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How do employers view online master's programs?
9

How do employers view online master's programs?

How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
Can anyone in a hiring role (or management position) give any insight as to how an online structural (or any other discipline for that matter) engineering degree is looked upon?  I am considering U of Idaho because it will allow me to "attend" class on my own schedule, but don't want to spend the time if it is looked down on by colleagues and managers.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

2
StructuralEIT,

I've been in a role of hiring for some time and I have to say I've always steered more towards M.S. degree candidates.  

There are good, strong engineers with the B.S. only but for me personally I really became a much better engineer with my M.S.

For online M.S. degrees, if I was confronted with two otherwise equal candidates and one had an "in school" M.S. and the other an online M.S., I would most likely go with the "in school" person.  

My direct contact with my professors on a daily basis, my exposure to other students on a deily basis, the exposure to research in the lab, etc. all offer a superior experience in my opinion.

In addition, I know what graduate schools out there have high reputations in Structural Engineering and I'd question a school's stature if it offered an online program or ONLY offered an onlline program....don't know that I can describe why, or back it up, but maybe just because of my own experience and what I know to be true.

So what I'm saying is - for your direct question on whether an online program would be looked down upon by other managers, I'd say on average yes.  That doesn't mean an online program isn't good or beneficial.  It's just that there are many engineers out there that would be unaware of how good the online format is and be suspicious.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

depends on the university.  but i'd still look at it kind of cockeyed if it was online.  

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

A degree on a resume is a degree on a resume.  Frankly, the outreach degree from a reputable institution, such as U of I mentioned by the OP, is more of an achievement than one taken on campus.  On campus the course work is your principal priority.  The outreach approach (not online per se) means fitting in all the work of a graduate level course around the rest of your life.  It is not a walk in the park.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

davidbeach, you might be right, but I don't think the issue is whether the online degree takes more effort.  The important issue is whether those who get through an online MS degree program carry the same quality of credentials, knowledge, skills, etc. compared to other who go through an on-campus degree program....on average.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
I live in the Philadelphia area, so my other option would be a master's at Villanova.  I don't know how that program is viewed outside of the area, but I like it because no math or physics are required (not that I have anything againt them, but I don't view anything above and beyond what I have already taken as being very helpful to me).  I could take (10) structural engineering design and analysis classes for the degree.  The problem there is cost.  While my employer would pay for some, it is a fraction of the total cost (less than 1/3).  

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
JAE-
A star for you for your honest and insightful post.  Could you give me a quick list of the better structural engineering master's programs (in your opinion)?  If Drexel and/or Villanova are not on the list, please tell me how you view them.
Can I ask what area of the country you are in?

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

I looked at on line masters programs a couple of times. I started once or twice, but haven't finished. I did find the additional training valuable and would like to try again.

I think there are two objectives, get good training and get the most widely recognized credential. If your going to make the sacrifice, might as well get as much value from it as you can.

I decided on the following method for my next attempt:

Go to the US News and World Report on top engineering graduate schools
- > http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/eng/brief/engrank_brief.php

Start at the top of the list and work down to find the best university that offers a distance learning program in the field I’m interested in.

Look for a degree that is indistinguishable from the degree students receive if they attend on campus.

Good Luck,

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StructuralEIT -

I am in the same position of hiring as JAE and hire MS only for structural analysis and design work.

My opinions of advanced degrees through distance education depends mainly on what I'm looking for.  For example if our need is a design position then I'm open to a distance education with a Masters by way of examination.  If we require advance concepts or familiarity with laboratory work then I look for traditional education.

As for the institution, I'm a big fan of what you put into it is more important that where you received your degree.  That does require a lot of interaction in the interview process.  I do like to be thorough.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Hey - one other dimension to this, which Qshake reminded me of, is that at my own grand university, I had the choice as to go either thesis or non-thesis for the MS degree.

The theory at the time was that a non-thesis was presented more for those who would go on to consulting, whereas the thesis option was for those planning to continued on with a Ph.D., research, or teaching.

