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Converstions using your first language at work
17

Converstions using your first language at work

Converstions using your first language at work

(OP)
Hi fellas, well here is a "situation" at work. All this is real. Recently  engineer A and engineer B were assigned a project by the principal engineer which doesn't speak a second language. He said: "You guys take care of it, just come by if you have some questions". Engineers A & B speak english but as a 2nd language, fluently.  One day engineer A and B where working and discussing on this project together and progressing on it, however at that moment they where speaking in their first language.  Principal engineer was far away at his "open" office hearing the conversation (which he was not invited to begin with).

This seemed to kind a make the principal engineer not too happy about it(which told them to take care of the project...he was not involved in this project even though he is the boss). He said: "Keep your conversations in English."  Question...is this ok to do? As we all know, English is the official language in the U.S.

Engineer A and B were progressing and working towards completion. From both sides, does this violates any rights or ethics? Are engineer A and B obligated to speak English?only at work? Is this is a company "rule/policie", is it ok?
My understanding of the situation is that the boss wants to micromanage or "control" everything. What's your opinion fellas..??

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

English is required where I work, but we're a defense contractor, so ensuring no one is giving away secrets trumps individual rights.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2

Quote:

As we all know, English is the official language in the U.S.

I understood that there was no "official" language in the U.S.  Possibly some states have one but not where I used to live (IL) or the U.S. as a whole.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2
All conversations are private, whether they are overheard or not.  If it's not for you, what does it matter.

Boss is paranoid.  He should just be glad the work is getting done.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2
This can work both ways.

The purpose of language is communication.  If two people are talking about anything of any importance they should use whatever language(s) allow them to communicate best.

I think it's rude to intentionally use language to keep people from knowing what you say.  But it's also rude to expect people to carry on conversations in your language just so you can listen in on a conversation that doesn't concern you.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I also understood that the US does not have an "official" language. In Texas, many courts conduct business in spanish due to the large number of spanish speakers, but I suspect this is just an efficiency issue.

With regards to talking in a language other than the one you understand, I think it comes down to common courtesy. If I am in your company, I will speak a language that you, and everyone else in the discussion, understands. This is just good manners.

If I am talking to my colleague, and someone else passing by doesn't understand what I am saying, I am less inclined to worry about it since they are eavedropping.

If my boss asks me to speak in English, and I can, I guess I would. Again, common courtesy.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

(OP)
SomptingGuy and Ashereng : You see!! thanks for clarifying, English is not even the "official lang (honestly, I thouhgt it was) Of course, I don't speak or understand lets say Japanese, I will like for some other coworker to speak to me in a language I can understand specially if related with a project. Still, I also agree with TheTick and JStephen..even if is a project, if not of your concern...we shall not be nosy or a control freak!!
regards

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

(OP)
To all:
Adding to my previous comment..does the boss' behaviour violates any rights or ethics..?? What's your opinon?
Regards

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Doesn't violate any rights, ethics, or laws so far as I know- just being nitpicky about things that don't matter.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2
I don't think his boss was being "nitpicky" at all.

The post should have been more aptly titled

"Conversations using a foreign language at work"

Communication in work is not always direct.  Things can be "overheard" and people can join in, in work you shouldn't need an invite to participate, although you can be asked to butt out.

Talking in work in a foreign language is exclusive and counter productive in my opinion.

Let's say, for example, you are in a meeting and two of the particpants start up a conversation in another language.  Are they contributing, complaining, or just inviting each other for dinner? who's to know?  

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I work for a company that is multi-national, but has a french background. We usually have people from all over Europe in the building. The working Language is the Language is English or the local language.
However it is not unusual to hear conversations in many languages.
It is common for people to speak in the language they are most at ease with if all the group speak that but they will change to english if someone else joins the group.
What is considered bad manners if people are speaking English then change to their own language when someone else enters the room.
I agree with GTstartup that a lot of communication, particulary on a project, is not direct.
Just as a matter of interest this week we have had people with the following languages in the office English, French, Germany, Greek, Spanish, Urdu, Hindi, Welsh, Chinese (Manderin I think) Oh and American.
One point we have to be careful of is that we can have meetings where there may be only one or two who speak English as a first language. Then you have to be careful, we end up using a more limited volcabulary to ensure communication.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Maybe off topic, but when I was a graduate student there was a College (of Engineering) policy that English must be spoken at all times (on campus) by the grad students.  When I asked about it, my advisor told me that the main reason was to get the foreigners used to speaking in English so that when they addressed a class or gave a presentation they'd have had more practice with the language.

