×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Number of women in engineering
7

Number of women in engineering

Number of women in engineering

(OP)
Hello, just wondering what your take is on this-Why   is only a small percent of engineers made up of women?
I am writing an article for our PE newsletter. From my viewpoint here, in Canada, as a 1980 mech eng. graduate (female), it looks like that the national average  on numbers of women - as percent of total undergraduates- is  decreasing  since 2000. Now it is less than 20%. Less than  10% registered engineers in Canada are women. I would assume figures for USA may be a bit better. What are the barriers for women or the discouraging aspects of the profession? I would have hoped that with passing years there would be more women in the field, but not so. The profession has been good to me and my female colleagues from university and work.

Thank you.

Heather in NWT Canada
 

RE: Number of women in engineering

I went to college in Canada and there was maybe 10-15% of my graduating class were women, that was gaduating in 2001. Now in working in oil and Gas and in the US maybe 10-15% of the engineers I meet are women.  I have only met 5 female enigneers here since I started working in Engineering, one moved out of Field Engineering into Sales to have a baby and one is moving positions to have a baby right now, since the engineering role she is in requires a lot of travel, the later one is a PE, but the rest are not and are not persuing a PE to my knowlege.

 I don't know why there are not more Women in engineering, but these are the stats from my point of view.

RE: Number of women in engineering

2
I read an interesting paper about this subject not too long ago, and found a copy of the paper at the link below:

http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/EKNU.html

The "Barriers to Entry" section about a fifth of the way down on the webpage is probably the most relevant to this discussion.

Reidh

RE: Number of women in engineering

In the UK, not sure if it's of interest, in my Aero course only about 10% were female.  This was late 90s.

In aerospace defence in UK I met fairly few women engineers, probably less than 10%.  That said the field I was in was fairly small and a lot of the people in it were ex armed forces which again, tended to be mostly male.

Where I currently work in the US there are a few more women but not by much.  There seem to be more in the software side than in electrical or mechanical engineering.  Also a lot of them here may be scientists rather than engineers as such, I'm not totally sure though.

RE: Number of women in engineering

My daughter gratuated about three years ago as an aerospace engineer.  Only about 10% of her class were female.   

She spoke often of her non-engineering courses, where the other females just couldn't believe that my daughter would want to work in such a male dominated field.

Since graduation, the ratio has been about the same.

At my company (consulting engineering), only about 5% of the technical workforce are female, and most (three) work for me!

Part of the reason, I suppose, was mentioned above by kenat,  that is some engineering fields are heavily military oriented, and have a large number of ex military and government folks, both of which also tend to be male dominated.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Women are too smart to stay in engineering.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Number of women in engineering

Females were a predictably small percentage of my classmates in Civil, fewer still that focused on Structural.  However, my first job was working for a female sole proprietor.  I left that job for one where I briefly worked under a female, who later went on to start her own firm.  Now, at my current job, my department manager is a female.  One of our EITs is female, and we have a female student intern working for us.  I guess that makes us approximately 30% female in the department, not counting support staff.  So while the industry as a whole is male-dominated, my limited experience has seen an inordinately large number of women.  I admire all of them for braving the male-dominated field, not so much in engineering, but in having to deal with good-ol' boy contractors.

RE: Number of women in engineering

2
The answer to this question is not to be found in college or the workplace.  

It's to be found in the toy aisle at Walmart.  My second son, when he was younger, would always head to the toy section, but shunned the "pink" aisle, since that was for "girls."

The bottom line is that in the 40 years since bra burning began, girls and boys still are playing with different toys.  Girls are getting more into video and portable gaming, but only with "their" games.  

Until all kids play the same games equally, I wouldn't expect there to be much change in the workplace demographics.

TTFN

Eng-Tips Policies FAQ731-376


RE: Number of women in engineering

This is so simple....  Women are graceful, interesting, and fun.  Engineers are awkward, boring, and dull.

