S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
(OP)
Looks like the free market principles of supply and demand in the US job market are about to get another boost.
See -> S. 1092
I see it as an obstacle to prevent the US technical workers that generate the value at US companies from being able to reap the same financial reward the financial managers and attorneys seem to believe they are entitled to.
Opinions?
The comments look like they came from folks that are waiting for a green card.
I couldn’t have been happier when a former employer outsourced the HR department overseas.
See -> S. 1092
I see it as an obstacle to prevent the US technical workers that generate the value at US companies from being able to reap the same financial reward the financial managers and attorneys seem to believe they are entitled to.
Opinions?
The comments look like they came from folks that are waiting for a green card.
I couldn’t have been happier when a former employer outsourced the HR department overseas.





RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
In Canada we have the idiotic "Human Capital Model" of immigration. Bring in smart, educated people, regardless of the need for their skills in the job market, and let the economy sort them out. Deport the illegals who have moved in to fill the jobs vacuum in the trades etc., while thousands of engineers drive taxis. It's idiocy. Have a look at www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm to see the appalling Canadian stats for engineering total supply (grads plus immigrants) vs time. They haven't gotten any better in the past three years...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
When I was working in the US (on an H1B of course) it seemed the best way to work legally in the US was to get Canadian citizenship (easier than US??), which allowed them to work in the US. We called these people "Virtual Canadians".
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
why canandian have an open immigration policy? to drive labor cost down, to increase demand and stimulate the economy by increase in demand for services. is it good or bad? depends I assume good if somewishes to setup a takeaway.
I wonder who claims the survey that Canada is the best place to live? in the world.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
If engineers were a little smarter we would band together to oppose this type of occurrence, and work to increase our own standard of living. Instead we pays dues to engineering societies that are great places to network. You know, networking is vital to finding another job when you have been replaced with a foreign engineer.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
What we need to do is to have H1B visa for executive and CEO positions. That's where the big money savings is!
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
opsops3 - You may be right in that there is a bit of a shortage of engineers - but I just sat through a graduation event at a major US midwest university and there was a large contingent of engineering graduates there compared to the other degrees...perhaps 1000 or so.
I'm sure there are numbers out there as to "required engineer graduates" vs. "engineer positions available". But there are still a lot of young people going into engineering in the US.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
There's no shortage of engineers. Perhaps there's a shortage of engineers who are cheap but possessing the exact experience someone wants with the exact set of specialized skills.
No, let's not provide advanced training. No, let's not hire anybody over 45. No, let's not require a PE to do engineering work.
No, let's just import more engineers from India etc and keep the pool young and cheap.
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RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
That said our place tried to hire someone from abroad for a lead Engineer position and he said no - cost of living (primarily housing) was too high.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Stop your H1B paranoia, how many American engineers are working overseas? If you want the opportunity to work overseas then you have to put up with people doing the same in the US.
Beggar,
I think you are spot on. If there is a shortage of engineers why are many engineering salaries struggling to keep up with inflation, why do you never see companies offering relocation packages for engineers? We are just another commodity to be bought and sold and we can only blame our peers and predecessors for that.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Unless they ve choose to emigrate from US and thats' another story.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I find it amazing that some otherwise intelligent people - almost exclusively US citizens - start complaining about engineers from other nations working in their country while being completely blind to the reverse situation. American engineers aren't any better or worse than their European counterparts, so why do some people think they are entitled to be treated as special? Smacks of hypocrisy.
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
By all means, every country should exhaust its own work force before considering allowing folks from other countries to come take the existing jobs.
If there's a shortage in a given area, the answer is training and wage increase, not importation of cheaper foreign labor.
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RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Another hypothetical example, but one which might not be far into the future if we let Country C represent China:
Co. A buy into Co. B in Country C and installs management from the US of A into Co. B. Is that reasonable? How about if the situation reverses and Co. X buys into Co. Y in the US of A and installs a management team from Country C into Co. Y?
I don't see a difference between the two cases, primarily because there isn't one.
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Certainly American corporations may be using some folks from their stateside offices just the Japanese companies will usually bring senior managers from Japan. Is that what you're talking about?
Is there a perception in the UK or elsewhere that Americans are coming in and undercutting the local labor force and suppressing wages?
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RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
only difference is when company C cames in the country A to takeover but the gov says No as it is against national interest see Unicol . Do we want free trade agreements or not or only a partial pick and choose?
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I guess the USA (including immediate neighbours??) is still perceived by its residents as an island in the same way the UK was 100 years ok? We moved on.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Huh?
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RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
But in reality, the outsourcing is one sided. It's the jobs of the people at the bottom being outsourced.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I know of the Ford CEO but he did not last long. any other senior director was only given a job just to facilitate some sort of takeover. Many australian co were bought lately by US firms. By the way a special visa is available for Australians only to work in US if they wish and has nothing to do with H1B
i believe is called E3 but not sure......i guess is for the "effort" in Iraq...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
My word "island" was a (wasted) euphamism for "colonial power". It's fine and dandy to leave one's own island and conquer the funny foreigners, maybe even invite a few back to do menial work. But to have them arrive uninvited and do real work is just not cricket!
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I actually had to re-read opsops' last post because I thouight it said "...only difference is when country C comes in the country A to takeover...". Guess the identity of Country C in this example?
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I think you're misjudging the situation but I suspect that nothing I say will change your view so further comment is a waste of time and space.
