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A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game
21

A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

(OP)
Scenario:

Engineer X works for Firm A.
Engineer X is required to work 8 hours a day; he is assigned a slot from 0700 to 1600 - that includes an unpaid hour for lunch. This is company policy.

Engineer X accompanies Firm A's project team to a meeting with Client Z at the future jobsite.

Client Z desires that Firm A design a new, $10 million dual-use facility for producing both pornographic media for commercial retail distribution/sale and for publishing literature advocating cigarette smoking, dropping out of school, lowering the drinking age to 13, and encouraging lowering the age of sexual consent to 12.

The meeting runs late and Engineer X informs Project Manager J - in front of the meeting - that he must leave because a) by the time Firm A's team gets back to the office, Engineer X will have worked more than his required 8 hours, and b) he will miss his transportation home. Engineer X excuses himself from the meeting to catch the next bus back to the office.

Deconstruct the above in terms of morality, ethical behavior, and professionalism.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Engineer X is engaging in Malicious Obedience, presumably because Firm A treats him like chattel.  Firm A would likely describe his behavior as unprofessional, on the papers they send to Unemployment Office.


In the parallel universe where our hero is Lawyer X, he will have similar rules of servitude, and it will be privately explained to him (he being slow on the uptake on account of being related to engineers) that he is expected to produce a certain number of billable hours each month, which will likely  require him to work 16 hours a day.

But there are some differences in the lawyer's universe:

The meeting would run very long.  The (law) Firm A would take everyone out to lunch, and later bill Client Z both for the lunch and for the time.

Then Lawyer X would go back to his office, in a limousine.  The cost of the limo and the time spent in it would later be billed to Client Z.

Lawyer X would work late into the night.  He would get hungry and order food from an expensive restaurant, delivered to his office.  Client Z would be billed for the cost of the food, the delivery fee, the tip, and the time taken to consume the food.

Since Lawyer X was still working when the last bus went by, he goes home in a limousine.  The limo and the time spent in it are billed to Client Z.

Before going to bed, Lawyer X, um, squeezes out the food consumed on behalf of Client Z, and reviews his notes of the day while doing so.  The time is billed to Client Z.



In a couple of years, Engineer X might be lucky enough to pick up some work, constructing a new huge luxurious home for Lawyer X, who has retired.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Morality - Did Engineer X leave because they had to get back to the office (to catch a ride home), or did they just not feel comfortable designing a building for "questionable" uses?

Professionalism - When Engineer X excused himself, was the meeting winding down, or was Engineer X watching the clock, waiting for the end of the work day?

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

(OP)
More info, though Mike got it (great term "malicious obedience"): The team from Firm A went to the meeting offsite in a company vehicle; the only way back to the office - save other transportation - is to wait until the meeting is over.

The meeting was running late - late enough for Engineer X to caclulate that he would be working too long and would miss his regular transportation home, unless he left early, that is, the meeting wasn't over when he excused himself. Assume that Engineer X understood that the meeting wasn't winding down anytime soon.

The rest is up to you, melone.

"Malicious Obedience" speaks volumes.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

2
Could "X" work more hours on some days and less on others? If "X" was required to stay past his/her transportation appointment, "A" should arrange alternate transportation.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Engineers are professionals and Firm A should treat him as such.  Engineer X should work whatever hours it takes to get his job done, 8 hours or 16 hours and Firm A should have policies to allow time swapping or something.

As a professionl company, Firm A should warn Engineer about the meeting so he can can adjust his transportation and if Firm A was unable too, then they should either accept  Engineer X reason to leave or pay for a cab (or something).

As for the project itself, as a professional Enineer, X should not consider the purpose unless he is asked to supply or handle the contents of the building.  If he has personal or religious beliefs that requir him not to, then he should resign.  A good Firm would respect those beliefs and transfer him to another assignment UNLESS, Firm A and X had both agreed in the beginning that work may include such designs.  In this case, how many porno places can be designed in a year.  If the firm specialized in the manufacture of wepons and the engineer didn't believe in war and the Firm didn't tell X, but X said he objected to weapons, then X should be reassigned to all non weapons based projects.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

(OP)
Good work, all!

