!

There is actually a global shortage of engineers across the globe. You can get a job almost anywhere in the world (I have moved countries twice and never been looking for work more than 2 weeks.) One of the hardest countries to get into is the USA.

When Americas economy collapses, you will be glad that countries let foreign professionals in to work. I did intend to say when, not if. I bet the romans though their little empire would last forever, so did the british.

csd





RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

THE H1B visa is called/based upon The American Competitiveness Act,
the Australian citizens are eligible for E-3 Treaty Professional Visas

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

csd72:  what evidence do you have, aside from your own anecdotal experience with finding a job, that there is a global shortage of engineers?

There certainly is no shortage of engineers in Canada, and I have the statistics to prove that conclusively.  That said, there ARE indeed regional shortages, and shortages at certain levels of experience or in certain fields.  When you analyze these shortages, you invariably find that these correspond to years when the marketplace wasn't hiring engineers, or fields which previously were in a protracted "bust" cycle which later recovered.  Tough to find engineers with ~10 years experience when the market wasn't HIRING fresh grads 10 years ago!  And the Canadian experience has shown that even immigration at ENORMOUS levels- almost twice the number immigrating to Canada per year as the entire output of all of our accredited universities- cannot make this sort of problem go away completely.

I think I can safely venture that THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS:  rather, there's a lack of willingness of firms to pay engineers what they're really worth, to hire them early in their careers and train them etc.  Businesses will do these things only when market conditions force them to do so, and they don't like being forced to spend money.  So they spend a smaller amount of money on media via their lobby groups to promote the myth of shortage.  It's proven to be money very well spent on their part, as governments have proven time and again their willingness to respond by turning on the supply taps.  And nobody in our prima donna profession is standing by to close them again when the market overflows...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

my 2c

the root cause is this: on a dollar to dollar basis/comparison and accomodating the exchange rate: the US engineers( in general) make more that everybody else (except maybe Japan). In addition the cost of living is apparently lower ( again on general basis). That suggest that the net income in US is better than everywhere else.

If this is actually true or valid for everybody is an individual matter.

I  also agree that there is a surplus of engineers world wide. many underemployed or underpaid or working in non related occupations.




RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Dollar-for-dollar most engineers in Western Europe make a similar amount to their US counterparts at current exchange rates, perhaps a little higher in some cases, perhaps a little lower in others, but generally not too far different. The cost of living in the US is definitely lower on average than in Western Europe and that makes a big perceived difference to the standard of life to which that salary equates.
 

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

My company used to use a formula for US salaries of Brit employees on secondment.  Multiply pounds by 2.5 and that's it in dollars.  Not bad 10 years ago when the exchange rate was 1.5-1.6.  Especially since anything you might want to buy cost the same in dollars (numerically) as in pounds (except for cars, where the number was less!).  I put the discepancy down to the fact that the things a young(ish) bloke needs aren't generally the things that cost an arm and a leg over there (College fees, healthcare, private schooling).

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

I don't think we're worried about Europeans flocking to the U.S. as a result of this.  We're worried about every person in India, China, Korea, and the Middle East simultaneously applying for the soon to be 195,000 work permits as permitted by this bill in 2008.  Why????  It's not that we're xenophobic...People from these countries have proven that they will toil away for a fraction of their worth in post-doc programs.  

The CEO of IBM just a few months ago gave a speech about the shortage of engineers his company is struggling with.  A month later, IBM lays off 10,000 people.  What a tool.

This bill will hurt entry level more than anything....so much so that I think the number of US students who major in engineering will dwindle to zero.

The deomcrats are pushing this bill hard, and Bush loves the guest worker program too much to veto it.  Most republicans hate the bill, but it is unlikely there are enough to filibuster it.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

moltenmetal,

I said a global shortage. North America may be significant economically but it is only a small fraction of the world population. The engineers are drawn to the areas that pay the best, namely North America and Europe, therefore the shortage will be felt the least in those regions.

The immigration is actually a double edged sword, it can flood the market in rich countries but can also act as a 'brain drain' in the poorer countries that are not able to compete with the salaries.

Regalia,

I would like to ammend my statement regarding the doctors. In my region of you look up medical doctor in you yellow pages you get a whole list of foreign names. My doctor is from india. I think that you will find this type of visa arrangement has already been applied to the medical professions for some time.

One thing in the favor of American Engineers is that many states will not let you become a PE unless you are a US citizen/ permanent resident. Unfortunately this means that they will be more likely to compete with US students for entry level jobs.

csd





RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

There is a shortage of /experienced/ engineers (hooray) in Australia. The company I work for is recruiting internationally, and has been for the past few years. Over in Western Australia mining engineers with two year's experience are being hired for 200000 dollars a year, anecdotally.

Logically, if there is an excessive supply of engineers, our pay should be falling with respect to the rest of the workforce. As a multiple of the median pay, it is in fact rising, since last year the engineers in this company got an average 4.0% rise, the preceeding three years it was 5% pa. Wage 'inflation' in Oz was 3.6% last year, in which we also hit 95% employment, and 3.8% the previous year.

So, this "global" excess seems to be a Canadian phenomenon.  

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

GregLocock, could you introduce me a high paying job in WA?

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Look in the employment section of "The Weekend Australian"- there's 3.5 pages of engineering and mining jobs.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Thanks

I wish the yankees stay home and don't steal our jobs.

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

"They took'ar jobs!!!"

-Angry redneck conservative, South Park

(I hope at least one person in this thread gets this)

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

anti - globalization movements clashes in Germany. I wonder why?

capital is moving around, jobs are moving around but the freedom of movement is diminishing..........

they obviously have a point

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

Regalia you are gonna like this:

The other day I met a friend of mine that just returned from a business trip in New Zealand. Somehow along the lines it came out of the discussion that a majority of large companies in NZ are now in foreign ownership mainly Australian and American.....Americans having a large chunk of the pie.

I guess they buy all things out not only the jobs...hihihihi

RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007

"....Americans having a large chunk of the pie."

Not really so much Americans as private equity firms and investment banlks that happened to be based in America.  These companies bring almost no value to society as a whole either through growth, employment, or taxes.  The vast majority of American workers are just pawns to the US financial machine, the same as you.  

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources