Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Copying sealed PE work for personal records
(OP)
Are you allowed to retain a copy your own sealed work for your personal records? What about if you change jobs? Can you take a copy of the work you produced with you (assuming it is not proprietary)? Am I not still responsible for the design whether I work for Company A or Company B? What if I want to use portions of that design or detail in another job with another company. It seems that there is nothing new under the sun especially in the civil/structural world, but what is the limit on taking work with you? Thanks in advance.





RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
As far as taking the files with you when you leave, that is a negotiation. If you leave with the files without having Firm A's blessing then you are stealing their product and should be prosecuted, certainly your PE lisence should be revoked. If they agree to your taking them, then you need to closely follow any restrictions that the may have placed on the use of the files.
David
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
I think the key is, ask. If your company says yes, then take copies with you. If they say no, then don't. In the UK we don't have the issue of PE stamps, so I don't what additional implications that has.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
I would like to differ.
In most companies, I am NOT allowed to take any documentation without permission. They consider it theft.
In most jurisdications, the COMPANY is required to keep records. That is why they have record retention policies and a documents control group.
I have had relative success at taking "non sensitive" and "non proprietary" documents with me when I leave the employ of a company. I have also had success asking for documents AFTER I had left, to use on my next job (obviously, the non sensitive and non proprietary type). People are pretty good about sharing the "common" stuff.
pldpe,
Having said that, ask your company whether you can take your stuff. Take what they give you permission to. Give back what they say you can not take.
In case of a lawsuit, chances are, your lawyer will subpeona the drawings from your company.
If your company has changed the drawing, and pass it off as yours, then they are committing fraud. Most stamped drawings are usually also filed with a government agency (part of the approval/application process). This makes it tougher for a company to wilfully commit fraud and get away with it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
"In case of a lawsuit, chances are, your lawyer will subpeona the drawings from your company."
What if the company has purged its files, in Canada I believe 7yrs?
What about the case of companies that don't exist when the lawsuit occurs?
This area has not been addressed in Canada by the respective engineering associations although the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of exemptions to copyright under certain circumstances applied to professionals (ie lawyers and teachers) and researchers.
Regards
VOD
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
If they call you can tell the inspector you don't work their and can't answer the question. Good luck on that, if you have won the lottery or retired you can risk POin an inspector or building official.
You can call up your previous employer and tell them your getting questions and that you can refer the building official to them or answer them for $150 an hour.
The other scinaro is someone making changes to your design and documenting through the "as built" drawings only.
If your taking drawings you stamped you have some degree of ownership. Your not stealing unless you take the design and reuse it or blantely copy it.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Haveing said that, if you take drawings that belongs to the company, it is still theft.
Yes, your stamp is on the drawing. Ownership of the drawing, in most employment cases, still rests with the company that you work for. Just because your stamp is on the drawing does not imply ownership.
If someone changes the drawing, then the stamp is nulled. If they then put your stamp on the drawing, then that is fraud.
In case of a problem, who does the inspector or building company call? Probably the companies that either did the original design, construction or has the contract for maintenance. Would they call the EOR? Probably only in a lawsuit. If your car has a problem, do you go back to the dealership or do you call the salesman that sold it to you? Similar analogy.
What happens if the company has purged its files? There is probably still a copy with the governing government agency - they tend to keep lots of things. I am not familiar with the "7 year". I know more than one company that I have worked at that kept their files for much longer. The only "7 year" rule that I know of is for taxes. The government typcially (not legally barred) can go back 7 years to search for / audit / request supporting documents on filings. If they find something, then all bets are off on how far they can go back.
Like I said, in most cases, I have been given drawings, documents, etc. when I have asked. Most of the time, I ask for them after I have left the company - for the next project. I still often get it, the non proprietary ones.
I am not sure what you are referring to. Please clarify.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
At least one copy of all documents containing the licensee’s signature, seal, date and all related calculations shall be retained by the licensee or the licensee’s employer for a minimum of three years from the date the documents were sealed.
Looks to me like the State of Florida allows an employee to keep a copy of anything they seal, regardless of all else (proprietary info, etc.). But then, I'm no lawyer.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
And here is the link:
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From this, it seems that 15 years is the time frame for keeping stamped drawings, documents, etc.
Also from this, it seems that the drawings, as I said earlier, in most employement situations, belong to the employer.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Like I said, I'm no lawyer. But what if the company folds? Who has the legal responsibility then? "They" can't go after the company, now can they? I'd be curious to know if anyone has any information on case law related to engineers trying to keep/obtain copies of drawings they had stamped.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Based solely on the wording of Florida Administrative Code (FAC) 61G15-30.009, stamped drawings shall be kept a minimum of 3 years by either an EOR or the company. If the company folded within three years and the EOR has already left the firm, I suppose the company has a legal responsibility to release the drawings to the EOR.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
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Regards
VOD
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
I also believe that theft is theft.
Imitation is fine.
Stealing is not.
It seems that this case study is saying that the drawings belong to the employer (unless other contratual arrangements are made).
This seems to relate to "public" entities. As a corporation and/or individual, I don't think this relates. Hence, the drawing still belongs to the company (unless otherwise contractually accouted for) and if one makes a copy for ones personal use, it is still copyright infringement.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
From the apegnb article, I agree that the employer has ownership, but there is another point here that needs to be addressed. Entitlement for the signing professional engineer.
This is a mute point where these drawings etc. become public domain through access to information where applicable (ie government agencies, etc.).
VOD
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Per agegnb, it seems tht entitlement for the EOR is limited to the employment contract - as is my experience.
csd72,
If they want to see an example, I ask my old boss if I can have a copy.
Again, my feeling is theft is theft. If it is not yours, then ask for it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
If I come to your house, and take something (like a picture), but I have no intention of using it in the future for any personal gain, is it theft?
Put it another way, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?
EddyC,
My answer is based on non-fraud cases. With a really good forger, I am sure they can put my stamp and signature on almost anything. Since my stamp is kept at work (so I can stamp whatever), they don't even have to forge the stamp.
Assuming everyone is not into forgery or fraud, the drawings will usually be there when I need it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Your example has no relevance to the discussion. If I came to your house, took down your picture and photocopied it then returned the picture - then that would be an appropriate analogy.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Fair enough. That is a better analogy. It is still theft. No different than ripping a CD.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
So, in respect to the discussion, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
The picture I took involved the public interest and safety. I am by law the responsible engineer. I have a responsiblity to the people. The state has required me to do so. If I can't trust or don't feel my former employeer will be in business I will keep the drawings.
If you take that picture on the wall and sold it to a magazine, you might be in trouble because the artist may have retained reporductive rights..
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
It seems that if this is a concern, it may be something you may want to consider inserting into your contract for your next job.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
In that respect, is it still "theft"?
As for the PE ethics exam, there's absolutely creative way to phrase it as more ethical.
E.g. In the interest of protecting the public, I, the engineer, should be at all time responsible for the works that I create. If I were to carry out work and simply hand reports over, there's the potential for the work to be altered.
I cannot be expected to remember every detail of a report twenty years later. Therefore, to ensure the public is always best served, I feel it is my responsibility to keep a copy of all my work. If, in the future, a failure occured, I would be able to use the original, untampered information to clearly determine if an error was made or if changes were made from when the report left my desk to when the widget was made.
I'm sure most people won't buy that but there's absolutely merit to the idea.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
The analogy is more correct if:
I hired you to take a photo portrait of my horse for the newspaper. You kept a copy of the photo (paper, digital, whatever), to prove you took the picture.
In this respect, is it still theft? Answer - Yes.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Wrong. Photographers always keep copies and often the negatives (that thing they used before digital cameras). The best of these are usually prominently displayed in their shops or submitted in competition. It is not theft.
I feel that if you are required to stamp it, then you have a legal right to possess a copy. Until a consensus of law-types weighs in, that's the stance I shall assume.
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
Hmmm. I am not aware of that. For the photos that I had a photographer take, I have the negatives/digital files. But, maybe the practice varies?
With regards to a consensus of law types weighing in, I defer to the associations who has juridiction. From both Ontario and NB, if I stamp a drawing, it does not imply I have any legal right to posses it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
I applaud your convictions however I find it interesting you place this over a professional right. I hope you are able to defend yourself properly when something happens. In these days of litigation, even the company you work for may not be as forthright, lawsuits are a harrowing experience and sadly a reality.
It appears from the apegnb article, that the issue remains unresolved in the eyes of many engineering professionals and they (apegnb) have opted to take a simplified legal response to a complex uncharted area that has possibly disasterous implications to the professional engineer.
Regards
VOD
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records
I guess thank you.
I don't feel that I am placing anything over my professional right. The basis of our discussion I believe, rests with wether there is a "professional right" to keep a copy of everthing you stamp. I feel that, as per my professional association's guidelines/case studies/publications, that there is not a professional right to keep a copy of a stamped drawing - unless provided for in the contract. I guess I also don't currently feel a need to keep an illegal copy.
With regards to a company or another engineer changing a stamped drawing (and keeping the original stamp on the drawing), I haven't come across that. Doing something like that is illegal, unethical, and dangerous. I guess I am fortuante, or lucky. In a situation like that, I am not too sure if having a copy would serve me much more than not having a copy. The other party would just claim that the copy I have is outdated, and I would have to fight just as hard in both cases.
To summarise everthing, I guess we all need to proceed as our conscience advise. I appreciate the discussion - it was useful.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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