Thanks for playing...

..the game has no end, either! Anyone can jump in!

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Careful about bringing up morality, since this can quickly get into religious discussion that is inappropriate here. I'll stick to the ethical/legal side.

Firm A is wrong if they are trying to claim X is exempt while treating him as non-exempt. If X has spent some time outside of the 0700-1600 range, they may be liable for back up OT.

Pornography minimizes the risk of STDs to a few while maximizing the number the number non-exposed individuals enjoying an act. Engineers who are pledged to public safety should support this idea.

Likewise, engineers should support the lowering of the drinking age or doing away with the concept altogether. When alcohol is simply a part of everyday life, Europe has proven that it is less of an issue. Making it is the forbidden adult activity that it is the USA makes it much more attractive and problematic.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

My opinion on the matter:
1)  On the time issue, he should stay for the meeting and hash things out with the employer later if this is some sort of sore point with one party or the other.
2)  On the moral/ethical/legal situation, he needs to discuss with the employer beforehand.  The assumption here seems to be that the company is a "Do anything for a buck" company, and in that case, he is liable to have quite a few other issues with them as well.  Engineers are expected to be honest, to be of "good character", however that is defined, and it's not unexpected that some employees would not be willing to work in support of some types of programs.  If there is simply no limit as to what a person is willing to do for money, he's really not suited for the engineering field.  And if there is a limit, you have to expect that it will not always coincide with the employer's limits.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

(OP)
Excellent responses/takes on the situation.

My take:

1. The project manager needs to pick his team wisely. Engineer X' behavior is embarassing and unprofessional. However, Engineer X, as pointed out above, is, per the description, an "exempt" employee and behaves obeidiently (albeit maliciously). It is sage advice that the PM should coordinate the meeting in advance - especially pertaining to travel arrangements. If Engineer X - as detemrined in advance - will not be able to stay late, get him off the team.

2. Engineer X acted unprofessionally. He should have stayed late and worked it out later. His behavior makes Firm A look bad in the eyes of a customer and that's the kind of thing a customer won't forget.

3. Engineer X *may have* acted ethically. I'm saying he was ethical pertaining to his (implied?) contract with his employer. I'm saying he was not ethical pertaining to his employer's interests. This is a grey area for me.

4. Morally - well... Who is the arbiter of "good character"? My scenario implied that the activities in which Client Z engages are lawful and legal. Client Z also, implied, employs people, pays taxes, etc. Since when is "good character" impugned by  "legal activities? Larry Flynt is a scoundrel in most "decent" people's eyes - yet what's he doing that's illegal? And as such he is entitled to equal protection and equal opportunity? He pays rent, taxes, etc. Now, Firm A may always choose to not do business with Client Z for whatever reason. Client Z most likely was granted a permit by the local community/state/etc. and thus has approval to conduct their business in said community.

More thoughts are welcome!

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

I don't think it is unprofessional to excuse yourself from a meeting that is running late if you do so in a polite and professional manner. Giving reason a) in front of the client isn't professional but reason b) is perfectly valid if explained properly. If Engineer X had no warning that the meeting might run late, he had no opportunity to make alternate transport arrangements, find someone else to pick up his kids or any of the other reasons why you should be allowed to leave on time if necessary.

As for the morality issues hinted at, Engineer X may be asked to design a lot of movie production facilities and printing houses. The building might be taken over by another group advocating abstinence (alcoholic and sexual)and lobbying for the banning of cigarettes. Activities which might be just as offensive to a different group of people.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

2
If X's hours of work stipulate 0700 to 1600, no quarter given, then as of 1601 to 0659 his time is his own, ethically or morally and legally.

If they want him to stick around they either change the contract, or organise with him in advance.

