What should EITs be doing?
What should EITs be doing?
(OP)
In some of the postings, it sounds like young engineering interns (like myself) don't know their heads from their back-sides. What experiences should EITs be seeking out in order to become a competent engineer?
Also, the general opinion seems to be that engineering schools seem to be inadequate. Should EITs be seeking further education. Most of my senior level classes were also graduate classes, so I don't think it would provide a very different experience other than a large research project.
Also, the general opinion seems to be that engineering schools seem to be inadequate. Should EITs be seeking further education. Most of my senior level classes were also graduate classes, so I don't think it would provide a very different experience other than a large research project.





RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Your knowledge is up to you and how hard you are willing to work. Never stop desiring to be better than you are. When you're at the EI level it isn't hard to find things you don't know. Pick something you don't know, perhaps something you need to learn for an upcoming project, and study for a few hours everynight after work until you know it. After a couple years you'll notice yourself pull ahead of others, including PE's, who waited for knowledge to come to them and shorted themselves. Keep in mind that the letters "PE" behind your name in themselves only mean you have the minimum competance to pass a test. What you know is your decision and in your power.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Somwhat simplistic but perhaps worth saying, as an EIT shouldn't you be working toward your PE?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Among other things the survey gave the result that the 2 most experienced engineers, which also incidentally had the highest education level, independently from each other stressed the importance of asking questions when you did not know enough to solve the cases given to you.
.. None of the others highlighted the importance of searching for information and asking for help in the same way.
In my opinion you have already started on the right track, but you will actually need all sorts of new input all the way,- its no end to it. And that is - as the student group concluded - being a good and experienced engineer.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Further study at this stage will just make you an academic, it is learning to apply that knowledge in a professional environment that makes you an engineer.
In fact the attitude in Australia is that those with postgraduate degrees are actually less employable because the additional study makes them more academic than practical. This is not necessarily the case in the US however.
In your first couple of years you should ask lots of questions, but try not to ask the same question twice.
When you are doing a new and different project,ask for example drawings of a similar project. This will save you having to reinvent the wheel and will show you the type and level of detail that you have to go into.
Get a book to write down notes on everything you have been taught, keep copies of your interesting calculations. This will help you avoid having to ask the same question again.
For new areas, try to read some relevant articles on the topic so that you have a better understanding before you start.
Most importantly, when you get a new project, the first thing you should do is sit down and formulate a set of questions to ensure that you understand the project correctly. Only after you have done this should you actually start the design.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
More book learning ain't a-gonna teach you nutting! Put a moratorium on courses for credit for a few years after graduation!
Get your backside out into the real world and calibrate your commonsense- that's what you're missing. Build your conceptual understanding by seeing the consequences of design decisions in the physical world rather than in the land of paper drawings, CAD models and calculations. You've been living in the land of abstraction for too long, coming right out of school. Remember that engineering is APPLIED science!
Oh yeah, and work with some engineers who are doing the same! Talk with them- ask questions. Listen to their stories. But don't stop with just the engineers when you're looking for mentors and people to learn from. Tradesmen, designers, techies- even bean counters and lowly sales reps- everybody has something to teach you if you're humble and curious enough to learn. That is, if engineering school hasn't pounded whatever honest enthusiasm and curiosity out of you that you may have had left after high school was through with you!
Good luck- and a star to you for asking a good question!
RE: What should EITs be doing?
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moltenmetal - sounds like you may have had a rough go back there in school.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
As to the OP, asking questions is a good idea, even better though (at least sometimes) is to really think through the problem and do a little research before you ask for assistance. Being able to at least sometimes say "I was thinking of doing it like this, does that sound right" is probably better than consistently just asking what to do.
Of course sometimes it's more efficient/faster/safer to ask the question rather than trying to work it out, but try and mix it up a little.
Also try and get as wide a range of experience as possible, not sure exactly what that might be for civil/environmental but I'd guess spending time on the design side, analysis side and out in the field. This will not only make you more well rounded & understand how other departments/sections/roles work but may give you a window into what area, if any, you want to specialize in.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
1. Understand that you are a problem solver, not an order taker.
2. Always dig as deep as you can in order to gain the best understanding possible of the task before you.
3. The more fundamental the concept, the more important it is to master.
4. Use your "young blood" knowledge to innovate ideas and solutions, and don't trust a senior engineer if they say "because its always been done that way".
5. If you don't understand "how" a particular systems or component functions, spend as much time possible trying to understand it.