I'm mostly just joking.  However, I do think there is some truth to the fact above.  Most of the women who I've known in engineering have moved on to better paying jobs outside of technical engineering (mostly to sales)  And who can blame them when considering pay?

I was recently at a conference.  Guess which vendors I remember the most?  The vendors with the geeky guy "software/application engineer type" wearing wrinkled pants and a worn out knit shirt sporting sweaty armpits who is capable of telling you everything already contained within the operations manual?  Or the vendor with the super model gal dressed to kill doing a sales pitch?  Both probably have the same degree...  Who is more profitable to their respective company?  

RE: Number of women in engineering

Women are too smart to stay in engineering.
---------------
Mike, thumbsup2 !

I always joke that a female engineer is a mistake of educational system. But in fact it is only a joke of course. According to me the point of IRstuff is very good. Roles in the society dictate our choice of profession. How many male kindergarten nurses have you seen? I cannot remember even one.
I have worked with several female engineers and most of them were good or very good. But only one of them was really interested in the profession. Normally they have a  scope of personal interests, hobbies, etc. different from engineering. Also their family obligations are higher than ours. Never mind how much we want to help them in housework - it remains only help.
The opposite for the men - profession is our game, and accept we this or not, often it is more important for us than everything other. Because of that men engineers spent more time and efforts for continuous increasing of professional skills. Sorry girls, but that is the life!

There are also some small things which don't encourage women to go into engineering. Field engineers are very seldom female. For men it is easier to live long time far from the home, in worse living conditions, to work in dirty environment. In some countries (Middle East, Africa, from my experience) female engineers simply are not taken seriously.

According to me female engineers are good for design work. They are usually more precise than most of male engineers. Especially in my field - control and relay protection systems - in my country the male/female ratio is about 50/50. In primary connection design probably it is 70/30 or more, but still there are lot of female designers. Female field engineers are rare, not more than 5-10%.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

RE: Number of women in engineering

I am sure this may start a heated debate, but I believe that the "toy aisle effect" is overstated.  I think that there are intrinsic differences that cause more men to gravitate towards the engineering field, and women to gravitate towards other fields.

Before I continue, I would also like to make perfectly clear that I am in no way putting down either gender, but I believe there are differences that need to be discussed.

On a similar topic, males that work in pre-schools are few and far between.  Is this because they didn't play with dolls growing up, or because females (on average, of course there will be exceptions) are usually the primary nurturers for our children.  So possibly the "toy aisle effect" is just that, an effect and not a cause.  

My wife works at a day care, and they accept children starting at 18 months of age.  By the age of two, she has noted that more boys are playing with blocks and legos during their free time, while the girls often carry around teddy bears or dolls while they do their daily activities.  The argument can be made that the parents may push their children one way or the other (such as not buying their son dolls or their daughter legos), but in a preschool where any toy can be played with by anybody who want to, the gender bias of various toys is indisputable.   

I'm sure there are many other influences as to why there aren't more women in engineering, but I think it would be erroneous to dismiss the biological differences as we discuss other reasons.

I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone, it was not the purpose of my post.

Reidh

RE: Number of women in engineering

My daughter has done plenty of playing with Legos, but doesn't seem to have any interest in engineering, for what that is worth.  Then again, the same is true of my son.

RE: Number of women in engineering

JStephen (and others),

I've never understood why we have all bought into the myth that Lego (or any other toy) creates a mindset that is somehow a pointer to the child having an engineering leaning. If Lego was that powerful it would be the mainstay of all engineering courses and I certainly didn't have to take Lego101. I do remember things like Engineering Matematics 403 however turning out to be pretty useful

Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK
 

RE: Number of women in engineering

prohammy,

You obviously didn't attend Cerro Coso college in Ridgecrest CA, they actually do have something like lego 101!  I think it's more about using the mindstorm robots but none the less I wish I could have taken that class, even at High School.