I went non-thesis.  The online degrees naturally may tend to be more non-thesis as you cannot perform on-site research projects.  I've never, as a hiring person, worried too much about the thesis vs. non-thesis status of my interviewees, but I would think the focus of the non-thesis might be more geared towards practice vs. research.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
Well, you have certainly given me much to ponder.  I am sort of feeling a little substandard at the moment knowing how most of you feel about those of us engineers without a master's.  It is definitely good information to be armed with, though.  
JAE and Qshake-
Do you both have these opinons regardless of circumstances?  For example, would you rather see someone who got a B.S. and M.S. without working between or see the M.S. after some real world experience?  
Also, I don't think the U of Idaho program is "online" so much as it is distance education.  The recorded classes would be sent on dvd and all homeworks and proctered tests are still due.  
How do you feel about certificate programs for people who aren't interested in the broader M.S.?  I have noticed that an increasing number of schools are offering "Structural Engineering Certificates" as an alternative to a master's.  This usually involves 6-8 structural analysis and design classes without the physics and math classes.
Finally, do you feel that people learn things in a master's program that they won't learn on the job?  Does it just give you greater confidence in their abilities?  Does your opinion on this phase out with engineers who have more experience (say 8-10 years)?
Thanks for letting me pick your brains!!

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

there's a book on best grad programs in the nation for specific engineering disiplines as well.  that list is for overall as a college.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StructuralEIT,

I would welcome Qshake's and others opinions on this as well, here's a few thoughts:

How do you feel about certificate programs - never heard of them but I would certainly value someone's 6-8 structural classes post B.S. degree.  

...do you feel that people learn things in a master's program that they won't learn on the job? - I did.  What happened with me is that I came back through the MS program and all sorts of light bulbs started going off in my head.  Structural analysis began to make sense.  I understood the relationship between the Flexibility method and the Stiffness Method.  I understood matrix analysis, post-tensioned concrete, plastic design, and dynamics.  Essentially, my MS degree took my rudimentary B.S. knowledge and converted it into real tools that I could apply to real projects.

Does it just give you greater confidence in their abilities? Not just....but actually gives me confidence that they have a good grasp of engineering principles.  This is not to say that those with B.S. degrees don't...many do very well and I'm sure there are better engieners than I with just the B.S. degree.  But my own personal experience with grad school tells me that very few who do have the M.S. will come out of grad school lacking in skills.

Does your opinion on this phase out with engineers who have more experience (say 8-10 years)?
- To some extent yes, but that depends a whole lot on three things:
   1.  The individual - i.e. do they continue to self-educate themselves  - seriously studying codes, design methods, etc.
   2.  The kinds of projects they have to work on.
   3.  The mentors they get to work under.

One last thing - I worked two years for a design firm (in-office design and out on the construction sites) between my B.S and my M.S. and that certainly helped me understand how my pretty pictures actually get built.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

i went non-thesis as well.....and just TA'd introductory mechanics to pay the bills.  and we had to take more classes than the thesis guys.  

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
swivel-
what is the name of that book?

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

the actual us news and world report book, lol....i guess i should have been more specific.  you can find it borders or barnes and noble.  it lists the top 10 programs (not sure how they come up with it) in each field from CE to ME to CHME, ect.  it has a sea blue cover on it.  the undergrad lists is an orange book.  it doesn't exactly separate into specific practices like structural or transpo, though.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StructuralEIT - check out the link I posted above.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

To answer the original question about online degrees.  How would they know you attended classes online unless you told them or the school was obvious (U of Pheonix etc)?  Most online degrees I have looked into give you the same exact degree as on campus students.  It is not worded differently.  

You have the same teacher, same homework and same tests.  I might pursue an online MSEM.  It is a local school, but I would much rather have my own schedule then worry about finding the classes I need at night and spending another hour on the road commuting back and forth.

And, as someone said, the classes aren't necesarily easier online.  And you will find yourself without help if your communication is not kept up.