Like I said, off topic, but it show that the prohibitions aren't limited to the 'working world'.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

PatBetha
You may not remember this but it happened at Long Beach State in Ca.  Some of the professors in the engineering could hardley be understood.  
There was an anthropology professor who started giving all his lectures in Italian.  People complained and he stated that if the people in the engineering department didn't have to instruct in english neither did he.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Quote (GIstartup):

Let's say, for example, you are in a meeting and two of the particpants start up a conversation in another language.

This is different.  Also, this is not the case.

If you are uncomfortable with two people carrying on a private conversation in another language, the problem is with you and not with them.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I also work in a multinational company, and it is not at all unusual for people to have side bar conversations in their own language during meetings. Annoying but common.

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

"Talking in work in a foreign language is exclusive and counter productive in my opinion.

"Let's say, for example, you are in a meeting and two of the particpants start up a conversation in another language.  Are they contributing, complaining, or just inviting each other for dinner? who's to know?"

I don't think that example proves that point at all.

If they are contributing or complaining, they should do so in a language that everyone in the meeting understands.  But in the original question, that's what was being done- there were just two people in the "meeting".

If they are inviting each other for dinner, how would the situation be improved if it was in English?  It wouldn't.  The point then is not the language, but what is said.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

maby this shouldn't be under "Ethics" but common courtsey.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Exactly BJC,

The problem is that if people are speaking in a foreign language it's not known if it is private or not.  It's not known if it's even business related or not.  Maybe I've worked in the field too long, but the success of our projects live or die by communication. We can’t have guys breaking into conversations in all the different languages we have available, it would be chaos.

If you are within earshot of a colleague, whether he was "invited" or not, you should speak the language of the company.   

Common courtesy.  Lots of people speak a second language, just not necessarily yours.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

From the sound of the question, the principal engineer had no compelling reason to insist the two in question speak English to each other, other than to just throw his weight around. And since using English may actually have the negative effect of unnecessarily delaying the project, I do believe their is an ethical question here. From the NSPE Code; "Engineers shall act for each employer or client as faithful agents or trustees."

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Change the wording up a bit in some of these quotes.  Is this the same thing, or different?

"Recently  engineer A and engineer B were assigned a project by the principal engineer. He said: "You guys take care of it, just come by if you have some questions".  One day engineer A and B where working and discussing on this project together and progressing on it, however at that moment they where speaking quietly.  Principal engineer was far away at his "open" office barely hearing the conversation (which he was not invited to begin with).

"This seemed to kind a make the principal engineer not too happy about it(which told them to take care of the project...he was not involved in this project even though he is the boss). He said: "Keep your conversations Loud."  Question...is this ok to do? As we all know, Loud is the official language in the U.S."


"Talking quietly an work is exclusive and counter productive in my opinion.

"Let's say, for example, you are in a meeting and two of the particpants start up a conversation quietly.  Are they contributing, complaining, or just inviting each other for dinner? who's to know?"

Personally, whereever I am, I just naturally feel like everyone ought to speak my language, regardless of whether it's at work or a bus station.  I think that is human nature, particularly if you're not around other languages much; it just doesn't seem right that anyone would use any language besides your own.  But I think it's a mistake to try to write a prejudice into policy without some pretty good reason.  And I know for sure that if I was in China having a private conversation with another American, that conversation is going to be in English.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

JStevphen
Been there done that. But first I ask permission from the person in charge.  I apologized and explained that I could not communicate the ideals I need to without first talking to my associate.  