I'm pretty sure I've seen mention of studies where even when left to their own devices young children tended toward 'gender specific' toys in the expected direction.  Now of course whether this is them copying what they see around them etc is a different matter.

I suppose part of it is the nature V nurture debate which I doubt any of us will solve here!

Taking it a step further back than Engineering at university I seem to recall the following in my last couple of years at university.  My math class for 'Pure' math was about pretty even, slightly more boys than girls but not by much maybe 60/40 ish.  My math class for 'mechanics' was a bit more skewed, maybe 65/35 perhaps 70/30.  Physics was mostly guys, perhaps 75/15 and Design Technology (kind of high school Engineering/shop with math) had only 2 girls out of around 20, so 90/10.  

Given that math & physics are pre-requisits for most Engineering programs it seems that maybe the process of there being less women in Engineering starts before university.  Perhaps 'in the cradle' as with the toy aisle arguement or perhaps before that, maybe in the DNA.

One slightly off the wall idea, I've heard talk that a lot of engineers are on the autistic side of the 'autistic spectrum' with aspergers syndrome etc.  Is there any link between autism and sex?

RE: Number of women in engineering

KENAT:  Was your arithmetic class also skewed 75/15?  winky smile

RE: Number of women in engineering

Apparantly, can I play the dyslexic card?  Make it 85/15.  Or there was that one weird student so maybe 75/15/10 is more like it.winky smile

RE: Number of women in engineering

... just pulling your leg, it was a bit exposed.

My daughter has been exposed to the whole spectrum of traditional male and female toys with no intended pushing in any direction.  She has settled firmly on the dolls and home-roll-playing side.  Bummer!  Still it's her life.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Its not just legos and such that can point a kid toward engineering.  I was hugely into sewing my own clothes as a kid.  It was only after becoming an engineer that I realized that a sewing pattern was essentially a set of plans, not a whole lot different than plans for building.  A sewing pattern tells you how to make a 3-d object from 2-d (the fabric) and 1-d (the thread) materials and, if they are any good, patterns don't leave anything out.  Sewing was just as good a preparation for engineering as any typical boy things like building models or rockets.    
It seems that fewer girls and boys are into building things - be it clothes or cars.  Hopefully that will change.
As previous posters pointed out - there are a number of factors leading to fewer women in engineering.  Too bad - its a great career.

RE: Number of women in engineering

graybeach, my mum was keen on sewing and I partook on occasion.  I never thought of it that way but maybe you’re right.  

Certainly although my son plays with Lego he only seems able to follow the instructions.  He never just builds something from the blocks.  I always built more either from my imagination or based on pictures in books etc. than to the set plans in the kits.

Maybe it’s not so much having the Lego/blocks/mechano/knex… but how you use them.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I guess we are the exception to the rule - maybe we're skewing all the results for the rest of you...

Since August last year, we've hired 5 chemical engineering graduates. 4 female, 1 male. I think the mechanical engineering department took on 2 male graduates but that still puts the balance towards the women.

It might just be our industry though - there are a lot of female process engineers working in water treatment in the UK.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Kenat has a point - it is how you use them.  A girl who plays with dolls, but sews clothes for them, might be a budding engineer.  But maybe girls who like to sew get steered toward careers in fashion design or interior decorating rather then engineering.  Probably they would have liked engineering, and would have enjoyed higher pay.