I will most likely be going non-thesis.  Since I am going with an online degree a thesis kind of defeats the purpose of giving me more free time with my family.  In addition to classes about the thesis I would have to be writing my butt off! ;)  Difficult with a two year old ;)

My company will not even ask if I have to write one.  Some schools don't even offer them.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
cksh-
I wouldn't volunteer that it is an online degree, but if I live and work in the Philadelphia area and my degree is not from a Philadelphia area school, it is pretty obvious.  I would not be picking a non-local school on purpose, I just have not found a local school with a master's program that is not on-campus.


All-
Does anyone have any pointers for finding out if a school has an online (or any kind of distance education) master's program?  I search through many college websites but can not come across this information easily.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

You'd probably want to simply call their Admissions office or the Engineering office of each school directly to discuss.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

I found this link as I was doing my own search on this topic:

http://distance.gradschools.com/

You can follow the menus and get a list of schools with your engineering discipline. It's probably not all-inclusive, but it gives you a start.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

You may have seen my own earlier post regarding how much an online engineering masters degree is worth compared to an on-campus degree.

The two deciding factors for me will be intent and alternatives. Hope this might help you in your decision.

Intent - How do I want the degree to help me in my career?

1.Do I want to gain new knowledge to use at my current company, whether in my current position or to help with earning a promotion?
2. Do I want to branch into a new field or area of specialization?
3. Do I want to use the degree as a stepping stone to an academic career?

Alternatives - How will I achieve 1, 2, or 3 above without resorting to distance education?

1. Is part time work/part time school feasible at a local university? (Is the local university's program better/worse than potential distance program?)
2. Can I financially manage doing a full-time Master's program (local/relocate)?
3. Is my OTJ education enough to get ahead without the Master's?
4. Can I get a job in another industry by just transferring skills I already have?

'Course the ultimate factor for me is supporting the fam. I don't think I can afford a 75% pay cut, so it's distance education or none at all!



RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
possumk-
I did not see your other post that you mention.  Can you direct me to it?

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StructuralEIT -

On the matter of the inquiries posted on 22 April.

Opinions on MSCE/BSCE regardless of circumstances - For the most part I do, and the circumstances would have to be impressive.  As I noted earlier, I am willing to interview and hire the MSCE with time between undergraduate work if that is what I'm looking for.  However, since I'm engaged in technology work too, it benefits our group to have MSCE with lab work which is generally earned immediately following undergraduate.  And please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all MSCE with lab experience (or even without) are the best, I've interviewed many of MSCE candidates that didn't seem to have their feet on the ground.

Regarding certificate programs  - The ones I've seen are typically 3-4 classes or 9-12 hours of instruction.  As with JAE, I value coursework done post degree.  However, I would note that it would depend a lot on what the coursework was.

In my opinion I do beleive students in a masters program learn things not learned on the job.  My opinion doesn't change for someone with 8-10 years of experience unless that experience is very impressive and the individual has clearly performed at a level exceeding the expectations of most engineers.


I've read JAE's post and agree with his assessment, the MSCE degree provided me with tools beyond that offered at the BSCE level and futher fueled my interest in pursuing a third degree in an emerging technology.  That has opened an additional set of tools that I can offer clients and my staff.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
As far as the online MS goes - USC offers an online MS for Structural Engineering and that school is in the top ten according to US News and World Report.
I had my 1-year review recently and I will most likely be starting a MS program this fall.
I was surprised to hear some of what my boss had to say about a master's program.  He said most of it can be self-taught, but the benefit of going through a program is that you are allotting specific time slots to sit down and learn it (obviously the guidance of a professor helps).

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

The online masters program invites abuse. My boss used his sec'y to type his homework and mail in his packages. It was a masters program from the NE. The sec'y did not enjoy the experience, and she complained frequently about it.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Do you think that typing and mailing are essential parts of a Masters in Engineering?

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StrlEIT typed: "...I was surprised to hear some of what my boss had to say about a master's program.  He said most of it can be self-taught, but the benefit of going through a program is that you are allotting specific time slots to sit down and learn it (obviously the guidance of a professor helps)."