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2
Often times thoughts and ideas can be better (or in some cases only) expressed in a person's native language. I agree that it can be necessary for a company to have an official language and for that language to be spoken exclusively in meetings and group discussions. That being said a conversation between two individuals who share a native language other than the company accepted official language can be more productive than both of them trying to communicate in a language foreign to them. If the Principle engineer needs to be involved in the conversation, they should communicate so that all can understand, but in this case the Principle engineer was not involved. If he/she wanted to be involved, he/she should have asked rather than demanded to be included. I am certain engineers a and b would have complied.

David

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Being the principal engineer, he has every right to ask for conversations in English, as well as working documents in English.  Being the PE, he is the customer.

TTFN

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2
Being the customer, does he have every right to ask for red underwear as well then? smile
Working documents in English, sure, but conversations between non-native English speakers no. It's like forcing a lefty to write with his right hand.
Just because the boss is linguistically handicapped (in Spanish or whatever the other language was) that does not mean he should pass on his handicap to the people that work for him, when they are having a conversation that the boss is not even involved in.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

We often have meetings with German customers.  Because German is not a common second language for Brits, the meetings are almost always conducted in English.  The clients (or potential clients) often have loud internal discussions in German while we stand there and count our fingers.  Most awkward.

Back at base we have the unusual situation of a married Chinese couple working fairly closely together to the point where they need to have work-related discussions from time to time.  When they switch to their first language there's no way of telling whether their conversation is commercial, technical, personal, domestic or even subversive.  And to insist that they speak in English to each other at all times would be frankly ridiculous.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Speaking in a different language in front of others who don't understand is rude. However, I worked in the Chicago area for a long time with many foreign nationals, and they rarely spoke anything but English.  

Switzerland was a unique experience. I worked a trade show in Geneva where it was common to drift from French to Swiss German to Hoch Deutsch to Italian to English not so much for need but for practice. The Swiss take pride in language skills.

In the US we should recognize that the whole other half of the hemisphere speaks Spanish (even the Brazilians), and Spanish as a second language is a viable option, whether you like it or not.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Diversity and inclusivness is a big deal where I work. My boss had coniption the other day when two of my colleagues were standing in cubeville having a conversation in Spanish. I know enough Spanish to know that it was a very typical work conversation, one that drifted from work related to personal, and back again. The boss had a talk with them, welcoming them as diverse memebers of the team, but chastising them for not being inclusive in carrying on their conversation in Spanish.

Somptingguy, you used the right words. Frankly ridiculous...

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

One reason for sticking with English on a project in English is that translation can be tricky at best, particularly if the English requirements were nebulous to start with.  

Many of our requirements change from compliant to noncompliant specifically because of the wording and grammar of the specification.  To discuss such specifications in another language poses no assurance that you're even discussing the same requirement.

TTFN

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

plasgears, Was that a slip or do people in the US really think/believe Brazilians speak Spanish?

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Most of the Brazilians that I have worked with do speak Spanish, along with English and Portugese (as it is spoken in Brazil I guess).

Most of the Trinidad and Tabago people that I have worked with also usually speak the same three languages (in addition to whatever else they speak). They tried to teach me, unfortunately, they also told me I could repeat much of it to people outside of the group (I am guessing some of it is a bit "slang"?).

Typically, it is the Americans that are single language English speakers only. Although lately, this too seems to be changing.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

"the whole other hemisphere speaks Spanish"

Well...

Brasil -> Portugese
French Guyana -> French (and it's part of the European Union)
Surinam -> Dutch, Sranan Tongo and a whole bunch of other languages

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Guyana -> English

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I believe there is a point where discussing project issues in a language all do not understand can lead to serious issues:

I guess the principal engineer is also a technical advisor to the project, I recently overheard two engineers making a decision that would have led to incorrect component fit, I was not part of this conversation, never the less I explained their error and they changed their plans.

The point is, they spoke my language, if the conversation had taken place in another language, one that I could not understand, I would have missed this, costing the company and the customer a great deal.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Well, I have a problem:
The official language of my company is English but sometimes I still swear at my native language. Am I breaking the rules?