RE: Number of women in engineering

As one of four females in a mechanical engineering program of about 100, I'd definitely say women just aren't drawn to that discipline. Why? I don't know, other than my own reasons. I graduated ranked 3rd, so apparently women can do it. And interestingly enough, there are many more female engineers in the ME program at my university now, as they've really been building up their biomechanics program. Why are women drawn to human engineering but not automotive? It's interesting. . .the equations are the same either way : )

My experience growing up definitely pushed me towards engineering.  NOt so much toys. As a kid, I had a healthy mix of male/female toys. I do believe I was drawn to the girls toys more. I liked legos and lincoln logs, but I wasn't too interested in guns or remote controlled cars. I think I got into engineering because of how I was tracked in school. As we progress through school, it becomes apparent that some kids are more gifted than others. . .some in the English/Social Studies type stuff, some in the math/science stuff, some in both. Usually, standardized test scores are used to to separate the smarties and the regular kids. The smart kids end up taking all the advanced math and science, at least until they can't hack it anymore. I'd say my jr. high algebra class was about 50/50, but by senior calculus, it was probably more 75/25 since it wasn't required to graduate. I think that tracking kids this way is a huge disservice because it really discourages kids from being open to new challenges. I honestly don't think that as many women as men want to be engineers, but I think some girls and boys are turned off the career path because someone tells them when they're 12 that it's too difficult. Plus, teachers and guidance counselors don't really know much about the real career world, and a lot of parents don't know beyond their own experiences either. Girls could be more interested in engineering if the counselors didn't tell them that engineers design bridges and motors. Some crunchy granola cheerleader airhead might be interested in being an environmental engineer, or a band dork might be a good acoustical engineer, a biology major could be a bio-engineer instead. We don't do a good enough job of telling kids about the possibilities out there, girls OR boys, and because of that we have too many lawyers and mortgage brokers!

RE: Number of women in engineering

reidh,

I wish I had more time to respond, but I must leave the comfort of the office very soon to  inspect and crawl around a building undergoing destructive testing in the remote Central Valley of California.  It is a horrible, dirty job in a place that is so remote you have to drive 30 miles away to get to a hardware store.  I cannot beg one male in our office to switch over from the purely design work into the field because of these conditions.

As a female working in an engineering field (I’m actually a licensed architect), I agree with you that there are intrinsic differences between little girls and boys.  Why do I do this stuff then?  I wish I knew.  I played with all kinds of toys, but had a habit of pulling the heads off of dolls to find out what was inside.  I have very good spacial cognition, I can think on my feet, sketch fairly well standing up, with the wind blowing my paper around while carrying on a conversation with another consultant about his recent marriage to a paralegal.  And I never get lost going from one site to the next.  I don’t think I got this from playing with my brother’s Tonka Trucks.  My feeling is that it is hardwired.

I stayed away from a purely design field because I found the office environment too stifling, and never thought I had the natural interest to be the best engineer.

I am in this line of work because my father, an engineer with a dual degree, electrical and petroleum, refused to pay for my college if I majored in some subject like art or languages (two of my choices at the time).  Turns out architecture was a good choice, but I would not have been here without his influence.  Once the technical die was set, it was my own interests that shaped my career.  I could have gone the marketing route, but didn’t.  

It is a very complex question, with a complex answer.  I can only provide what my own limited experience has been. BTW, here’s a photo of me to prove I really do the nasty jobs, and sometimes have fun with it.


"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Number of women in engineering

A data point to add to the discussion:

My three daughters are not pushed either way when it comes to toys.  They have Lego blocks to play with and I help them build towers and bridges sometimes.  What do they build when they play on their own?  Animals, flowers, telephones to play with, etc.  I have to say I'm leaning towards casseopeia's suggestion that at least some of it is hard-wired.

If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Quote:

If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent.

If you're talking about what I put about autism it wasn't on the internet.  I think it was in a news paper or magazine and I've had conversations with people who know a little more about it than me and they've backed it up.  I'm not saying I'm convinced I'm just throwing it out there.

