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The engineering challanges of living with global warming
9

The engineering challanges of living with global warming

The engineering challanges of living with global warming

(OP)
Rather than continuing to hijack the thread on Saudi oil, I thought I would start a new thread...

Drillernic said in the Saudi Oil thread:

“However if anthropogenic global warming is fact, it may be too late to do anything about it when the arguments have finished, so perhaps the wisest course of action is to do something about CO2 emissions just in case?”

If my (perhaps pessimistic) friend moltenmetal is correct, then messing with CO2 emissions is a waste of time and effort. Perhaps we ought to take on the engineering challange to begin adapting human civilization to higher global temperatures, beginning by:

Start relocating pacific islanders.

Stop all development of the Florida peninsula

Start development of a New Orleans style water handling systems for London, New York, and other major cities…

Start relocating New Orleans inland.

Further development of drought resistant crops.

Although as certain parts of the globe become unlivable, migration will happen naturally.

What other engineering problems and solutions do you see as a result of adapting human civilization to higher global temperatures?

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Lets start with designing a new planet.

This one was not designed to have 6.5 billion people living on it...we need something bigger.

Multi level...with climate control.

Alternatively, several thousand smaller versions of earth with high speed transportation between them...no actually scrub the transport links.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

hydromesch.  
Slardy Bartfast - one of the great engineers of all time.  Where is he when you need him?

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

BJC,

Off designing fjords for someone who can afford his talents......something tells me that he would be well out of the price range of this planet

Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
 

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Is it wrong to be excited about the prospect of the new, large, exciting projects addressed by sms?

I recall reading that in the not-so-distant future, that the oceans will be pretty well fished out.  Global warming can provide new habitat for these fish and maybe save seafood.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

If we use all the fish up then they'll stop eating the algae, which will take over the sea, and as it grows it absorbs CO2 from the sea, which absorbs it from the air. When the algae dies it falls to the seabed and becomes calcium carbonate, sequestering the CO2.

Therefore to reduce global warming (if it exists) we should eat more fish, just like your mom said.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

It won't matter what the engineers and scientists do or say.  The politicians will booger it up, anyhow.

The one thing that global warming has shown is that hard science has no place in politics.  If something can't be warped into a catchy and nearly-true soundbite, it won't become policy.  The public is not able to comprehend the issues in a meaningful way, and he politicians will make decisions along those lines.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

"The one thing that global warming has shown is

that hard science has no place in politics."


....and that politics has no place in hard science.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Given that underground temperatures stay roughly constant it may be wise to build underground or undersea cities to escape the higher on-land temperatures. Undersea cities would be the better option though as you could just then pop out and grab yourself a fish for tea, and thus help reduce global warming. Being undersea and not being confined to driving on one fixed plane would also help reduce traffic congestion in this new aqua-topia. It has potential.

corus

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

(OP)
Corus outlines an interesting solution...

My whole point is that when global warming alarmists like Al Gore talk about the subject, the implication is that this is the end of mankind, we're all gonna die!!! The truth is that regardless of cause or effect, human kind will adapt.

The latest one is that the bees are disappearing (theoretically due to cell phone usage). Since the bees will not be there to pollinate the crops, this will result in food shortages, and we're all gonna die!!

But even if the bee's are gone, I suspect that engineers will come up with a solution to the pollination problem and food will continue to be readily availble...

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Quote (CORUS):

... it may be wise to build underground or undersea cities to escape the higher on-land temperatures.

I saw the movie Dr. Strangelove on cable this morning.  Interesting parallel...

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Yup.  When Mom told us kids not to play with matches she didn't know what she was talking about.  New houses can be built, so why worry about matches?

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

sms:

well, we are all gonna die- nobody gets out of this place alive.

Also, the bees will be back, just as soon as they are done making their cell phone calls to the other bees.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

(OP)
Sorry Pete, I don't see that as a valid analogy. It would be closer if no one knew that house could be burnt down, because no one had ever played with matches before. Then when the house caught on fire it went up so fast there was nothing that could be done about it.

At that point the only choice is to relocate or build a new house.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

2
The problems of shifting climates is more of an economics (investment, supply and demand) problem, not an engineering one.  The solutions are there, no one wants to bother with the ecomonic burdens.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

There is no guarantee that a child playing with matches will burn down the house,just like there is no proof-positive guarantee that our present emissions practices  will significantly affect the climate.

But a lack of proof positive is a lot different than suggesting no-one knew it could...

http://www.ipcc.ch/

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

But mine was a poor analogy from the standpoint that a kid playing with matches serves no useful purpose (unless he's going to grow up to be an scientist who invents some new combustion process).    In contrast, the burning of fossil fuels does meet a need.