I think your boss is correct.  Sure, one COULD sit down with a book and crank through the whole thing without a class, but I don't know anybody who would do that!  

For one thing, just add up the number of hours it would take.  A busy design engineer isn't going to obliterate every evening and weekend for months on end to self-teach finite element analysis, for example.  

Without some serious motivation (like a degree), it would be kinda sad if somebody DID do that, IMO, LOLOL.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

271828 -

A diploma should never be the means to an end but rahter an end to the means.  I didn't earn a BS, MS because the papers look good.  In fact, I don't care at all that I earned a diploma but that I had the opportunity to learn and understand.  That is what I paid the University for, not for the diploma.

That said, it is a rare person indeed who can sit down and learn a full subject of complex material and then to do so in say 16 weeks (a semester).  It takes some professors years to provide course content that is up to date why would a person expect to learn FEA in 16 short weeks by independent stduy.

Of course, there are those courses that can be learned via independent study, for me those are design classes and examples are Wood and Masonry

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Qshake, I kinda agree with your first paragraph.  I think it's just too much to expect most people to self-study most grad level classes without a degree hanging in the balance.  

That's all I was saying--perhaps ineffectively!

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
Ego's and stories aside, have you found FEA to be helpful in your actual work environment?
I have heard from meany people that have taken it that it is interesting but is meant for programs and you will never use it for hand calcs.  I certainly have no intention of taking it.
I will be attending Villanova in the fall and I intend to spend my (10) classes on practical classes - advanced steel, advanced concrete, wood and masonry, prestressed concrete, structural dynamics, etc...

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StructuralEIT, funny you should add structural dynamics to your list and leave out FEA as a non-practical method not lending itself to handcalcs.  Structural Dynamics is the application of models and differential equations and beyond a simple 2DOF system, computers are required.

What you gain from structural dynamics and FEA and the others is an appreciation for the theory, applications and why the code is presented as it is.  

In both advanced steel and concrete you should see topics like torsion on steel boxes and two way slabs/yield line theory....neither of which are particularly helpful in hand calculations but both can be done by FEA if done right.

Lastly, your assuming that many in the forum are civil/structural, but what about the engineering mechanics folks for whom FEA is just another tool like your concrete and steel.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

StrlEIT, I wouldn't say that I ever did hand calcs or programmed with FEA on the job, but it's important to know about what the programs are doing.  There are lots of gotchas in modeling that might not be obvious otherwise and shells are often used in models nowadays.

Here's the first example that comes to mind.  Say you have a shearwall modeled with shells and a beam is connected to one of the nodes in the wall.  Depending on your situation, you might get in trouble with the "drilling" degree of freedom.  This should be completely obvious after coming out of a FEA class.  Folks might somehow get that one anyway, especially because the Help in some common programs mention it, but I think it's a fair example.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Qshake, not really disagreeing with you, but if I had to choose one or the other for a designer, I'd rather see them know something about strl dynamics than FEA.  Those terms can be completely baffling otherwise!

This reminds me of something--complete thread tangent.  I've just spent quite a bit of time with the upcoming UK SCI floor vibration design guide.  Those guys sure expect designers to know a lot more about vibrations than we do in the US!!  They have a "simplified" method that's about 50% harder than AISC's DG11 Chapter 4 and a "general" method that is probably hard enough to deter pretty much anybody I know from trying to use it, vibe specialists excluded of course.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

This thread has been going for quite a while now, and I think I have shown great restraint so far (honestly, I have wanted to post this from the second I saw this thread StructuralEIT and I do apologise)

BUT....

QUESTION: How do employers view online master's programs?

ANSWER: By logging on to the internet! TAA DAA

And again...Sorry for being frivalous

Kevin

“Insanity in individuals is something rare, but in groups, parties, nations and epochs it is the rule” Nietzsche

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

(OP)
QSHAKE-
Are you saying that graduate classes will help you with nothing more than to have a better understanding of what the software is doing since you most likely won't actually use many things learned in an advanced steel or concrete class either?
Also, I wasn't assuming that everyone else in the forum was civil/structural, but that is what is relevant to me so that is all I would concern myself with in choosing classes.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

structuraleit -

I'm noting that the courses you've chosen (as with most graduate courses) the material is not trivial and as such is not usually done by hand.  You will be required to do the analysis by hand with the aide of some computer programs for your homework or projects.  But come exam time it will hand calcs unless a take home is given.