RE: Number of women in engineering

"My three daughters are not pushed either way when it comes to toys.  They have Lego blocks to play with and I help them build towers and bridges sometimes.  What do they build when they play on their own?  Animals, flowers, telephones to play with, etc.  I have to say I'm leaning towards casseopeia's suggestion that at least some of it is hard-wired. "

Add to that my 9 y.o. and 2 y.o. boys who turn any stick, paper towel tube or piece of cardboard into a gun. I have never seen a girl playing by herself pretend to shoot imaginary bad guys, but the boys do it all the time. Conversely, my 2 y.o. also sometimes puts baby diapers on stuffed animals and pretends to burp them and turns any bag into his "purse". . .BUT, his purse holds tools, rocks, and leaves, not makeup and polly pockets.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I wasn't necessarily implying that toys make the person, but simply, that gender differences occur at absurdly early ages, despite our best efforts.  Even the dreaded purple T-rex does it.  There was a show where they were talking about jobs they could do when they grew up.  Guess what, girls got the teacher and nurse jobs, while the boys were firemen, etc., even a chef.

Additionally, it would seem to be absurdly difficult to separate nature vs. nurture at this point in time, since the environmental factors are so pervasive.  There's indeed a conspiracy to keep women in the "their place," but it's not organized, per se, it's just the way everyone has been raised and exposed to the cultural environment.

Only when there is no "pink" aisle could we expect to get a crop of children that are relatively unbiased with regard to gender roles.  Only then can the question of nature be clearly resolved.

TTFN

Eng-Tips Policies FAQ731-376


RE: Number of women in engineering

Okay, I usually don't respond to this debate, but I have to get sucked into the toy discussion.
I stuck to the pink aisle in the toy store.
However, when the Barbie car broke, I just re-wired it.  Easy to do.  
Probably should have grabbed some Legos.

ejc

RE: Number of women in engineering

So I am guessing the Barbie's car was an MG if it needed a new wiring job?  



Reidh



RE: Number of women in engineering

(OP)
Thank you all very much for your posts! I was interested in the "toy aisle" comments-I had attempted to encourage my nieces and nephews into "gender-neutral games" and toys, with no effect whatsoever. And sewing, yes of course, that is definitely a construction and engineering process! But I do find it strange that despite engineering being an interesting and portable career, far less a great stepping stone to sales and marketing, management, law or other fields, women are still at about 10% of the engineering workforce, with some variation-more in some fields (chemical) and less in mechanical.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Actually, not that I want to get into the car thing; I think it was a Corvette.

As far as why there aren’t more women engineers – I agree with a previous poster when they said “teachers and guidance counselors don't really know much about the real career world, and a lot of parents don't know beyond their own experiences either. Girls could be more interested in engineering if the counselors didn't tell them that engineers design bridges and motors.”  

I still can’t believe I’m in engineering. All I knew was I really liked math, and I intuitively understood Physics.  That got me into the program at college, and I continued to enjoy the work.  
 I didn’t really know the depth of what an engineer could do until mid-college.  Growing up in Michigan, I knew engineers designed stuff – mostly cars.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Well, for the engineers in my family, the percentage is 25% female – 33% if you count the fact that my father retired.

Another item to note, my wife and I have noticed a trend (of people we know) that women are going to college, starting a career, and then becoming stay at home mothers.  This is what my wife has done, although she is not in the engineering field.  I believe the stay at home trend is becoming more popular with the latch key kids of the baby boomers.  This will likely see the decrease of women in the workforce  as a whole.

RE: Number of women in engineering

My sister left engineering to raise a family.  She couldn't return to it now because of the variety she enjoys in life now.

I could write a book on this subject.  I have seen a lot in my career, both from observation and personal experience.

The women I know that have left the field entirely or simply left corporate America did so because of very negative treatment.

It happens to men, too.  One man was told early in his career, at the urinal no less, that he had gone as high as possible with that company.

RE: Number of women in engineering

As a woman engineer who's just starting out, I have to agree with the people who say that women stay away from engineering simply because there isn't enough information on what engineering is. That's why most mathematically inclined women end up studying physics, maths, or at least architecture, not engineering.

Toy theory is nice, but I see very few girls playing to be public toilet cleaners, yet in my country that's a female-predominated job.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Alright, here’s a story. . .this just happened 10 minutes ago and is the perfect example of why women might avoid engineering. . .we don’t enjoy dealing with people like my new co-worker.