I like hydromech's idea. All we have to do is figure out how to build a new planet.  I think it should have individual climate control for each person, just like the new cars have.  And most importantly, no brussel sprouts on the new planet.

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Or sweetcorn. Definitely no sweetcorn!
 

----------------------------------
  Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

(OP)
Pete,

I guess what I was getting is that when Henry Ford put the auto into production, or when the industrial age began and factories started belching out smoke, they probably figured out pretty quickly that pollution could be a localized problem, but no one knew that it could cause climate change. The solution to pollution is dilution was the idea, and so smoke in the air could not be a problem because it was diluted.

If it had been apparent back in the late 1800s that CO2 emissions would be a problem I think that industrial development may well have evolved differently.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

I like the premise of this thread--it looks like the planet is heating up, what are the engineering options to maintain current increases in real quality of life.  I'm just about convinced that the planet is heating up in the short term, I'm not even slightly convinced that people have anything to do with the change.  

Maybe enough gloom and doom in the "catchy and mostly true soundbytes" would fund a space program to spread the human race through the galaxy a la Heinlein or Asimov.  It won't help the population pressure on Earth since folks will breed faster than you can build ships, but it certainly creates a boom time for engineers.

David

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Running away from the problem, or even flying, doesnt solve the problem, nor does saying It wasnt me! help either. The problem looming in either engineering terms or in conflict, will be access to water, or producing sufficient water to meet the needs of a population for certain drought ridden areas. It seems odd to me that they can think of ways of doing it on Mars but somehow cant do the same here where two thirds of the planet is covered in the stuff.

corus

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Send space ship B out with all the telephone sanitizers, hair dressers, and middle managers........

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Responding to Corus...

We have all the water we could ever need.  You just need the power to treat it and get it to where it needs to go.  It all comes back to energy production (green or not).  Considering how the water/wastewater infrastructure is falling apart in the US due to decades of neglect by government, I would not expect this to become a focus anytime soon.  

Great point about Mars though!!!  The funny part is that we could sustain a few billion of us here on earth for what we spend to keep 8 astronauts in space.  Perhaps a bit exagerated, but the analogy certainly proves that it's absense of priority not lack of technology.  Can't blame the engineers for that.

It is indeed a serious issue...but consider that not even Al Gore did much to bring about change despite his 8 years in a highly influential position.  Many will likely die, but the majority will successfully adapt when the time comes.  Civilization will continue.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

How do you cope with global warming?  By using MORE energy, of course!

This is a problem which has no engineering solution.  While fossil CO2 emission to the atmosphere remains "free", no technology will be used to deal with it.  But we'll always find the money to "cope" with the consequences.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

"But we'll always find the money to "cope" with the consequences"

Finally an optimistic message from you, moltenmetal! I also think we will always find the money and the technology to manage problems, as we have always done (acid rain, millennium bug, the ozone layer is expected to recover according to the IPCC). The question though is what to spend the money on. Should we spend it on climate change, of which we don't even know if our CO2 causes it, or should we spend it on AIDS for example. I don't think anybody ever died of climate change yet. You can't really claim the same thing about AIDS. Let's get our priorities right.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Sure, epoisses:  let's do BOTH- let's put a huge tax on gasoline and the other fuels we're wasting on commuter SUVs and McMansions and other stupidity and use it to prevent AIDS (and malaria) in sub-Saharan Africa!  You'll get no objection from me!

But you're being disingenuous in your argument.  What you already feel, as expressed clearly in other posts you've made, is that you already pay enough for fuel.  And you do pay about double what we here in North America, so you do have a point. (I'd like to see fuel here cost closer to what it costs you in Europe- then perhaps we'd see our auto fleet energy performance improve to levels seen in Europe!).  

But what you really want is to simply keep on doing what we're already doing and to pay no more for it than you already do until there's hard proof that spending more is necessary.  AIDS is just a red herring.  And you won't get the "proof" you need until the climate is irreparably damaged.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

"AIDS is just a red herring."

Come on, just read what you just wrote moltenmetal. I think you are now taking me for some kind of heartless cynic. I happen to have a friend in South-Africa. When I was there the other day he told me casually (trying to sound casually, rather) that he had had to find a new household lady twice in a row since the previous visit (1.5 year ago). Oh yeah, I went, how is that? Well because of AIDS he answered.

So, red herring or whatever you want to call it if you think it happens far enough away from you, but it's a reality that 25% of South-Africans have AIDS and there are countries where it's worse.