Cheers.
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RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
What sickens me more is the significant public support for this bill. Rather than train more US students to work in technology, let's just import them. Why are engineers being so passive about this!?!?! Despite an abundance of engineers they attempt a bill like this. Yet we don't see them doing this in medicine, a field in which there IS a shortage of doctors and nurses. Salaries are finally becoming competitive in engineering so what do they do?... find a way to turn this into another ~35k/yr job.
Everyone thinks that this bill will bring technological talent back to our country, but all it will do is destroy the talent that was already here.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
There is a solution to the both parties screwing you, you vote for a third party.
This is not a wasted vote. In Australia recently it has been the independents that have held the balance of power (i.e. they were needed by either party for a majority vote) and they were able to trade their vote for other bills being passed or get it ammended to their requirements.
Good point about the doctors and nurses, now those are professions that have got their hands tightly on the reins.
opsops3,
I believe the CEO of MacDonalds is an Australian also.
To all those migrant naysayers,
Welcome to the global economy!
There is actually a global shortage of engineers across the globe. You can get a job almost anywhere in the world (I have moved countries twice and never been looking for work more than 2 weeks.) One of the hardest countries to get into is the USA.
When Americas economy collapses, you will be glad that countries let foreign professionals in to work. I did intend to say when, not if. I bet the romans though their little empire would last forever, so did the british.
csd
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
the Australian citizens are eligible for E-3 Treaty Professional Visas
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
There certainly is no shortage of engineers in Canada, and I have the statistics to prove that conclusively. That said, there ARE indeed regional shortages, and shortages at certain levels of experience or in certain fields. When you analyze these shortages, you invariably find that these correspond to years when the marketplace wasn't hiring engineers, or fields which previously were in a protracted "bust" cycle which later recovered. Tough to find engineers with ~10 years experience when the market wasn't HIRING fresh grads 10 years ago! And the Canadian experience has shown that even immigration at ENORMOUS levels- almost twice the number immigrating to Canada per year as the entire output of all of our accredited universities- cannot make this sort of problem go away completely.
I think I can safely venture that THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF ENGINEERS: rather, there's a lack of willingness of firms to pay engineers what they're really worth, to hire them early in their careers and train them etc. Businesses will do these things only when market conditions force them to do so, and they don't like being forced to spend money. So they spend a smaller amount of money on media via their lobby groups to promote the myth of shortage. It's proven to be money very well spent on their part, as governments have proven time and again their willingness to respond by turning on the supply taps. And nobody in our prima donna profession is standing by to close them again when the market overflows...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
the root cause is this: on a dollar to dollar basis/comparison and accomodating the exchange rate: the US engineers( in general) make more that everybody else (except maybe Japan). In addition the cost of living is apparently lower ( again on general basis). That suggest that the net income in US is better than everywhere else.
If this is actually true or valid for everybody is an individual matter.
I also agree that there is a surplus of engineers world wide. many underemployed or underpaid or working in non related occupations.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
The CEO of IBM just a few months ago gave a speech about the shortage of engineers his company is struggling with. A month later, IBM lays off 10,000 people. What a tool.
This bill will hurt entry level more than anything....so much so that I think the number of US students who major in engineering will dwindle to zero.
The deomcrats are pushing this bill hard, and Bush loves the guest worker program too much to veto it. Most republicans hate the bill, but it is unlikely there are enough to filibuster it.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I said a global shortage. North America may be significant economically but it is only a small fraction of the world population. The engineers are drawn to the areas that pay the best, namely North America and Europe, therefore the shortage will be felt the least in those regions.
The immigration is actually a double edged sword, it can flood the market in rich countries but can also act as a 'brain drain' in the poorer countries that are not able to compete with the salaries.
Regalia,
I would like to ammend my statement regarding the doctors. In my region of you look up medical doctor in you yellow pages you get a whole list of foreign names. My doctor is from india. I think that you will find this type of visa arrangement has already been applied to the medical professions for some time.
One thing in the favor of American Engineers is that many states will not let you become a PE unless you are a US citizen/ permanent resident. Unfortunately this means that they will be more likely to compete with US students for entry level jobs.
csd
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Logically, if there is an excessive supply of engineers, our pay should be falling with respect to the rest of the workforce. As a multiple of the median pay, it is in fact rising, since last year the engineers in this company got an average 4.0% rise, the preceeding three years it was 5% pa. Wage 'inflation' in Oz was 3.6% last year, in which we also hit 95% employment, and 3.8% the previous year.
So, this "global" excess seems to be a Canadian phenomenon.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
I wish the yankees stay home and don't steal our jobs.
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
-Angry redneck conservative, South Park
(I hope at least one person in this thread gets this)
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
capital is moving around, jobs are moving around but the freedom of movement is diminishing..........
they obviously have a point
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
The other day I met a friend of mine that just returned from a business trip in New Zealand. Somehow along the lines it came out of the discussion that a majority of large companies in NZ are now in foreign ownership mainly Australian and American.....Americans having a large chunk of the pie.
I guess they buy all things out not only the jobs...hihihihi
RE: S. 1092, The High-Tech Worker Relief Act of 2007
Not really so much Americans as private equity firms and investment banlks that happened to be based in America. These companies bring almost no value to society as a whole either through growth, employment, or taxes. The vast majority of American workers are just pawns to the US financial machine, the same as you.