A new engineer in our office just started. He is older (50-60??) and from another country originally. I’d say you could peg me at around 30 and I’m definitely a white American woman.

Our first conversation involved the general summary of what you know/what I know/where we worked/where I worked, etc. I mentioned that I worked at company X in the past, and he mentioned that his daughter also worked there around the same time period, only in marketing. He proceeded to tell me how she then left that company, got her MBA, then worked at 3 other companies and how she’s rocketing up the corporate ladder. He then (after 10 minutes of knowing each other) proceeded to tell me that I needed to get an MBA and get into management and that engineering was no place for a lady. Ladies do not want to sit at a computer and pay attention to so many details. I informed him that I had an MBA and I briefly left engineering to work on the business side and returned recently because I prefer engineering. He then said it all depended on character.  Then, he outlined all the finer points of the analysis program he used at his last job and talked about everything you need to perform an analysis, as if I didn’t already know how to do my job.  

On one hand, I could take the comments as fatherly advice of someone has been in a very cyclical industry for a long time telling me that I deserve a career that treats people better. . .but I really felt that he was saying women weren’t cut out to be engineers because we're just not wired for that kind of thinking.

Fortunately I work with lots of other men of all ages and races who think I'm quite competent as an engineer, but if everyone shared this new guy's attitude, it might cause me to start thinking about a new career field. . .or at least a new company!

RE: Number of women in engineering

I think the schools/career guidance is a very valid point. I picked engineering because it seemed like something related to maths and physics and seemed like it pointed towards a career at the end of the degree course. My careers office had no more useful information than that so it wasn't exactly an enlightened choice.

I've spent this week working with a couple of 17-year-olds who are off school and looking for work experience to put on a CV (incidentally, one girl and one boy). It was clear that neither had any clue what engineering involves. Both have gone away totally enthusiastic about it as a career path and planning to come back for paid work here in the summer. (although I think its the pay rather than the experience that enthuses them more!).

If we could educate the physics teachers we could interest a lot more girls (and boys)...

RE: Number of women in engineering

i wish there were more women engineers.  my ex got her degree in electrical engineering.

RE: Number of women in engineering

As a male engineer with a wife in early childhood development and we have 5 kids...

Genetics, the way the brain is wired or what is different because of chomososes simple fine.  You can make all the fuss about diversity and chavenism, but its just the facts.  If we didn't have this difference the human race would have dropped off the face of the earth about 25,000 years ago or evolved into creatures that dropped hudreds of off spring each year apiece to let them scurry and survive the best they could.

Just watch a 12 year old boy and girl pick up a baby, the girl will hold it on here hip, the boy like a sack of potatoes, why if they have never seen a baby does that work.  To many other examples here.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I have really enjoyed reading Dads talk about thier daughters and vice versa on this posting. My dad is an engineer. From an early age I leaned heavily towards the arts... but my dad insisted that I take the highest level of math and science I could for all four  years of highschool. His arguement was that it would give me more options. I think I learned analytical thinking by just talking to my dad... we talked about things like the best way to mount a sculpture I was working on... and how to change the brakes on the 1980 chevy suburban my brother and I shared.

I still have my artsy side... and I think it has served me well as an engineer.

RE: Number of women in engineering

There's obviously a biological difference because of testoterone and estrogen balances, BUT, until you can raise a large enough sample of boys and girls with ZERO gender biases, the biological differences cannot be readily sorted out.

I don't think that anyone can claim with scientific rigor that the biological differences account for the dearth of women in engineering.  

TTFN

Eng-Tips Policies FAQ731-376


RE: Number of women in engineering

... I just picked my daughter up from her grandparents following a weeks' holiday.  She was so excited to show me the guns she'd made from Lego.  So maybe it's not all dolls and roll playing after all.