What is intended by the college/professor is that you understand how the method of solution is derived and the restrictions placed on the method of solution.  These restrictions are often regurgitated in the code thus you'll have a better understanding of why AISC or ACI has developed the code they have.  You'll be able to see when the code is applicable and when it is not.  And in the real world beyond simple structures it doesn't often fit right in nice and neatly.  Lastly you'll understand the software that is used to apply to these applications (boxes or slabs).  

In my career (academic and professional) I have only found the usual design courses to be immediately applicable to use and with hand calculations.  Those include timber, masonry, and prestressed concrete which are all taught at the graduate level.  Most everything else is too complicated.

as for the FEA, you first asked if it was useful as a course.  My response is that for some engineers the course is very useful because they use it day in day out just as we use tools such as concrete or steel design.

Regards,
Qshake
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RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

I am in a similar position and am looking for suggestions. I have been in my current job function for almost a year now (mechanical design engineer for a top Automotive OEM Manufacturer). I have been thinking alot about getting my MS degree lately. I have been looking into one of these new "hybrid" degrees...MS in Product Development Engineering. I work about 10 minutes from the University of Michigan but unfortunately they don't have a masters program in product development engineering. The reason I want this degree is to blend business and engineering aspects into one degree which will allow me to be a better product development and design engineer. I have been looking at the online DEN MS program and University of Southern California in Product Development Engineering and this is looking very attractive to me. I will have the grades and test scores to get in here, the question is how would it be perceived? It's quite obvious that the degree is online because I work in Michigan and the school is in Cali. Should I just go for it?  I mean, the curriculum/degree would allow me to be a more competent engineer and expand my skill and knowledge set. I wish Univ. of Michigan offered this degree but they don't, and all other schools in Michigan are too far away from where I work/live to effectively commute, work, and go to school. What do you guys think about my situation? USC is a very well known and highly regarded school with a well known, regarded, and ranked engineering school. At this point, I don't want to give up my job, which I love, or the salary, which I need, to go to school full time. Plus, work will cover most of the bill. Suggestions? Comments?  Thanks in advance.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Yay for product development, but.... I wonder how much you'd get from an academic telling you about it?

If the syllabus includes the following then run away

TRIZ
Six Sigma

If it includes the following then maybe it'll help

Correlating objective and subjective ratings
incorporating customer wants and needs into the design
Handling incompatible requirements
Systems engineering
Target setting

My honest opinion is that in the automotive business a bachelors degree is enough of a technical baseline, and you'll learn faster and deeper if you specialise on the job rather than at uni.

As to the business side of things, there is no question that a good understanding of company financials and so on helps.

OTOH if you are keen and they are paying, why not? Beats watching TV.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Greg, thank you for your insight.  Here is the curriculum requirement:
Required Courses (Core Courses):
- Advanced Mechanical Design
- Technology Development and Implementation

Technical Electives: (2 from the following list)
- Engineering Economy
- Modern Enterprise Systems
- Design of Experiments
- Quality Mgmt for Engineers
- Systems Engineering Theory and Practice
- Economic Analysis of Engineering Projects
- Advanced Concepts in Computer Simulation
- Strategic Mgmt of Technology
- Project Mgmt
- Mgmt of Engineering Teams

General Electives: Select 3 courses from the Mechanical Engineering dept.

This curriculum isn't a 6-sigma based thing. Much more comprehensive. From the Tech Electives list I would be inclined to take Design of Experiments (DOE)and some sort of business engineering combined course from that list.

RE: How do employers view online master's programs?

Looks pretty reasonable. I personally would skip DoE, you can learn enough to be dangerous in a 2 day course some other time.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

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