×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Stamp Removal
2

Stamp Removal

Stamp Removal

(OP)
Is an engineer allowed to remove his stamp on an existing project even though they have been payed for it?

For example if Engineer A works for Firm B, and they are under contract.  Engineer A asks the EIT's to do the design it, after which Engineer A checks it and stamps it.  Engineer A then quits Firm B.  Firm B then replaces Engineer A with Engineer C.  Engineer A requests that his stamp be removed and that Firm B cannot use the design, though most of the work was done by EITs in Firm B,the contract is with Firm B, and Firm B payed Engineer A for his work.  Is the work the property of Engineer A or Firm B?    

RE: Stamp Removal

Firm B owns the design.  They can not change what Eng A did, but they can keep using past plans previously stamped.  Eng A took responsible charge - or as PA, USA calls it "direct control" - when he/she sealed the EITs' work.  I do it all the time.

Signature under construction, sorry about the mess - Steve

RE: Stamp Removal

(OP)
What makes the work belong to Firm B?  Is it the fact that Engineer A was monitarily compensated for the work?  I haven't read the laws, rules and regulations of that particular state, so you'll have to forgive me for my ignorace on the matter.     

RE: Stamp Removal

2
Why remove your stamp?  Just for spite?  Surely you did not stamp something that was not worthy of your stamp.

RE: Stamp Removal

Its in my contract that my employer owns all my work and all copyrights and so on that may be attached to my work.

As long as the design that you approved and stamped is not changed, I can't imagine any circumstances where you would want your stamp removed. If the EITs change the design, Engineer C should stamp their new work but that doesn't seem like reason to take Engineer A's stamp off the superseded design.

RE: Stamp Removal

What's done is done, and the stamp should remain on that drawing.  If it needs revisions, or is to be used in some way not previously anticipated, then it should be redone and stamped by the (new) responsible party.  If the original engineer realizes there's some problem with it, he should notify the company of that problem.

RE: Stamp Removal

What is different now other than Engineer A no longer works there? (Whether he got paid or not is irrelavent) Is Engineer A upset about parting ways? Does Engineer A think he will get calls all day and all night about the project that his new place of employment may not like?

It seems reasonable for Engineer A to ask that someone within the firm take over the project and become EOR if there is substantial work left to be done or changes to be made.  But to ask that his stamp be removed from former work because he doesn't work there anymore sounds like trying to get out of responsibility.

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: Stamp Removal

I'm in the same boat as kchayfie.  I don't work in field where copywrites or patents come into play, but my contract definitely says my firm owns everything I design while there.

Same deal at the firm before that, and the three before that one.

Signature under construction, sorry about the mess - Steve

RE: Stamp Removal

What would the engineer say if the firm demanded any and all salary and other monies payed to the engineer to be returned.

A drawing with no stamp in many industries is just a piece of paper with a bunch of lines on it.  Removing the stamp could make the drawings worthless and I would never pay someone to not do work for me.

No work or drawings, no money.

Pretty simple equation.

RE: Stamp Removal

suppose your are doing your own building, which you pay the big $$bucks$$ for a professional engineer to do the design. After a while, this engineer claims his/her drawings so he can remove his/her stamp. Would allow him/her? I don't think so..
Regards

RE: Stamp Removal

IAAWVU05
You should keep a copy of the drawings you stamped.  They can change your design.  
The way that should be done is the next engineer clouds the changes he/she made and stamps the drawing with a note that says " this stamp for changes on Rev 1 only" or words to that effect.
However they could just change something on the drawing or  verbally OK a change in construction  or document it on a RFI.  Either way there could be a change you don't know about. It could be trival or something serious.
I would demand a set of record or as-built drawings as well. They should be willing to give those to you.  There may be some other drawings or vendor submittals you are entitled to as well.  Your stamp is on the drawings and your the one of the ones whom the lawyers would come after.
Your entitled to protect yourself.

