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Are drawings needed anymore?

Are drawings needed anymore?

Are drawings needed anymore?

(OP)
In the coming and existing CAD day and age of 3d models as the carrier of information - Do we need drawings anymore?
Are drawings a needed legal document?

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

There are several threads in GD&T which address this, 2 most recent are:

thread1103-182896 thread1103-182500

For the forseable future there will be areas of industry that will still need drawings, or at least a combination of model and drawing.

There are many things that need to be considered and addressed before going fully 3D, just invoking ASME Y14.41 by itself doesn't seem enough.

That said some areas are already well advanced with implementation of Model Based Definition (MBD), such as aerospace & automotive.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I just got back from a jobsite.  We're still using paper out there.

As handy as some of the new computers are, a plain old paper drawing rolled out on the workbench at the jobsite will still be the norm in the field.

That is not to say that the design and approval process may actually take place without a paper drawing, but even that is still a stretch.  I still find it a lot easier to examine a paper drawing laid out on my desk, perhaps swapping back and forth between it and several others, while checking references and tags.

old field guy

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

For AEC work, authority having jurisdiction which approve and permit contract documents needs a hard copy to put their permit stamp.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

When I write on my screen it gets really messy.  I'll be using paper til I die because designs change as long as they are being used.

David

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I read an article in Mechanical Engineering awhile back about how all this 3D model data from years past was in danger of being lost because of discontinued or changed modeling software, incompatible file types, etc.

Legacy used to mean something of value handed down from the past. It now means worthless crap nobody supports:)

Never have that problem with paper.

Regards,

Mike

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

  Depends on the industry.  Civil engineering will probably never go for it (though it is a possibility with ever more powerful computers being made), but as KENAT pointed out, it is becoming more common in the the aerospace and automotive industries.  PLM software aids in the approval and revision records with electronic reviews and sign-offs, and this practice is recognized as legitimate by the FAA.
  That said, most of the MBD files that I have seen do carry along a drawing sheet to show the revision level and to note the interpretation method used, along with other basic information.  The product is otherwise fully defined in the model file.
  The only way for a large enterprise manufacturing such complex assemblies to stay ahead in the market is to embrace this technology and run with it.  Meanwhile, sell your stock in electric eraser and drawing board manufacturers!
pc3

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

As to the software becoming obsolete or useless, this is a real problem.  A certain large european aerospace conglomerate shot itself in the foot by not running concurrent versions of CATIA, resulting in major delays of their HUGE new jet.  Some divisions within the company (but in different countries) refused to invest the time and money necessary to implement V5, so remained on V4.  Apparently the electrical harnesses couldn't fit as originally routed due to a size discrepency when V4 files were converted to V5.
Most of the companies I am familiar with are much more cautious than this, sometimes waiting until two or three new versions have come out before updating their software.  When they do update, it is considered a cost of doing business to run ALL part files, legacy and current, through a conversion program so that all data is current and usable.  

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Not just software, but hardware as well.  I have several gigs of project data on Iomega Jaz disks (circa 1998), and my internal drive is busted.  I can't access it.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Paper has it's place. You miss fewer mistakes when you print a drawing to check it. It is easier to mark up a print than a cad file. Many CAD systems are less than adequate for use with Y14.41 and Model only definition. Most companies do not have the file discipline in place to use MBD exclusively.

All that aside, I can see MBD being the standard and for mechanical in the next 5-10 years. Our CAD systems will not be incapable forever, in fact they are getting closer by the year. Most machine shops can program directly from a 3d model already and only use the drawing to determine tolerances, thread callouts and check parts when a cmm is unavailable or impractical. Electronic markup software is currently available (Autodesk provides Design Review for free on their website).

As long as you can completely define the model without a drawing and as long as you can keep track (revision control/legacy storage)of the model files, there is no reason that you need a drawing anymore.  

David

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

All the drawings at our plant are stored electronically.

If I want to get a few pieces of info off a drawing, I'll pull it up on my screen and view it there.

If a piece of equipment breaks and my task for the next hour, day, or week is to understand and troubleshoot that equipment, then I will print out the drawing so I can make notes on it and carry it around with me to the field and to meetings.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

All design in my field (control and relay protection) is done via CAD system - in my company it is Elcad. It is much more effective, no comment! But I cannot imagine how to do field work- either commissioning, either maintenance  looking on the screen of laptop where this wire is going to smile

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

(OP)
I really appreciate everyone's input. I work as a design checker - I hear a dying breed - with a large class 8 truck OEM. I am constantly hearing arguments for not having a drawing. Of course we have developed processes and database software to carry most of a parts information within that system but not all of the world appears to be able to function from a CAD model. Including our own inspection groups in the US production plant. I am a fan for the a paper drawing but began my career as a CAD designer. So I see the emmence power that way of working can produce.
Again thank you for all of your information.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I agree with ewh.  It depends on the particular industry.  I can't imagine a 3D model of conduit layouts for a building being cost effective, especially for renovations,, upgrades, etc...  

I think drawings that illustrate: "Run conduit from point A to point B", will always be needed.  In the construction world, I don't 2D drawings dissappearing anytime soon.  