That is a non-professional contract, therefore it is unfair to expect a professional performance. I've never seen a contract that doesn't include a getout clause like "or as necessary for operational reasons", but that is not what is being postulated.

I don't see how the intended use of the plant actually affects the argument about time, that is a whole separate question. Would I feel comfortable working on a church? No, not really. Would I do it? Hmmm. It's probably less directly harmful than building a land-mine factory, or a cigarette factory, but then it's probably got more potential for long term societal damage, although I suppose the average church only has a small effect on society as a whole. There again cigarettes kill one at a time. Well I'm obviously on the Dark side since I work on cars.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Engineer X should have found out about the project prior to the meeting and voiced any objections prior to attending the meeting.  If he has a problem with the project he should request that another engineer be assigned to it.  He can do that for moral reasons (no problem there).  I hear that Bob's a scumbag and will work on anything!  He could take in the meeting if Bob wasn't available.  I've declined projects because of a client (the developer had been unreasonable with a contractor on an earlier project and I didn't like his methods) not for moral reasons (I'm a scumbag, too <G>)

Having gone to the meeting... if the time is running over, he should discreetly contact his transportation and inform them or any others that he will be delayed.  He should continue through the meeting and make alternative arrangements to get home from the office or the meeting.  He should not make a scene... it's important that he portray the company in its best image.  The time issue can be dealt with later.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

"My scenario implied that the activities in which Client Z engages are lawful and legal."

I assumed that was the intent of the description.  If in fact your ideas of what is right and wrong are governed entirely by what is legal or illegal, than that covers it.  But keep in mind that in the big picture, the laws are written to reflect generally what the populace as a whole feels is right or wrong- the laws are guided by people's opinions, not the other way around.  So there will always be people with differing perceptions in one direction or another.

In the particular example described, the printing of the pornography may or may not be legal- depending on the location and the nature of it.  If I'm not mistaken, even in Europe, they have limitations on what is acceptable and what is not.  And seems like I recall Larry Flynt having lots and lots of legal problems through the years- so I wouldn't assume that whatever he's doing at the moment is necessarily legal.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

2
Nice discussion.  Glad to see there is little confusion between ethics and morality here.  I can't stand it when people mix up ethics, morals, and "I feel" whinery.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

(OP)
Thanks for playing, everyone!

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Engineer X works for Firm A, not Client Z. That is what his paycheck & labor department records indicate. Too many companies expect partner-like behavior from salaried employees.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

EddyC... not partnerlike, but professional... you should be projecting yourself as well as your firm.  I've worked with a couple of outfits where only the partners take in meetings... real pain!

Dik

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

(OP)
What's the difference between "partnerlike" and "professional"? I think I understand it, but this sounds interesting.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

This is from a current job ad for a mechanical engineer:

"... Candidate MUST meet attendance and punctuality requirements   ..."

Apparently the (unknown) employer has a chronic problem ... not tardiness and absenteeism, but something else that causes those behaviors to be expressed.  Just like our Firm A, apparently.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Assuming that the engineer in question had prior knowledge that the meeting was to be held, and did not have prior arrangements that his/her employer was made aware of ahead of time (i.e. My only way home is to take the bus, the last bus leaves at this time, I need to leave at this time. Or, My kids will be home alone if I am not home by this time, therefore I must leave to catch a bus at this time. etc.), he/she may have been justified in leaving if his/her input was not required to continue the meeting and the need to leave was explained in a professional way (perhaps as an aside to the employer).

Standing up and announcing that you are leaving in the middle of the meeting would be very unprofessional in my opinion. As to the use of the building, as long as the engineering company is not agreeing to erect 40' tall statues of naked people or design a large sign for the roof that says "sex with minors is fun!", I can't see any reason that the intended use of the building is of any concern to the engineer. I personally would find the uses described to be morally repugnant and I would perhaps pursue other avenues (outside of work) to prevent the company from setting up shop near by, but as a professional I would be obligated to assist the company I work for.

David

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Morals don't come into play in this question.  If the Engineer didn't want to do the job, he/she should quit.