In a more serious tone, I don't think that it is reasonable, as someone pointed out, that before you start talking with someone to see who is around (and not participating/invited for the talk) to choose which language to communicate to. When I speak with someone, I use the language that will achieve my goal, that is, to be understood, and living in China and speaking only survival Chinese, I can tell you that one of my most used languages is "body language". If someone passes by and sees me "dancing" in front of a colleague to try to pass my message and wants to participate in the talk, then he/she can also "dance" along...

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

It's an interesting question and one I think with no single right answer.

Certainly as a start, one thinks that a private conversation should not concern anyone other than the participants.

But the boss even though apparently uninterested also have some duty to oversee the project.  Perhaps he pays more attention than you know.  If he didn't want to keep tabs on the workings of his employees, they might as well work from home, right?

I like what JStephen said:

Quote:


Personally, whereever I am, I just naturally feel like everyone ought to speak my language, regardless of whether it's at work or a bus station.  I think that is human nature, particularly if you're not around other languages much; it just doesn't seem right that anyone would use any language besides your own.
It's not politically correct, but it is human nature....   particularly if you're not around other languages much (which applies to many Americans).

If I'm in a store and I hear a loud conversation in a foreign language, I feel a pang of annoyance.  There is no logical reason... but I do.  Somehow the conversation becomes a little more intrusive just because it is gibberish to the listener.

Likewise at work there is a certain amount of chatter in the background that I learn to tune out.  But chatter in a foreign language has a distinctly different wavelength that catches my attention and resonates my annoyance membrane.

I'm sure that the more I am around folks speaking other languages, the more I would learn the skill of tuning this out...but until then those conversations will always be just a little more annoying to me than the run-of-the mill English-language chatter.

After all my rambling I land again on the answer that I don't think there is a single right answer. There should be communication on both sides.  If the Engineers feel that their productivity will be hindered by this seemlingly articifical requirement, they should discuss it with the boss... explain their view... try to understand why it's important to him.

=====================================
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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

epoisses,

My apologies for not recognizing small pockets of populations that speak other than Spanish in the southern hemisphere. My reference was to the vast population that speaks Spanish.

Brazilian citizens are unique in being able to converse in Spanish while their neighbors shun Portugese.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Having employees that speak several languages is a bonus to a company. Being actively multilingual should be encouraged. Many companies will pay for their employees to learn another language. I speak mostly English at work, and am glad to be able to speak French with my customers from Quebec and Spanish with my customers from Spanish America. Although, I speak 3 languages (French, English and Spanish), this is nothing compared to some of my friends who speak 5 or more. Frankly, I don't quite understand the principal engineer's reasoning.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

2
I spent my early years around people who spoke many different languages, many of which I didn't speak, and I will never understand why some people find it rude when they hear another language.

Hg

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Rudeness is in the context.  Doing a good fart by yourself is not rude.  Doing the same in front of others is, unless everyone is doing it.

So, there's no general rule that says speaking in a foreign language in front of others is automatically rude.

But, here's perhaps a more plausible scenario.  Let's say that ALL your subcontractor's notes, measurementa, interim calculations, analyses, etc., were written in Aztec, although his final report was in English.  Would you wonder if something got lost in the translation?

TTFN

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Should you force your employees to think in English?  Also, is there a guarantee that the finished product is always better when the employee's process and communication were in English as opposed to any other language?

I agree that there is no general rule about when it is rude to speak in a foreign language.  If one finds foreign language offensive or inappropriate, he/she should hire people whose first language is English.

Then again, I'm from California where, in my best estimate, 80% of the people in engineering are not native English speakers so I might have some bias.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I think that mechgunner has a valid point.  If the conversation is indeed personal, language should not be an issue.  If they are in an open office situation (cubes count) discussing a work problem, then the PE should be able to eavesdrop, just to keep tabs on the project.  I have also been guilty of interjecting my thoughts or objections regarding work issues when I had not been a part of the original converstation, usually to increase my own understanding of the problem at hand or to give the benefit of my experience with similar problems.  Work conversation should be a free exchange of ideas between anyone within listening distance.
It does not bother me to hear others speaking to one another in their native language in other situations.  Walk into any store in San Antonio, and chances are that the majority of languages being spoken are not english.  The same in the break room at work.  It only starts to bother me when they start to point at me and laugh ;)  

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

It bothers me even when they don't point at me, especially inside the elevator.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

My wife grew up speaking Spanish as her first language but learned English in school in small town south Texas.  Conversations at home were totally in Spanish (actually Tex-Mex).  She moved to the big city and got a job and had to use English at work but was chastised for speaking Spanish to her co-workers.  The perception was that they were talking about the other workers right in front of them and they were told not to speak Spanish at work.  