RE: Stamp Removal

(OP)
This situation arose at work, I am just the EIT in this story (I have about 2-1/2 more years of tutelage to go).  From what I see, Engineer A left and a serious bridge was burned between Engineer A and Firm B (lawyers and everything).  I had a choice to either go with Engineer A or with Firm B.  I chose Firm B because I feel that Engineer A didn't take ethics seriously, and never double checked over my design (I handed the drawings over, and Engineer A just stamps and signs without looking over anything).  I am frustrated with the situation because if Engineer A can pull their stamp, it would leave me in a situation where I have to redo all of the drawings on an almost finished project, and inform Engineer C of the project status.

RE: Stamp Removal

IAAWVU05:
Do not worry, Eng A is hosed big-time, you are totally clear.  An EIT is supposed to do legwork, including calculations.  An EIT is, by definition "In Training".  

Signature under construction, sorry about the mess - Steve

RE: Stamp Removal

Engineer A can "pull" the stamp if they want - to do so would probably mean sending a letter to the firm B and to the city or governing jurisdiction stating that they no longer wish to stand behind the design.

But....

This would then open up Engineer A to legal proceedings as the drawings then become worthless to the firm B who already paid for them via Engineer A's salary (per JamesBarlow comments above).

It's not that the drawings and stamp "belong" to the firm.  The drawings and stamp are simply instruments of service and Engineer A willingly took a salary to provide that service.  

By "pulling stamp" Engineer A is effectively stealing the salary that was paid.

RE: Stamp Removal

It is rare that I will advise someone specifically which side to take and what actions to take.

Stay with "Firm B".  Don't worry about "Engineer A".  Let "Firm B" worry about "Engineer A".

If you are asked to redo your work, be a good soldier and do it.  This won't be the first time your work is lost or undone.  Accept it.

Remember that you are not responsible for Enginer A's actions.  If anything, he was responsible for yours on behalf of Firm B.  Firm B signs your paychecks.  It is Firm B's responsbility to see that you are properly managed and trained.

RE: Stamp Removal

The seal should remain intact and no revisions permitted to the document without the removal of said seal... and a letter to Firm B to this effect... I'm not so sure about any fabrication or construction review or QA.  Firm B should still be liable for any insurance claims.  You might ask Firm B for some assurance on this...

Dik

RE: Stamp Removal

A stamp should only be pulled if there is a deficiency in the design that was discovered later, that no one wishes to address. It should not be pulled because of a business disagreement that has nothing to do the quality of the design. Pulling a stamp arbitarily would probably get you in trouble, both in court and in front of the state licensing board.

RE: Stamp Removal

Under most contracts (employment, consulting, etc.), the work belongs to who pays for it - afterall, that is the reasone why we work.

To pull a stamp, that is usually reserved for mistakes discovered after the fact, not employment and bridge burning issues.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Stamp Removal

Verify with the authority having jurisdiction whether they have a form for change in delegation of responsibility in which you specify the effective date of the transfer of responsibility.

Each jurisdiction may have different rules but generally, if engineer A stamped a set of drawings that has been permitted by AHJ, engineer A's stamp "remains" with the plans.  Engineer B, one the responsibility is delegated to, is responsible for all subsequent work involving modifications to the original permit set.

If the delegation is made prior to permit, engineer B shall review all previous design done under engineer A and put his stamp.  Engineer A is not "recorded" as the engineer of record by the AHJ.

The above apply to standard AEC projects involving buildings/public works.  I would check with the AHJ on how to proceed.

RE: Stamp Removal

(OP)
I just checked with the AHJ.  Since it is a public document, Engineer A cannot legally pull stamp, which brings up another question.  I did the design, and Engineer A stamped without looking over.  If a design flaw occurs, can Engineer A hold me responsible? Just a little concerned about this.