Professionalism do!  
The engineer should not have just left.  There's reasons taxi's exist. The 8-5 work time is irrelevant. You put in the time necessary and either get paid for it or get over-time. If the firm won't do either, time to find a new job.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

SylvestreW...
As a professional, as opposed to chattel, you should have the right to decline a project you find morally reprehensible.  A good employer should be able to accommodate this.  This can be done without involving the client.  Depending on your skills, you may become less marketable if you are too selective... you should have some latitude without having to quit.

Dik

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

In line with aardvark's suggestion we should destroy all larger than life statues of naked people, starting with Michelangelo's David.

And we should put curtains over full length mirrors as well.

Or maybe just poke our eyes out.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

For summer work one year, I was at the end of a printing press, stacking paper.  I had found out that the company had previously turned down a contract to print Playboy, due to the “family/educational” nature of the rest of their work.

I tell you what, I would have much rather stacked easy-on-the-eyes pict . . .um . . . articles from a magazine than SAT test booklets. Either way, it paid the same.

For the OP, completely unprofessional.  Ethically?  Well, perhaps this is a case of the engineer counteracting non-ethical treatment of the employer.  One who is constantly harping on production, not allowing for overtime (paid), and just let 3 people go to be sure he earned more money.  Perhaps Engineer A took the threats and verbal abuse seriously and figured he should follow the letter of the law, when it comes to his employer’s demands, and too bad if it hurt him.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

I remember being an unsalaried EIT.  Getting dragged off to meetings across the state to remote towns with no taxi service.  Informed as we left that we would be back by 4 pm.  Arriving back at 8 pm.  Now with my kids' care closing by 5:30 pm, I can relate.

Skipping ethics, professionalism, and morality, I state that employer and employee both acted pragmatically.  Now they both know where they stand and any complaining in the future is just whining.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

If engineer X has an objection to the pornography, then he/she should look at it as follows.

If the porn company does not have a building then they will have no choice but to do it outside.

He/she is doing the community a moral service by providing a shield (building) between this and the community

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Morality/ethics is a personal judgement - what is moral/ehtical to me (eg eating hormone injected beef), may be immoral/unehtical to others (eg a vegan). So, I usually leave that to the person with the moral issue. I usually deal their position either way.

Professionalism is also variable. In some places, it is very professional to come to work with surf shorts, T-shirt and your dog. In some places, it is not so much. So, I also usually leave that to the person with the professional issues. I usually deal with their position either way also.

If I am only paid to work for 8 hours, and my employer requires me to work say 10 hours, then they are requied by law to compensate me. If not, there are laws against that - talk to the HR department.

In the example, it does not say whether PM "J" lets Engineer "X" go, so there are some possiblilities.

So, if "J" lets "X" go. In this case, everyone is happy, no professional, ethical or moral or legal issues.

So, if "J" does not let "X" go, and "X" goes anyways, then "J" is upset and thinks "X" is unprofessional. "X" is happy, but thinks "J" is unprofessional to even think of asking "X" to work for free.

So, if "J" does not let "X" go, and "X" stays, then "J" is happy. "X" is unhappy and thinks "J" is unethical, unprofessional and immoral for making "X" work for free. In addition, "J" has broken the law - he is making "X" work for free (ie forced labour, slavery, etc). In this case, "X" would have a good case to go to the courts.

In all cases, I follow the law. I usually try to follow both the letter and intent of the law - but always the letter of the law. Ethics, Moral, Professionalism is usually greyer than the legality of things. So, follow the law it is.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Here we go.  It was too good to last.

Professional ethics is not a "personal judgment" or "what's good for you".  Ethics is about conduct.  Ethics may be based on morality, but ethics define acceptable behavior, regardless of what one specfically feels or believes.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

"
As a professional, as opposed to chattel, you should have the right to decline a project you find morally reprehensible.  A good employer should be able to accommodate this.  This can be done without involving the client.  Depending on your skills, you may become less marketable if you are too selective... you should have some latitude without having to quit.
Dik"

I agree that a person should have the right, and a good employer should accommodate you, however morality isn't fixed so it shouldn't come into play.