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

You may be able to do without drawings in mechanical or aerospace industries, but in construction this is not an option.

I cant imagine all the builders walking around a construction site with their laptop! Also many of the builders that I have worked would not understand 3D drawings.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I totally agree it is industry specific.

In automotive some body panel parts are now so complex only modelled parts work and 2D drawings are already a thing of the past. I am amazed that some companies that produce parts like castings and mouldings still use 2D, I would imagine they will soon fall by the wayside, I simply cannot see how they can remain competitive.

For things like building and electrical it is hard to see 2D drawings going away

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Answer to Question 1: Yes, drawings (I assume you mean paper drawings) are still needed. It is often not practical for everyone to gather around the notebook in the field (assuming you even bring one to the field).

If you have the oppportunity, the next time you go to the field, try NOT bringing a paper copy of a drawing and see if that works. Simple test, yes?

Answer to Qestion 2: Yes, drawings are legal documents. That is why there is an engineer's stamp on it. In all the jurisdictions that I have worked in, submittals to government agencies is always in paper form, stamped and signed.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Quote:

Meanwhile, sell your stock in electric eraser and drawing board manufacturers!
I didn't know there was such as thing as electric erasers.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Electric erasers, and don't forget eraser shields!

Guess you didn't know about that either? winky smile

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

electronic mastering is with us today.  sure our office kills more trees than ever, now we also get nice little placards from the paper re-cyclers telling us how much we've saved by recycling (good grief).

sure drawings are the legal document today; there's nothing to stop that changing in the future.  sure, they're easier to look at today (compared with a laptop screen), but that can easily change.

i deal more with reports, stress analysis. these are transitioning over to electronic masters, with embedded spreadsheets and digital signatures and date stamps.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I work in Automotive designing plastic parts.  We model everything is 3D and create a 2d print for the toolmaker which is a controlled document.  However, some toolmakers cannot use our 3D data to create the tooling and must go from our print (Horrible!).  These prints take forever to create and check and that is without modeling draft into the part.  Others can use the model data so our prints are very basic.  The prints include only the dimensions we wish to be measured, or that are critical to the toolmaker when creating the molds etc.  

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

dotdash, design checkers do seem a dying breed, I and a couple here are desperately trying to fight a come back but it's a constant battle.

You are correct that many ‘view & markup’ packages aren’t really adequate yet for design checking.  Also maybe it’s because I’m stuck in 2D but I often find it easier to review a design based on drawings than spinning a model around on my monitor and having to interrogate it to find dimensions.

The places that seem to make most use of MBD are ones that seem to have what might be called ‘integrated’ supply chains.  In other words the OEM picks the CAD system and forces everyone in their supply change to use it.  This is fine for the big boys, not so good for small & medium firms.   Not only do you need compatible CAD systems (they don’t have to be the same but need to be able to share some kind of annotated format like .jt) but you need the configuration control discipline etc to go with it etc.

In my opinion drawings, or for complex ‘freeform’ type parts a combined drawing & model are going to be the way to go for many areas of industry for a long time yet, but I’ve been wrong beforesmile.

elecricpete, how young are you?  I'm only 29 but am aware of electric erasers (my checker still has one he uses on his redlines), eraser shields (I have a mangled one somewhere) 'bendy rulers' (not sure the real name but they were the ones used to draw smooth lines when effectively 'joining the dots') plastic leds, scalpel (both for scratching ink off certain types of prints & for cutting sections out of linen drawings that had been amended too many times), linen drawing media, full E size prints, tracers...


RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

buildings and plants are used for 50+ years, but computer programs ( and storage media) have a half life of about 5 yrs. Not only do the programs become obsolete, but the companies that service the program also disappear . Certainly the engineers and programmers that are aware the program's limitations retire and take with them the root knowledge of the program's basis.  

In the year 2057, maybe ACAD version 345 will be in use, and maybe it is backwardly compatible with ACAD v 12, but maybe not. ( maybe Rocky 345 will be showing in theatres as well).

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

buildings and plants are used for 50+ years, but computer programs ( and storage media) have a half life of about 5 yrs. Not only do the programs become obsolete, but the companies that service the program also disappear .
----------
davefitz, you hit the point! In the company I worked for last 15 years we changed from AutoCAD v.9 to 2002. We have projects stored on 5,25 inch diskettes, on 120 MB (Huge size!!!) strimmer cassetes, on CD's. How can one open now something stored somewhere on first two media types?
5,25 floppy drives are not more produced, strimmer cassette drive is saved somewhere in the storage, but it needs DOS drivers (now floppy disk with these drivers is missing) - so these archives can be considered lost. And this is situation inside the company!

Now I must evaluate and update a project where original design is made 10 years ago y another company using "Microstation" software. I have original files, but only in "Microstation" format. Only hardcopies help me to find what is installed in the control panels. And I have two options - either to find somebody who still uses Microstation and to ask him to convert files in .dxf, either totally redraw paper copies!

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Quote:

buildings and plants are used for 50+ years, but computer programs ( and storage media) have a half life of about 5 yrs. Not only do the programs become obsolete, but the companies that service the program also disappear .