6. NEVER take someone's advice and trust it. If someone gives you advice/direction, thank them, and then personally verify that the solution "works" and is the most effective.
7. Attempt to completely understand the problem before trying to design a solution.
8. PE's are much more likely to give you room to grow as an engineer. An "engineer" who's not a PE is most likely not concerned about your future as an engineer and will use you like a work horse rather than an innovative problem solver.
9. Try to stay up with new technology as it becomes available. Probe the minds of "youngsters" for help "new stuff" They problably know more about the new technology than you do.
10. Your education taught you "how to think", it did not equip you with answers to problems.
You will be "one of the old guys" before you know it!!!
RE: What should EITs be doing?
The LAST thing I'd recommend to an EIT is more formal schooling!
School in general is characterized as much by boredom and arbitrariness as it is by opportunities for learning. The systematic nature of formal for-credit education, plus the social dynamics of the classroom, conspire to stultify the natural curiosity and eagerness to learn that most kids come by innately- at least until they're about ten years old and discover being "cool"...it's a problem that's very tough to overcome.
After four plus years in engineering school, these kids need to DO something. Their principal problem is not a lack of knowledge (though that too can be lacking depending on their school)- rather, what's left of their commonsense has very little calibration based on real-world experience. THAT'S what they need, and they won't get it in a classroom!
RE: What should EITs be doing?
I have been working for a large materials company that doesn't employ any engineers. We hire consultants for design work- I'm careful about not over-stepping my bounds, and any design work I do goes to one of our consultants.
I don't think the state board will recognize experience from my current job, but I am learning infinitely more in my current position than I was learning for a short time that I worked for a consulting firm. It seems like the state board of technical professions encourages 1 yr. of experience four times. In this state, as a civil engineering intern, job opportunities directly under a PE are limited to consulting firms and state agencies.
Thank you all again for all of your input. I have felt fairly isolated from engineers, and this forum has helped me keep on the right track mentally.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
There has been lots of good advice posted previously so I will try not to rehash too much.
It sounds like you may need to change employers at some point to gain experience relevant to obtaining a PE license, but your experience can be valuable nonetheless. Generally the licensing boards want to see 4 or more years of progressively responsible experience under a PE, not 1 year of experience four times, but I suppose it can feel that way.
I agree with Moltenmetal - whenver possible, for as long as possible, get out in the field, get your boots dirty, and see how things get constructed in the real world vs. what's shown on the plans.
Hang around those old-timers and pick their brains - the grizzled inspectors, superintendents, and foremen, as well as the draftsmen & technicians. You may have to take a few orders, buy coffee, or go look for a plan stretcher. Be a good sport, do it with respect and humility, and you'll earn their respect and they will readily share their knowledge. Some will share whether you want their opinion or not. You can learn something from everyone, but you will soon learn who has what's worth learning.
You'll need to demonstrate your competence, and the ability to apply what they have taught you in order to keep their respect. Stand your ground when you know you are correct, but don't embarrass them in front of others.
Also try to find an experienced PE (with real world experience as well) to act as a mentor. If there's not one at your place of employment, try the local Branch/Section of ASCE, NSPE, or other professional organization.
Communication skills will be vital as your career advances. Based on your posts, you appear to have a good grasp on written communication - spelling, punctuation, not writing in text message jargon, etc. Be consistent in that regard.
With respect to verbal communication, if your current position doesn't give you the opportunity to make presentations to small and large groups, then find another venue where you can gain that experience. Possibilities again include local professional organizations (ASCE, NSPE, etc) plus civic organizations such as Kiwanis, Rotary, Toasmasters, etc. These organizations also can help you fill voids in your experience, help the community, and gain leadership experience you wouldn't normally obtain in the first few years out of college.
Good luck!
RE: What should EITs be doing?
"If you have a choice, DON'T go straight into consulting out of school!"
I have done two intersnhips in engineering consulting. I agree with you completely, but many graduating engineers don't really have a choice. Traditional industry seem to hire less university students every year and consulting hires more. No doubt this is reflective of the current state of certain industries themselves: America's largest chemical manufacturer duPont had ~150,000 employees in 1995 and now they have ~60,000.
Engineers in industry (and in this thread) seem to blame academia for the deteriorating quality of engineers, however i think it is fairly clear to me that it is instead the engineers in industry who really dropped the ball. I think there are plenty of eager and capable engineers out there wanting to learn, but industry will cry shortage in search of their '10-pound butterfly' that some other company paid to train.
It is my plan desire to work for an integrated energy company like Chevron, Exxon, or ConocoPhillips after graduating....but given hiring trends it is looking more likely that I'll end up on the Fluor, Bechtel, or CH2M Hill side of industry.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Regular or decaf? Also, would you care for a bagel along with that?
If a request for coffee is the most rude thing I get in a day, it's a good day. Construction contractors in this town sometimes resort to physical violence; good thing I played (American) football in college.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Consider this factor as well: a reason that the consultants are hiring more and the firms themselves are hiring fewer is that the firms are out-sourcing their work to the CONSULTANTS! That way, when the work's not there, they simply don't let the contracts. No layoffs, no severance pay etc.- on their side, at least. But most of the work didn't just disappear or move offshore- much of it has moved to a subcontractor somewhere.
Who has "dropped the ball" here? In Canada it's the engineering profession itself. We have made ZERO effort to match the supply of engineers to marketplace demand. We're silent or even complicit while industry screams "shortage!" to keep their workforce "flexible" (i.e. oversupplied, willing to take anything that's handed to them). By all measures I've seen, we have a far poorer utilization of engineering grads and immigrants in ENGINEERING WORK than the US does. And we are making ZERO effort as a profession to deal with it.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Interesting point. In Australia, they surveyed employers to find out which jobs were apparently in the most shortage due to placements not being filled. The two branches of engineering that came out on top (i.e. most shortage) were structural and civil consulting, which were also the lowest paid!
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
I am not a fan neither of the army nor of communism but this is what they used to do:
- an officer would first have to complete a tour of duty in a combat unit before advancing to a staff position;
- when I graduated, over 20 years ago in communist Romania, EITs were obliged to work for the first three years in a production facility and only after that could move to an engineering company.
From my own experience, 15 years ago I changed fields - from manufacturing to chemical. I started by working for two years in field maintenance in a chemical plant and the experience I gained is invaluable. Today when I design plants I am thinking of actual equipment and not something virtual learned from books.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
For example, I worked in a job for 4 mo, and I didn't see eye to eye with the company owner on a number of issues. (I think he saw PEs as just plan stampers, and that was his plan for me.) Then I took a job with a ready mix company to work as a project manager to set up a new small transit mix concrete plant. The company will have a rail project to work on soon, but after that, I think it is time to move on after being with that company for less than a year. (I was hired as kind of temporary, but my boss has found that I am quite versatile in other areas as well.) Also, my present employer doesn't employ any PEs; I intend to eventually be a PE.
I think I have gotten better experience by changing jobs instead of doing the same thing at the same place for the rest of my career, but I'm concerned about someone seeing short times at a job as instability.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
That said there are plenty of engineers who've had to jump around for one reason or another and are still employed.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Being a job-hopper has alot to do with your own ethics and personal values. I believe switching employeers after less then a year shows a lack of professionalism (unless there are some strange cirmcumstances in play). If you have >3 employeers over decade... you might as well call yourself a hooker, and assume no company worth its salt will ever consider you a real asset.
Job hoppers can always find a job, but they will never really have a career. Kind of sad really...
RE: What should EITs be doing?
I know of companies that every 2-3 years have a "restructuring cycle" and or hire people on " permanent " roles that became redundant soon a project is finished.
I can see a lot of red flags with companies were engineers are operating cost and not assets.
My advice to the EIT : do what is right for you, no jobs are for life and don't expect any favours from companies big or small. Learn and take your experience with you as you see fit. Dont sell your skills cheap either. Good luck
RE: What should EITs be doing?
The major consulting companies staff up when they have major projects and staff back down when they don't- since they're only in the business of selling man-hours at comparatively low margins, they have zero choice in the matter if they want to make money. They "need" a pool of "tramp" labour to make that happen, because they can't count on a stable level of business to make a long-term commitment to their entire staff. During good times, they are forced to pay a premium for the "tramps", and during bad times they simply don't hire- especially not new grads. They're always lobbying behind the scenes to keep the labour market flooded to keep the tramps' wages down. They cry "shortage!" so often it's a wonder anyone bothers to listen to them any more.
A few find a secure position on staff and become the "tramp overseers". These people often compel uncompensated overtime from the keeners amongst the tramps, and pocket the benefit in their profit-sharing cheques.
Does this sound like a "profession" to you? The good news is, this only represents PART of the industry- the part the smart ones amongst us steer well clear of!
Grubbyky: yes, someone who jumps jobs frequently raises a red flag, as does anybody who has a large gap in their employment history. Unless you've got a good story to tell, it will be assumed that you were repeatedly disloyal and left seeking higher wages somewhere else- i.e. you'd fit in much better amongst the "tramps" above, where such behaviour would be a most appropriate response to how you were being treated! But decent firms DO view their employees as an asset and invest time and money in training them, whether that be via hired courses or on-the-job mentorship by senior engineers. They can't afford to waste that effort, so they won't hire you if they feel their effort WILL be wasted.
So the question is- do you want to be a tramp, or do you want a professional career? If it's the latter, show that you can stick it out for a while. Don't put up with abuse, and don't get into a rut, but don't leave the second your feet get itchy. It'll get tired really fast.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
You really should get a stayer for the next job. Personally I would think twice about employing an engineer that could not stay in a job for a year. I would consider a year and a half as a reasonable minimum with acceptance of one or two shorter periods or temporary contract positions.
That said, if you are not doing engineering at the moment then maybe you should look at other options. While you are still employed, check out the job market, try to attend a couple of interviews.
Dont forget that when you go for a position, you should try and interview them as much as they interview you. Ask them why they need a new person, how long current employees have worked for them, attitude on training e.t.c. This not only tells you if it is a good company, but also shows you are serious about the position.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
I would much prefer to start my career in a chemical plant, but I don't think I will find such a job. I have to assume they are hiring people who have 2-3 years in consulting, because they sure don't seem to hire at entry level.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
In the petro/chemical business it's boom-time now, but trust me- that's not the new normal, it's a boom like all booms past. When the projects go, the consultants will dump staff as they always have done. And nobody will be standing ready to shut off the tap on the supply of engineers to the marketplace when the bust happens.
Here your best chance of longer-term retention is with smaller, privately held firms, whether that be in manufacturing or in consulting. That's probably true in the US too. Working for a publicly traded company is the same as saying that you work for a company whose share-holders are idiots. The "public" has no long-term vision and no knowledge of what your company is or does- they see only the share value at this moment and perhaps the size of the last dividend. It's a recipe for Dilbertesque management and HR behavior.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
The reason I don't totally agree with you is because you really do get paid well for your sacrifices and they take care of you; you are a corporate tool, but not really any more than anybody else. I didn't see anything that makes me think that the job-security wasn't excellent. The reason I didn't choose this life definitely isn't economic.
My advice is to work in the field at first if for no other reason than to hear all the old laborers tell you about women and life.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Hg
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RE: What should EITs be doing?
I didn't go back and count or do anything eneering like with the posts, but they all say you need to ask questions and LISTEN to the resulting answers. You need to become well rounded and see all sides, See how the operators use the equipment or services, how its maintained, how its used, how it is marketted, what economic factors go into it, what social impacts, see everything, do not just jump into the engineering only.
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
RE: What should EITs be doing?
Every time I was taken on as staff, I got laid off at the end of the project. It was very disillusioning. I lived through some tough curves. I chose to remain contractor but didn't stick to my guns and got burned again.
At one time, my colleagues were leaving the enginering profession for jobs in computers and networks but I chose to stay in engineering through lean times. I was tempted many times as computers are my forte. I argued to myself that ultimately engneering is a profession of wisdom, it gets easier and better paid with the years. Now my colleagues are unemployed and busted, struggling to learn new technology, new languages and all for less money.
Suddenly, I have the grey hairs now and I teach the graduates and trainees the ropes. I enjoy the deadline, lump sum cultures, find I work harder, better and relax more. My career has taken me worldwide but I still look to see if 'the penny drop' and another engineer's light gets switched on. For most of us, it happens years beyond graduating. You ask yourself all the time, am I doing the right thing, is this what I want to do? Am I doing it yet? Is this it?
HgTX is right about learning the equations as a grad but it is a tiny slice of life as an engineer; you need vision, passion, confidence and still go out there and prove your competence to the client and yourself.
Dcasto nails it, stay to finish your PE, use it as a rare time in your life that won't come again and observe actively. Possibly everything in your future will be tied to this period of your career. Or possibly not but choose.
Go with your instincts, you have a whole life, an amazing career to enjoy, whether you stay with the herd or fly with the eagle. Each have their own path.
I had a heavy academic and sheltered life and chose to get as much site experience as possible to learn how the real world uses my ideas. My numerous years of site experience drive my office-based reality now.