  

RE: Stamp Removal

"I just checked with the AHJ.  Since it is a public document, Engineer A cannot legally pull stamp."
Sounds wrong to me.  AHJs deal with how the design and construction comply with applicable codes.  City building departments may or may not require stamps for certain projects.  Most places I have worked if I went to the city and wanted to pull a stamp they would let me if I had a good reason.  Lots of things get built without a stamp.
There are reasons to pull a stamp.  As noted above just being POed at your previous employer is not a good one.

Changes I have heard of that would cause me to pull a stamp were 1.) In a "value engineering" move the general contractor changed the HVAC system.  that changed the electrical load.  2.) The owners of a building changed the purpose from something like a group home to "Assisted Living" facility.  The change didn't change walls etc. but it does require a little more detail in the electrical system.  
More than once I have told people wanting me to sign off on a "Value Engineering" proposal to get their own engineer to sign off on it.  Value engineering is OK if that's what it is but a lot of time it's a cover for buying cheaper, smaller equipment or doing less.

RE: Stamp Removal

He can hold you responsible in his own mind, but not in the eyes of the court.  He was the one in charge.

RE: Stamp Removal

TDAA... I'm not so sure... if someone technical does work and an engineer seals that work, they can still be held liable in a court of law as well as the engineer and the company...

Dik

RE: Stamp Removal

TDAA is correct.  A technician working for a firm is not legally liable.

RE: Stamp Removal

dik, your country may have a different view on this vs. the US.  Don't know for sure...but in the US the techs don't ever (that I'm aware of) get sucked into lawsuits.

RE: Stamp Removal

I believe that is the entire reason for requiring a PE stamp on a drawing, so that there is a person taking responsible charge of the work and certifying that the information is correct. If a product you buy does not live up to the claims on the box, do you go after the company that printed the boxes  or the company that makes the product?  

David

RE: Stamp Removal

JAE:  not normally, didn't want to give the impression that techs are generally on the firing line...techs don't often get drawn into this, but you might be surprised if you check with your legal consultant... they can be exposed... in many of the states...

almost anyone can be a target... either individually or jointly...

Dik

RE: Stamp Removal

I quit a job and discovered the company had my stamp on revisions I'd never seen (through contacts at plan check and the local copy house).  Took an ugly wrangle to get my name off.  Seems to me that unless the job is built the EOR can still be easily replaced and it's not fair to ask the old EOR to be responsible for a changing set of plans he can't review.

RE: Stamp Removal

I also assumed that the tech / EIT did not do something dihonest. But when it come to being sure the work is complete and accurate, it is on the PE.

RE: Stamp Removal

(OP)
Let me clear things up.  The work was honest.  It was my first time going through what seemed like a library of codes and standards of ASME and others.  I checked every specification, thought about the wording of the codes, and ran every calculation through at least twice (even had the other EITs check my work).  My worry is there may have been something I missed and therefore the design is somehow flawed.  If the flaw is exposed, can the engineer that stamped it hold me responsible in front of a court of law even though he did not check my work as an EIT?  

RE: Stamp Removal

I'm not in the US so you can't take my word as gospel, but from what I understand of the rules of stamping designs and supervising engineers and so on, unless you took engineer A's stamp and used it on your design without his knowledge, you are not at fault. If Enigneer A tries to pin the blame on you in court, it will highlight his failure to adequately supervise the EITs working for him and his willingness for plan-stamping which I understand is a big breach of ethics. If he succeeds in pulling his stamp and another PE seals the design, that guy is responsible for checking the work you have done and ensuring that you haven't missed anything. Again, he'll be highlighting his own failure to supervise if he tries to pin it on you.

My understanding of how the US PE system works at any rate.

RE: Stamp Removal

The EIT that checked (or really half-checked) the shop drawings of the Hyatt Regency walkways, which collapsed, was not a part of the lawsuits or was not held liable as far as I understand it.  The focus was all on the PE engineer of record.

RE: Stamp Removal

Likely because he was not a financial target... next time you're talking to your local legal dude... you might enquire.

Dik

RE: Stamp Removal

Dik
Your right. If the teck/EIT won the lottery or inherited a lot of money he would go to the top of the list.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources