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Copying sealed PE work for personal records
4

Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Copying sealed PE work for personal records

(OP)
Are you allowed to retain a copy your own sealed work for your personal records?  What about if you change jobs?  Can you take a copy of the work you produced with you (assuming it is not proprietary)?  Am I not still responsible for the design whether I work for Company A or Company B? What if I want to use portions of that design or detail in another job with another company.  It seems that there is nothing new under the sun especially in the civil/structural world, but what is the limit on taking work with you?  Thanks in advance.  

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

In this world no one gets what they deserve, they get what they negotiate.  There is nothing wrong with keeping a copy of what you stamp, in fact it makes good sense from a CYA standpoint.  

As far as taking the files with you when you leave, that is a negotiation.  If you leave with the files without having Firm A's blessing then you are stealing their product and should be prosecuted, certainly your PE lisence should be revoked.  If they agree to your taking them, then you need to closely follow any restrictions that the may have placed on the use of the files.  

David

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

On my last day at my last company I took a 4Mbyte memory stick into work.  I asked my manager if I could download pictures of the sites I had completed.  He said I could download any of the drawings and documents I had produced and could re-use, so long as they weren't commercially sensitive.  After all, they were still in my head so I could reproduce them if necessary.

I think the key is, ask.  If your company says yes, then take copies with you.  If they say no, then don't.  In the UK we don't have the issue of PE stamps, so I don't what additional implications that has.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

I think in most jurisdictions your required to keep copies.  Your on the drawing and if there's trouble in the future people may come after to you to answer questions.  In the worst case you may be sued. If the company won't let you have a copy then don't seal them.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

BJC,

I would like to differ.

In most companies, I am NOT allowed to take any documentation without permission. They consider it theft.

In most jurisdications, the COMPANY is required to keep records. That is why they have record retention policies and a documents control group.

I have had relative success at taking "non sensitive" and "non proprietary" documents with me when I leave the employ of a company. I have also had success asking for documents AFTER I had left, to use on my next job (obviously, the non sensitive and non proprietary type). People are pretty good about sharing the "common" stuff.

pldpe,

Having said that, ask your company whether you can take your stuff. Take what they give you permission to. Give back what they say you can not take.

In case of a lawsuit, chances are, your lawyer will subpeona the drawings from your company.

If your company has changed the drawing, and pass it off as yours, then they are committing fraud. Most stamped drawings are usually also filed with a government agency (part of the approval/application process). This makes it tougher for a company to wilfully commit fraud and get away with it.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

2
Ashereng,

"In case of a lawsuit, chances are, your lawyer will subpeona the drawings from your company."

What if the company has purged its files, in Canada I believe 7yrs?

What about the case of companies that don't exist when the lawsuit occurs?

This area has not been addressed in Canada by the respective engineering associations although the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of exemptions to copyright under certain circumstances applied to professionals (ie lawyers and teachers) and researchers.

Regards

VOD

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

There is also the case of you quiting the company.  Who dies the inspector or building company call?  They will probably call you because they can look up your name and pnone number on the net.  
If they call you can tell the inspector you don't work their and can't answer the question. Good luck on that, if you have won the lottery or retired you can risk POin an inspector or building official.  
You can call up your previous employer and tell them your getting questions and that you can refer the building official to them or answer them for $150 an hour.
The other scinaro is someone making changes to your design and documenting through the "as built" drawings only.
If your taking drawings you stamped you have some degree of ownership.  Your not stealing unless you take the design and reuse it or blantely copy it.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Yes, these are all valid points.

Haveing said that, if you take drawings that belongs to the company, it is still theft.

Yes, your stamp is on the drawing. Ownership of the drawing, in most employment cases, still rests with the company that you work for. Just because your stamp is on the drawing does not imply ownership.

If someone changes the drawing, then the stamp is nulled. If they then put your stamp on the drawing, then that is fraud.

In case of a problem, who does the inspector or building company call? Probably the companies that either did the original design, construction or has the contract for maintenance. Would they call the EOR? Probably only in a lawsuit. If your car has a problem, do you go back to the dealership or do you call the salesman that sold it to you? Similar analogy.

What happens if the company has purged its files? There is probably still a copy with the governing government agency - they tend to keep lots of things. I am not familiar with the "7 year". I know more than one company that I have worked at that kept their files for much longer. The only "7 year" rule that I know of is for taxes. The government typcially (not legally barred) can go back 7 years to search for / audit / request supporting documents on filings. If they find something, then all bets are off on how far they can go back.

Like I said, in most cases, I have been given drawings, documents, etc. when I have asked. Most of the time, I ask for them after I have left the company - for the next project. I still often get it, the non proprietary ones.

Quote (VOD):

This area has not been addressed in Canada by the respective engineering associations although the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of exemptions to copyright under certain circumstances applied to professionals (ie lawyers and teachers) and researchers.
I am not sure what you are referring to. Please clarify.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

From Florida Administrative Code (FAC) 61G15-30.009: Retention of Engineering Documents.
At least one copy of all documents containing the licensee’s signature, seal, date and all related calculations shall be retained by the licensee or the licensee’s employer for a minimum of three years from the date the documents were sealed.

Looks to me like the State of Florida allows an employee to keep a copy of anything they seal, regardless of all else (proprietary info, etc.).  But then, I'm no lawyer.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

The wording says licensee "or" licensee's employer which means that the documents shall be available within three years of stamping.  This clause does not grant licensee a right to retain a copy.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Quote (peo):

The Professional Engineers Act does not require
that engineers retain engineering documents for
a set length of time. Retention of documents is
therefore done at the discretion of the engineer,
employer, o r c l i e n t . Though documents are
often kept for reference purposes in anticipation
of future work, they are retained mainly
in case of possible legal action against the member
or firm. Documents should be kept for as
long as it is likely that a project might have an
action against it.
A person’s right to exercise legal action for claims
is governed by the Limitations Act, 2002, which
states, “no proceeding shall be commenced in
respect of any claim after the 15th anniversary
of the day on which the act or omission on
which the claim is based took place”.

Quote (peo):

Generally, copyright automatically belongs to the
author or authors. However, contractual relationships,
including implicit common-law contracts
between employees and employers, affect the ownership
of copyright. Usually, employment contracts
dictate that if a creative work is prepared
a s p a r t of the normal work provided by an
employee for an employer, the employer is the
owner of the copyright. Employee engineers,
either explicitly or implicitly, sign over to their
employer copyright and other intellectual property
rights on all intellectual output, including
inventions, when they enter into employment
relationships.

And here is the link:

http://www.peo.on.ca/publications/Guidelines/UseOfTheProfEngSeal_2005.pdf

From this, it seems that 15 years is the time frame for keeping stamped drawings, documents, etc.

Also from this, it seems that the drawings, as I said earlier, in most employement situations, belong to the employer.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Whyun,

Like I said, I'm no lawyer.  But what if the company folds?  Who has the legal responsibility then?  "They" can't go after the company, now can they?  I'd be curious to know if anyone has any information on case law related to engineers trying to keep/obtain copies of drawings they had stamped.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

I am also no lawyer and I don't have full understanding of the regulations in Florida.

Based solely on the wording of Florida Administrative Code (FAC) 61G15-30.009, stamped drawings shall be kept a minimum of 3 years by either an EOR or the company.  If the company folded within three years and the EOR has already left the firm, I suppose the company has a legal responsibility to release the drawings to the EOR.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Drawings submitted to building departments for review and subsequent issue of a Construction Permit/Occupancy Permit are available to the public, (including the person sealing the drawing).  Use of the drawings is covered by copyright laws.  In my career, I have borrowed specific details from others submitted plans and reused them in my building design with no fear of lawsuits or retaliation.  "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." If I was to build an identical building with no changes or modifications, a good attorney might be able to make me divide my fee, but I doubt it.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

I agree also that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I also believe that theft is theft.

Imitation is fine.

Stealing is not.

Quote (apegnb):

Nonetheless, the committee understands
that intellectual property generated in the
course of work by an employee engineer
(reports, letters, drawings, design notes) is
the property of the employer, in lieu of other
contractual or conditions-of-employment
arrangements. As well, unauthorized
removal of material unrelated to his assignment
by an employee could not be defended.

It seems that this case study is saying that the drawings belong to the employer (unless other contratual arrangements are made).

Quote (cbc article):

The court agreed that the legal material being copied is copyright applicable but that it falls under the exception of "fair dealing."

Continue Article

This exception allows some institutions, like libraries and museums, to infringe on copyrighted material because it is being used for research and study.

This seems to relate to "public" entities. As a corporation and/or individual, I don't think this relates. Hence, the drawing still belongs to the company (unless otherwise contractually accouted for) and if one makes a copy for ones personal use, it is still copyright infringement.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Ashereng,

From the apegnb article, I agree that the employer has ownership, but there is another point here that needs to be addressed.  Entitlement for the signing professional engineer.  

This is a mute point where these drawings etc. become public domain through access to information where applicable (ie government agencies, etc.).

VOD

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

I have actually been asked by prospective employers to bring examples of my previous work to an interview.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

VOD,

Per agegnb, it seems tht entitlement for the EOR is limited to the employment contract - as is my experience.

csd72,

If they want to see an example, I ask my old boss if I can have a copy.



Again, my feeling is theft is theft. If it is not yours, then ask for it.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

But is something theft if you have zero intention of using it in the future for any personal gain?  The only reason you have a copy is for personal liability protection.  

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

I used to work for an employer who did not keep copies of stamped drawings. They also used to issue drawings with disclaimers all over them. These disclaimers could easily be covered over by the customer, the drawings copied and submitted to a building department (Copiers are pretty good these days). I felt that this employer risked much and I didn't stamp any of their work.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

SylvestreW,

If I come to your house, and take something (like a picture), but I have no intention of using it in the future for any personal gain, is it theft?

Put it another way, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?


EddyC,

My answer is based on non-fraud cases. With a really good forger, I am sure they can put my stamp and signature on almost anything. Since my stamp is kept at work (so I can stamp whatever), they don't even have to forge the stamp.

Assuming everyone is not into forgery or fraud, the drawings will usually be there when I need it.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Ashereng,

Your example has no relevance to the discussion. If I came to your house, took down your picture and photocopied it then returned the picture - then that would be an appropriate analogy.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

csd72,

Fair enough. That is a better analogy. It is still theft. No different than ripping a CD.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

csd72,

So, in respect to the discussion, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

csd 72 -Not even close.
The picture I took involved the public interest and safety.  I am by law the responsible engineer.  I have a responsiblity to the people.  The state has required me to do so. If I can't trust or don't feel my former employeer will be in business I will keep the drawings.
If you take that picture on the wall and sold it to a magazine, you might be in trouble because the artist may have retained reporductive rights..

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

According to apegnb, if you do keep the drawings (or a copy of the drawings, or similar facismile in whatever form), it seems you are in violation of their policies and findings, unless there is provision in your employment contract otherwise.

It seems that if this is a concern, it may be something you may want to consider inserting into your contract for your next job.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Actually, to extend the analogy, it would be as if I were the original artist who created the picture, sold it to you but kept a copy for my personal records to prove I was the one who created it.  

In that respect, is it still "theft"?

As for the PE ethics exam, there's absolutely creative way to phrase it as more ethical.  
E.g. In the interest of protecting the public, I, the engineer, should be at all time responsible for the works that I create.  If I were to carry out work and simply hand reports over, there's the potential for the work to be altered.  
I cannot be expected to remember every detail of a report twenty years later.  Therefore, to ensure the public is always best served, I feel it is my responsibility to keep a copy of all my work.  If, in the future, a failure occured, I would be able to use the original, untampered information to clearly determine if an error was made or if changes were made from when the report left my desk to when the widget was made.

I'm sure most people won't buy that but there's absolutely merit to the idea.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

SylvestreW,

The analogy is more correct if:

I hired you to take a photo portrait of my horse for the newspaper. You kept a copy of the photo (paper, digital, whatever), to prove you took the picture.

In this respect, is it still theft? Answer - Yes.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Ashereng,

Wrong.  Photographers always keep copies and often the negatives (that thing they used before digital cameras).  The best of these are usually prominently displayed in their shops or submitted in competition.  It is not theft.

I feel that if you are required to stamp it, then you have a legal right to possess a copy.  Until a consensus of law-types weighs in, that's the stance I shall assume.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Pat,

Hmmm. I am not aware of that. For the photos that I had a photographer take, I have the negatives/digital files. But, maybe the practice varies?


With regards to a consensus of law types weighing in, I defer to the associations who has juridiction. From both Ontario and NB, if I stamp a drawing, it does not imply I have any legal right to posses it.


"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

Ashereng,

I applaud your convictions however I find it interesting you place this over a professional right.  I hope you are able to defend yourself properly when something happens.  In these days of litigation, even the company you work for may not be as forthright, lawsuits are a harrowing experience and sadly a reality.

It appears from the apegnb article, that the issue remains unresolved in the eyes of many engineering professionals and they (apegnb) have opted to take a simplified legal response to a complex uncharted area that has possibly disasterous implications to the professional engineer.

Regards

VOD

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

I believe it is responsible to retain a personal copy of anything you stamp. resonsibility for the inegrity of a stamped drawing is a personal responsibility that can not be deligated to the corperation. Thus if you have responsibility for the work you have the right to fair and reasonable access. It clearly is not theft. Theft involves econmic loss. Copying a CD, stealling a painting all invove econmic loss. Keepin a personal record of your work to answer questions in the future does not cause econmic loss. actively using the drawings ou paid to devlop by your first company to jump start work at your new company would be considered econmic loss and possible theft. However, if you tamped the drawings, it probably is not that difficult to recreate from memory and that is not theft.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

In my opinion, keeping a copy of the drawings is not theft but using it for anything other than proving your design in the event of a challenge to that design does amount to theft.

RE: Copying sealed PE work for personal records

VOD,

I guess thank you.

I don't feel that I am placing anything over my professional right. The basis of our discussion I believe, rests with wether there is a "professional right" to keep a copy of everthing you stamp. I feel that, as per my professional association's guidelines/case studies/publications, that there is not a professional right to keep a copy of a stamped drawing - unless provided for in the contract. I guess I also don't currently feel a need to keep an illegal copy.

With regards to a company or another engineer changing a stamped drawing (and keeping the original stamp on the drawing), I haven't come across that. Doing something like that is illegal, unethical, and dangerous. I guess I am fortuante, or lucky. In a situation like that, I am not too sure if having a copy would serve me much more than not having a copy. The other party would just claim that the copy I have is outdated, and I would have to fight just as hard in both cases.

To summarise everthing, I guess we all need to proceed as our conscience advise. I appreciate the discussion - it was useful.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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