What I mean by that is - laws exist, are clear (for the most part) and they apply to everyone.
Morals vary from person to person, country to country and culture to culture.  If a company were to give leeway on a morality issue, where do they stop?

If an engineer declines a project based on morality, and his/her boss disagrees, who's right?  What rules should apply?  I see so much grey area there that quite frankly, it's better to simply not follow morals, but follow law only.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Hi Tick,

"ethics define acceptable behavior". Okay. What is "acceptable behavior"?

Professional ethics is a different thing. In my case, my association has codified "professional ethics". I can read it, and it spells out what my association has deem to be ethical.

If you read my posting, I kept the two separate - professionalism, and ethics, as two different things.

Dave's OP asked us to "Deconstruct the above in terms of morality, ethical behavior, and professionalism." I took this to mean morality, ethics and professionalism as separate entities, and not the "professional ethics" as part of the engineering association's codified ethics.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

"I see so much grey area there that quite frankly, it's better to simply not follow morals, but follow law only."

That kind of thinking seems to have several shortcomings.

For one thing, the original post concerns some circumstances that just happen to fall into a very gray area of law- that is, pornography.  It is very difficult to forecast if this will be a law-abiding business, and that would actually depend on the location, the time, and the exact nature of what they produce.

Secondly, the law is invariably applied after-the-fact.  The fact that someone isn't currently in prison or on trial or under indictment is certainly no guarantee that their activities are legal.  For that matter, if they are NEVER charged with any illegal activity, that doesn't imply their actions are legal, either.  (Jack the Ripper was never charged with a crime, was he?)

Thirdly, this idea seems to lower standards to the lowest possible level.  I think most people, including most engineers, expect something better out of the engineering profession.  If you're sitting there thinking "I'll lie to this next guy since it's not actually illegal to do so", that just seems a poor way to carry on one's business or personal life.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

I don't know about morality, ethics and the rest, but in the real world, an engineer balances his personal needs against the needs of the company and makes every effort to support the company in critical situations. Working 5 minutes or a few hours over once in awhile shouldn't be an obstacle as long as there are no personal circumstances that prevent it.

The transportation issue certainly could be one of those circumstances.  But even in that case, the engineer should have identified it to the project manager in private at some time earlier in the day, rather than standing up and announcing he was leaving.  Then perhaps the project manager can pace the meeting to speed up or to cover some key items.  Or perhaps the project manager will offer to drive the engineer home afterwards in the PM's car.  Either way, the PM has a lot more options and it's only common courtesy for the engineer to communicate the situation earlier.

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RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

Greg - is it morality, ethics or professionalismthat inhibits you from working on churches?

=====================================
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RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

[...] "Thirdly, this idea seems to lower standards to the lowest possible level.  I think most people, including most engineers, expect something better out of the engineering profession.  If you're sitting there thinking "I'll lie to this next guy since it's not actually illegal to do so", that just seems a poor way to carry on one's business or personal life."

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply just being lawful allows for unethical behavior. Quite honestly, I separate morality from ethical behavior.  

Morality has too many religious implications whereas ethics (to me) doesn't.  Ethical means acting in a honest manner, doing something in someone else's best interest, not your own.

RE: A Moral/Ethical/Professional Game

I think I know this Client Z.  When Chapter 17, Special Inspections first came to North Carolina about 4 years ago with the unification of codes under IBC, the bldg officials were still learning what to enforce or apply.  Anyway, a  strip club that shares the bldg with an independent adult retail store located down the street from a preschool was doing some architectural and structural remodeling about this time.  The local bldg authorities put these people through the ringer requiring SI work on every little thing done.  This was just one of the ways they flexed their muscles on that project.

The moral of the story is... next time a big hurricane comes through, you'll know where to find me.  

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