So should I now ask you the same question in return, do you think we are spending enough on this issue, should we keep doing what we are doing?

Or do you think the money comes from two very different wallets, not from communicating vessels that are together just one and the same amount?

Let me put it differently again. Climate change is a luxury problem. Don't have the guts to go into an African ghetto (whichever one) and talk about your climate change problem. In some of them you hardly find anyone to talk to after the AIDS virus has passed by.

Let's solve the biggest and most urgent problems first please.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

The fact of the matter is, the money allocated for solving the global warming problem is just plain not being made available to solve the AIDS crisis.  AIDS in Africa is also assigned a zero cost to us here in the so-called "developed world".  You can argue with the morality of that fact and I would agree with you, but the fact remains.  To compare the money "wasted" fighting climate change to what good it could do in the battle against AIDS is disingenuous, regardless how heartfelt your concern for AIDS sufferers clearly is.

As I said, I'd be happy to have government raise some taxes to take some of the money currently wasted on our voluntary excesses with respect to fossil fuels, and spend it to reduce the deaths caused by AIDS, or malaria, or suicides, or auto crashes, or obesity, or respiratory ailments, or whatever preventable cause of premature death you or I might wish to choose.  I'd be less happy to have the tax money spent on hospitals and schools, or thrown in a pile and burned- but ANY of these choices would deter wasteful consumption, and that mere fact alone would be good for the planet.

Individuals contribute what they feel like when they can- but these problems, whether they be AIDS or global warming, need the force of the economy to solve them properly.  The only force capable of altering the economic equation in the correct directions is government.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

As soon as we accomplish the scientific reversal of global warming, a volcano will erupt spewing enough garbage into the atmosphere to ruin all our hard work.

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

I do not feel that global warming will be successfully addressed through either governmental or economic means.  If it can be addressed at all, it will require a societal/cultural change that would likely be quite painful (especially to those of us who live in the US).  I know for a fact that shifting ever closer to a "green" lifestyle would cause and is causing my family and I some "hardship".  Our lives are a bit less flexible and it is currently more expensive.  It is however, a choice we have made to attempt.

Society as a whole needs to change first as it is what truly drives both the economies of countries and governments.  Both of which contain huge forces that would react adversely to such change.  We rely on our governments to keep our best interests in mind.  As such, there is a polarizing effect in international relations and cooperation.

Shifting to a "green" economy would be tremendously disruptive to a number of large and powerful corporations.  If by their very nature, they cannot accommodate change, they will resist change to the best of their ability in a bid for sheer survival.

Can success be realized against global warming?  Not if we do not even try.  It is however going to be a painful and disruptive time to go through at least in my opinion as I do not see any easy solutions.

Regards,

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

climate change is a fact of life ... personally i think it is driven by that great big glowing ball in the sky each day.

that said, i agree with a previous poster that we probably should be doing more sensible things with regards to the environment.  personally, i wonder about the effectiveness of fuel cells ... aren't you moving the pollution from one source to another ? how much energy does it take to make a fuel cell ? is it energy efficient, or does that even matter ('cause we're doing for it's other advantages) ?

again, from my personal veiwpoint, i believe climate change is inevitable, and that we as engineers should be thinking about practical solutions to the problems it causes (protecting low-lying land).  i disagree with some posters above, who premise that the world will become uninhabitable.

now, today the UN "scientists" say we have 15 years to turn things around.  what BS !!  if we turn things around in 16 years we're doomed ??  finally, personally, i believe this global warming is just a scare tactic to get people to do the "right" thing since obviously we're stubbornly not.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Hope I am not hijacking this thread, I believe that CO2 levels are increasing as are the earths surface temperatures, but I have not seen anyone provide a link between the two issues.

My belief is that curbing population growth and even reducing population is the way to go, but it won’t happen.

Anyway, to my question…

Has anyone see the TV program called ‘The Great Global Warming Swindle’ shown on UK tv? This contained interviews with climate scientists (mostly North American) whose names and works were allegedly attached to UN IPCC reports against their will, even though they disagree with the IPCC findings.

The program showed that many proponents of global warming have a vested interest in ‘proving’ that it is related to CO2 levels since it gives them a damn good living. If global warming was found to be caused by anything other than rising CO2 levels then their scientific credibility would be questioned and their livelihoods would disappear.