The boss may not always be right but he is always the boss and can dictate how the employees act at work.

_____________________________________
I have been called "A storehouse of worthless information" many times.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

English is my second langaugage (I work in England). I do not have much chance to use my mother tongue in the office. If there are people from my country and if there are other people present, I tend to use English. In case I find it easier to explain something in my mother tongue, I apologise to my english colleagues and have a brief chat in my mother tongue - but I keep it as short as possible and explain in English what was it about.

On a slightly different note, I do feel slighty uncomfortable speaking in English with my compatriots in front of Egnglish friends - basically, I imagine english people thinking: 'What are these two people doing to (butchering) the English language'.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Hi IRstuff,

"Let's say that ALL your subcontractor's notes, measurementa, interim calculations, analyses, etc., were written in Aztec, although his final report was in English."

Technically speaking Aztec is not a language. N'ahuatl was the language of the Aztecs and is still spoken in many regions of Mexico. Just like nobody speaks United Statian, in the United States one speaks English.

cheers,

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

... but the United Statian version of English.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

"Let's say that ALL your subcontractor's notes, measurements, interim calculations, analyses, etc., were written in English, although his final report was in" N'ahuatl."

How do small countries/languages handle this?  In the USA it seems like we have the market power to require everything in English but I can't imagine the Aztecs could buy much if they forced everyone to speak N'ahuatl.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I understand that small countries means every other country except the US... smile
Well small coutries don't make a problem of it and don't consider it rude to speak different languages.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

epoisses just hit the jackpot!!!

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

(OP)
Hi epoisses
You're correct.  For example, although Hindi is the main language in India, they have hundreds of languages and dialects, but weird thing, nobody makes a big deal out of it.
Regards

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

The same Americans who freak out when someone around them speaks Spanish would think nothing themselves of being in, say, Spain, and speaking English with each other.

Hg

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I have worked overseas for a number of years - in Chinese, Laos, India and Indonesian.  Conversations in the native languages there (in front of me or other expats) is common.  I have no problems there, or back in Canada, if two colleagues speak their native languages to each other at the office - even work issues unless I am to be involved.  Then it is difficult.  I understand (India the exception) that not too many local engineers are fluent in English.  In official meetings where the language of the contract is in English, I think that this is rude to speak in the foreign language unless it is acknowledged as such - Hey, BigH, can we discuss this first - then we'll advise you.  No problem.  Where I once saw a problem was in Canada.  Two engineers of Hungarian lineage were working on a project - basically the two of them. Then they both quit before the project ended.  While I would have no problem with their discussing the project in Hungarian if between themselves, all their design notes, memos, etc. were written in Hungarian for the project files.  THAT caused problems.

RE: Converstions using your first language at work

Quote:

I guess the principal engineer is also a technical advisor to the project, I recently overheard two engineers making a decision that would have led to incorrect component fit, I was not part of this conversation, never the less I explained their error and they changed their plans.

The point is, they spoke my language, if the conversation had taken place in another language, one that I could not understand, I would have missed this, costing the company and the customer a great deal.

By that logic, there should be a certain decibel minimum, to encourage the possibility of overhearing.  I mean, if they'd been speaking more quietly, you also wouldn't have overheard them.  "If I can see you talking, I should be able to understand you, regardless of whether you intend me to be part of the conversation," seems to be the philosophy here.  So why limit it to lack of understanding due to linguistic differences?  Let's add volume to the list.  Should make for a better workplace for all.

Hg

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RE: Converstions using your first language at work

I am currently working overseas in a multi lingual environment. While everyone is required to have some fluency in English, conversations in many languages are common.

What is the big deal? As long as the work is getting done why worry about irrelevancies?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

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