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Grammar vs Logic
2

Grammar vs Logic

Grammar vs Logic

(OP)
I consider myself about average on grammar, though my spelling and typing skills lag a bit.
Over the weekend a friend was showing me some things he had made in his workshop. He proudly proclaimed that he had "learnt" himself how to do all of it on his own. I quickly interposed that he meant he had taught himself.
He retorted "No, to Teach is to impart knowledge, to learn is to gain knowledge. Since I didn't know how to do it I couldn't impart the knowledge, only gain it. So I learnt it to myself.
Well needless to say as it was a weekend we had had a few drinks so I couldn't rebuff him. What bothers me now is that even in the harsh light of sobriety I still see the logic in his point of view.
Someone help me please, before I start using logic instead of grammar when I speak!!

RE: Grammar vs Logic

Makes sense to me.

RE: Grammar vs Logic

Your first problem is in trying to use the rules of formal logic to understand the rules of English grammar!

"I learnt it myself."

"I taught myself."

Both work for me.

RE: Grammar vs Logic

'he had "learnt" himself'
'So I learnt it to myself.'

Neither of the above is grammatically correct, even if you substitute "learned" for "learnt".

The verb learn does not take an indirect object.  The person who learns is the subject.  The thing that is learned is the direct object.  There is no indirect object.

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RE: Grammar vs Logic

(OP)
electricpete

I have no problem with his choice of word, either is an acceptable past tense for learn, my problem is with the differential between grammatical versus logical usage. How can one express oneself logically in a language that is illogical. But I'll get over it, no one ever promised me a perfect world.
Perhaps just as bad, when I looked it up I found that his usage (#5 below) is a reconised though non-standard usage where learn is equated to teach.
God help us all, anything we say can mean something else to the audience.

learn (lûrn) verb
learned also learnt (lûrnt)  learning, learns verb, transitive
1.    To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
2.    To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.
3.    a. To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle. b. To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
4.    To become informed of; find out. See synonyms at discover.
5.    Non-Standard. To cause to acquire knowledge; teach.
6.    Obsolete. To give information to.

verb, intransitive
To gain knowledge, information, comprehension, or skill: learns quickly; learned about computers; learned of the job through friends.

 [Middle English lernen, from Old English leornian.]
- learn´able adjective
- learn´er noun

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

RE: Grammar vs Logic

learnt in lieu of learned?

is that even a word?

RE: Grammar vs Logic

(OP)
swivel63

"is that even a word?"

Apparently so! I have heard it all my life but assumed it was just "local jargon', mispronunciation, or slang, until I posted the OM here.
I, however, found it was listed in each of the dictionaries I searched, including the Merriam-Webster and Cambridge Dictionaries. It was noted as being a "chiefly British past and past participle of LEARN".

I did not however grow up in Britain, and can attest to the fact that it is alive and thriving in other parts of the world.

RE: Grammar vs Logic

If he learnt himself, without teaching himself, then who was the teacher?

JulianHardy got it right.
"He learnt IT himself". Not "He learnt himself"
"He taught himself".

Costas

RE: Grammar vs Logic

"... is that even in the harsh light of sobriety.... "

What a turn of a phrase. That truly deserves recognition

RE: Grammar vs Logic

He learnt himself makes me think he found out more about himself - maybe taught to him by a psychotherapist?! He would have to teach himself about a subject in order to learn about it.

RE: Grammar vs Logic

Isn't learned used as in 'my learned colleague' not 'I learned myself'?

RE: Grammar vs Logic

Obligatory Simpsons reference:

Pepe:  Oh, Papa Homer, you are so learn`ed.
Homer: Heh heh heh.  Learn'd, son.  It's pronounced learn'd.

RE: Grammar vs Logic

(OP)
Ah ha kchayfie you have hit it on the head, the niggling itch that has kept me from accepting the proffered statement as correct. Alas the problem is in the object, and I was to busy shortsightedly examining the verb.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

RE: Grammar vs Logic

bugeyed

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RE: Grammar vs Logic

WOW, I just learnt something new.  Thanks for learning me!

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