This program also suggested that the statistics used by Al Gore were a tad misinterpreted. One example of this was a huge wall chart trending CO2 and earth surface temperature against time, with the x-axis (time) covering several gazillion years, and showing a distinct correlation between CO2 levels and surface temperatures. However, when any small section of the graph was expanded around any given time, the trends showed that rather than changes in surface temperatures following changes in CO2 levels, it was the other way round, with increases in CO2 levels lagging behind surface temperatures by about 800years. The changes in surface temperature were attributed to ‘wobbles’ in the earths orbit causing variations in the distance from the sun. Variations in surface temperature then changed the solubility of CO2 in the oceans – as things warmed through, more CO2 came out of the sea.

I saw this program a couple of months ago. I would have thought that if it was true, then the airlines and other CO2 villains would have been using it as evidence to support their own causes, but I don’t see this happening. There is some ‘bad science’ somewhere.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

you can download the program The Global Warming Swindle for free at www.channel4.com.  In my home town I demanded that the school board resign or show this video after they made my kids watch the Uncle Al infomertial.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

dcasto,
Did they relent and give fair time to program?

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

You know what... we've spent so much time talking about this issue now, and we have not got much further.

As far as I can see there are 4 parties involved:

1. The sceptical scientists, Bjorn Lomborg is the most prominent example (and there are many among us), who try to find out for themselves what is best using their brains and available statistics.
2. The environmentalists, who are obsessed by the subject of global warming, because it ties in to many of their ideas: globalisation, mass consumption, cars, planes and the "fact" (?) that we should all go back to pre-urban stress-free lifestyle because we'd be better off. Throw in some religious guilty feeling and what you get is a vision of the world based on something totally different than group 1's vision, hence a complete misunderstanding between both groups.
3. Politicians and other clever guys like Al Gore, who use the subject to their advantage.
4. The "masses" who are susceptible to anything that is in fashion.

Groups 1 and 2 shout but have little if no bottom line impact. Group 3 does have bottom line impact by manipulating group 4. Group 4 will have itself manipulated as it always has, as long as it does not cost *too* much money. It's as simple as that.

Global warming is in fashion. The EU requires air makers to lower CO2 emissions. This is the only major action taken as far as I am aware (this may just be my ignorance).

Actually reducing encon is not a bad thing to do in the base case, global warming or not. As long as we are not spending insane fortunes because we think we have to because of all the news about global warming, I think it probably won't hurt to spend *some* money and reduce CO2 emissions, if it creates something to hold on to for many people, in this age of disappearing religion and other points of reference. For the same reason I think I will pick my battles and stop trying to convince groups 2 and 4 - I have no interest anyway except my own wallet and my feeling of disgust when I see other people swallow nonsense.

*cynic mode off...*

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

I would guess that the teaching of global warming in schools is on a par with the teaching of any religion - you only ever get a one sided approach.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

A relative timeline to this discussion can be found here:
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/timeline.htm

Also, an interesting artiocle here:
http://www.rense.com/general75/who.htm

Seems to me the problem is not the production or reduction of CO2, but rather the reconstitusion of it, if possible.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

As engineers we have to look at reality, which may well be only a political reality.  
It means work for engineers.  Wheather or not you believe in global warming is irrelavant. New types of power plants are going to be built, new types of vehicle power system developed, CO2 is going to be sequesterd etc. etc.
If the US wants to ignore the problem ( real or not) the Europeans, Japanese and Chinese will engineer and build that equipment and systems.  The US will continue in a downward sprial becoming a classical "colony" producing raw materials and crops ( wheat, corn and soybeans ) for the rest of the world.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

From epoisses,

"You know what... we've spent so much time talking about this issue now, and we have not got much further."

A good statement, showing we are but a microcosm of humanity at large.

Regards,

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

I've not heard a word from the school board.  My kids at the school have been told the the alternative to the Al Gore movie is "We are living in the alternative, there is nothing else to talk about".  All three kids have been told they think their parents are cool and they agree with us.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

"You know what... we've spent so much time talking about this issue now, and we have not got much further."

where do you want to get to ?  we don't have the answers, just a bunch of questions and opinions ...

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Maybe just human nature.  While it's arrogant for anyone here to think they have a glimmer of hope to change anyone else's opinion on such a polarized subject, I'm guessing that people on all sides experience some frustration that after carefully analysing and "explaining" (from the viewpoint of the explainer, but usually not the receiver) certain technical or political aspects of the discussion, others are not in the least swayed.

I had compiled a list of respectable organizations that tell us the same thing the IPCC tells us.  NASA, NOAA, NAS, Hadley Center and a lot more.   Most of these organizations that made their name outside of the global warming arena... they don't have to exagerate or sensationalize anything to retain their prestige.  Many of these organizations have the biggest and the best climate models in the world.  On the other side for the most part  are smaller organizations and indvididuals who made their fame in the global warming debate and whose main contributions are criticizing the models of others, rather than presenting their own models.  If you're the small kid in the block and want to get some attention, throw a stone at the big kid on the block.  Seems to have worked so far.