Isn't that why they came up with Iges format so that you submit copies of to the customer, then it's their problem to keep it on current media...  winky smile

Really useful when your customer isn't the government I know.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

"...half life of about 5 yrs."

Not any of the major players.  I've been working with the same CAD system for 20 years so far, and they keep improving.  Plus I can still modify a 20 year old file if I need to.  Some CAD systems may be bought out and integrated with other products, but the base functionality will most often remain.  It does take an investment to ensure that your files do not become obsolete, but it can and is done.  If you decide to not make that investment, then yes, your data may become worthless.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I think I'm killing more trees now than I did when everything was on paper.  I print out the pages I want to look at because it is much easier to see it on paper, but then I'm encouraged to throw away the printouts (into the recycle bin, but still) when I'm done, to reduce clutter.  Then I decide I need to look at them again, so I print some more...

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

We do MDD's (minimal dimensioned drawings) with trusted venders and our internal manufacturing.  Other than that sending out a native solid model exposes proprietary data.

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
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(_)/ (_)

(In reference to David Beckham) "He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right."  -- George Best

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

as an example of obselescence, I see that in oil field service areas, displays of 3d underground deposit strength is displayed using 3d hollograms. If 3d bld.,  plant, and piping design migrates to 3d hollogram displays, it seems like the whole concept of planar dwgs will become obsolete.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Careful...

Do we need engineers anymore?

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

davefikingpe:
nope. just healthcare workers and lawyers. 99% of the future economy right there.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

DaveVikingPE

Surely it's more "Do we need Draughtsmen (Draughtspersonages?)" any more.

Real engineers don't do drawings rightwinky smile

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

We migrated to full 3d solid modelling a few years back, and so far as everyone but the draggers is concerned it is a much better system. Any computer can access the 3D models of any car line, and if we want to compare with a car made elsewhere around the globe it isn't that much work to bring it over, and superimpose them. Learning to drive the visualisation software takes a few hours.

This means we can sit around a tube and talk about the problems without asking the draughtie to interpret what is in front of us.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

in big field constructions for the moment no

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

After 35 years in the engineering field, I have been asked to learn AutoCAD and Bentley MicroStation.  The current ratio of technical designers to engineers is 3:11 and the the boss envisions 1:11 as a goal when all the engineers are proficient in CAD.  The amount of learning required to go from AutoCAD lite to version 2000 is enormous.  I will buy stock in the ozalid paper manufacturers for the future bluelines made from paper/linen originals, (which I am competent to produce).

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

I can only imagine the kind of look I would get if I hand a flash drive to a contractor when they ask for plans.  They aren't going to buy AutoCAD to read drawings.  You can't easily scale off of a pdf unless you print it.  

For civil work, paper is here to stay.  

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

For mechanical work, NEVER scale the drawing.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

In theory, but when you've been waiting months for the product information you have to interface with and all you have is an assembly drawing you have no choice.  Then again maybe that's a failing of project managment.  The important thing is to scale from a given dimension both in X & Y.

It's definitely bad practice to scale from the drawing, at least in mechanical work, but NEVER say neversmile.

I really don't see drawings going away completely anytime soon but I'll be interested to be proved wrong.

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Some SciFi assumption - paper drawings may be ommited totally when some kind of "use-it-anywhere" projection technolgy will be invented. Probably some kind of hologram or like this. And of course the projector must be portable, low power consumption and to be possibile to make remarks back to the source file.
Too many requirements? But would somebody imagine just 20 years ago how powerfull will be a modern battery operated(!!!) laptop? Or 10 years ago that more than two billion people will have mobile phones?
We will see after another 20 years, if God allows us!

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Certain types of information, schematics come to mind, do not lend themselves real well to a 3D representation.  As such I do not see 2D or a drawing format going away any time soon.  You may potentially view them on electronic paper but they will still be there.

Regards,

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Well did you know that English was once supposed to be a one letter one voice that means English was supposed to be; leter instead of letter and ETC but the lord of Kent said that common people would be able to read laws and papers and not only nobility. The PROPOSAL WAS REJECTED. Now imagine if all people would be able to read technical drawings. Prices of Engineering would drop, and engineers that are supposed to draw those 3D draftings will not allow that to happened. You would need only workers and a big screen for them no management no one to coordinate them play smart because if they were able to create 3D model in their head they would not need a leading field Engineer. And still basic schematics 2D are more understandable even to an Engineer because they make room for freedom to adjust project to a site conditions. So no way. And how would you make extra big money on lets say power plant if you create 3D drafting where you can understand everything... The guy that is buying would say.. Ok but that is not 200M $ that is less than 120 M$ you can see that its so obvious :)

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

What?

RE: Are drawings needed anymore?

Not sure I get all your points sslobodan but having worked at my current place over a year now I can confirm that being able to create or even read Engineering drawings is not a pre-requisite for employment in an Engineering capacity.sad

We could get rid of a the fancy terminology & standard conventions etc on drawings but then we'd have to have several sheets of notes explaining what we meant.

I think I'll stick with the drawing conventions etc outlined in the various national/international standards.

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