The Hadley center publishes their results and methodology and uncertainty analysis in detail.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/index.html

Where is the website on the other side that provides the model telling us we have nothing to worry about, and where is their uncertainty analysis?

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

A model is just that, a model, not reality.  The way we make emperical based models is to take known equations and refit them based on measured laboratory data.  The problem is we do not have laboratory data.  When you go to the lab you hold some of the variables constant so you can model how the others interact.  We can not model the earth and global warming because we cannot create a lab like Scott Adams did.  But we can get close with all kinds of assumptions, including wrong assumptions and man doesn't like to be told he is wrong.

The day the modelers can tell me the exact weather for my area is the day I'll beleive their other nature models.  Meanwhile I'm sitting here in my home town in the northern hemisphere waiting on a an 18" snow storm just 25 miles away while the other model says its going to be just a wet slushy mix that would equal about 4" of snow, if it were solid.

As for all these centers, follow the money.  They each stand to get grants to study stuff. Global warming is a fact, its just the root cause uncle Al is proposing is off a smidgin' in astophysical and geological terms.

By the way, where were all those hurricanes predicted last year?  It looks more like a Monte Carlo similation is at work here to me.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

An optimum earth population with developed standards of living for all should be under four billion humans.  Questions of how to convince 25% of the living to cease living and the rest to lessen procreation rates is a fair start on methods to cure anthrological climate change.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

The population is going to be reduced, one way or another.  Anyone who looks at a poulation curve has got to be able to see this can't go on indefinately.  

So, any volunteers for sterilization? ;)

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

Time for the ChemE's and Biotechs to create Soyant Green manufacturing plants.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

You don't need volunteers for sterilization or Soylent Green (made from people!).  All you need is prosperity to be shared a fair bit better than it is now.  When people stop feeling desperate and start to live a little, they tend to limit themselves to a couple kids to avoid cramping their lifestyle.  No more need to worry about having enough kids so that a few live long enough to take care of you in your old age...  The infertile ones, the ones who don't want kids, and the ones who die of disease, suicide or misadventure before reproducing take care of the rest.  Voila- no more population explosion.

Unfortunately, we're all addicted to the geometric series pyramid scam called "economic growth".  Global warming or no, you can't sustain that long term, period, unless you find us a few more planet Earths- and you can't keep up the illusion for any appreciable time without population growth.  Declining birth rates are seen as a "problem" which needs to be solved by immigration etc.

Again- sucks to be our kids, especially if engineers aren't even smart enough to do the risk analysis properly on this one.  And clearly we aren't- we'd rather just keep on doing what we're already doing until it's too late.  So that's just exactly what we'll do.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

moltenmetal,
Prosperity is being shared in China and in India.  The two great nations have advanced in wealth creation and raising the bottom average living standards.  No slow down in population growth observed as of this time.  Maybe ZPG is a North American phenomena.

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

"The two great nations have advanced in wealth creation and raising the bottom average living standards."

What, the poorest of the poor in China and India are less poor than they used to be?  Can you cite a reference for that?

Hg

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RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

China and India are a loooonnnng ways from the living standard of the US and western Europe.  

However, the largest cases of ZPG have in fact occured outside of north america.  Japan has a high standard of living (much higher than china or india) and they actually have negative native population growth.  Most of western europe also has close to ZPG.  Any population growth is immigration.

China and India are still in the process of obtaining the goal, they are not there yet.  

Population growth has and will continue to be the biggest social, economic, and environmental problem in years to come.  The media loves to publish statistics like 'if everyone did their bills online they would save XX number or trees.  Yet no one seems to be willing to acknowledge the danger of adding another 3-4 billion of us by 2050.  

RE: The engineering challanges of living with global warming

regalia:
China and India do have a way to go to match current western living standards, but it is also likely true that western living standards will likely have to move in the direction of lower energy consumption per capita, which means closer to current Inda and China energy consumption . The tricky political issue is how to convince the public that their living standards are not being reduced.

The trend to allow more immigration is tied to the need for established domestic businesses  to unsure  a constantly increasing domestic  market. If the native population is shrinking, there is then generated a strong demand by business to allow immigration to increase to make up the difference. For example, the current collapse in the housing market will be offset by the process of legalizing the 12 million illegals, who can then roll their earnings into mortgages and buy entry level houses.  The negative aspect is the increased local consumption leads to more pollution and loss of undeveloped areas for wildlife habitat ant recreation.

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