RE: Number of women in engineering

IRstuff, you cannot get to ZERO biases, thats the point.  The girls still go to the pink isle and the boys to the trucks.  Even GI Joe didn't sell as well as Barbie.  It's more than hormones too.  

RE: Number of women in engineering

I tend to agree with some posts above.  It starts early on in life.  But I think high school (heck, even our society in general is the culprit).  There was never any push towards engineering in my high school.  We must be a really small percentage of the population.  

I don't think anyone really knows what engineering is. (even myself as an engineer) What is engineering?  A bunch of nerds hiding in their cubicles all day crunching numbers?  That is the picture I am sure most high schools paint.  All the guys want to go into somethign related to sports and the woman I haven't got a clue.  Doctor's, nurses, teachers?  Never once did I ever hear engineering.

There are a few woman in my department.  This is the first company I have worked for that has woman engineers.  

RE: Number of women in engineering

(OP)
It sounds as if career counselors are failing to mention the wonderful world of engineering to young women...certainly it was never mentioned to me, but that was a number of years ago. None of my high school girlfriends went into engineering, but then few men did either. I was good in math and physics and thought engineering sounded like a fun (HA!) and interesting way to use those subjects.  My family was definitely arts-oriented-professors and teachers-with no engineers in sight.

One comment made in certain posts was that it is hard to get back into the field after "time out" -whether for family or other reasons. Not necessarily so; if you keep up with your subject and with your colleagues,continue networking,researching,  attending conferences etc, it should not be too hard to get back in. This, speaking from my own experience and that of some of my friends.

RE: Number of women in engineering

In the UK at the time I was in my last 2 years of 'high school' they were trying to get women into engineering.

They even had special scholarships etc to encourage it.

To the best of my knowledge none of the girls in my math &/or physics classes in school ended up studying Engineering at university.

Medical doctors, Physics & if I recall Mathematics were the courses they chose.

Maybe Doctoring is a possible comparison, 50 years ago I understan Medicine (as in Doctors) was male dominated.  Now I believe it's close to 50/50 in med school with women ahead in some places.

Of course if there is some inherent ‘genetic’ factor relevant to Engineering but not Medicine then it’s unlikely to change.  

However, perhaps if it’s more due to traditional gender roles then it will change, but I wont hold my breath.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Here is an observation.  The people in my school were in two catagories or should I say there were two nodes with some blurry arae between.  One group could memorize anything and spit it out.  The other group intuitively piced together the basics to get to the end.  For example, one could memorize the equation Q = UHdTln and plug and go and try to take the log of a negative number when doing the dTln.  Others looked at the temperatures and said, temperature cross and stop.  Some could look at 10 minerals and spit out their names and the other group had to scratch, acid, look with 10x and find their way to the correct answer.

On the average, women were in the memorize group and not application group.  I enjoyed getting an A in fluids and the #2 guy in the class who memorized 100 minerals got a B (his only one). The number one was a women.  She went to summer school every year because she dropped classes if she was going to get a B.  She got no job offers and went on to grad school.  Went to work for a major oil company in R&D.  She was worthless in lab because she had to stop and reread and memorize the mechanics that were obvious to us all (we traded lab partners evey lab).

In sumarry, all the women were in the memorize group and the men were spread in both.

RE: Number of women in engineering

dcasto--so do you consider successful female engineers to be genetic freaks?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Number of women in engineering

Seems a bit cheeky to generalize from a small sample to the entire school and then to the entire universe.

TTFN

Eng-Tips Policies FAQ731-376


RE: Number of women in engineering

Isn't that what we as engineers do though?  (can't remember the exact quote but...)  Make simple assumptions based on specific circumstances and extrapolate them to allow us to build wonderful things.

dcasto was just trying to do the same with sociology.

smilesmilesmile

RE: Number of women in engineering

Since it only takes about 30 samples to produce a normal distribution curve.....

I didn't define success or failure on how you process data, either memorize or extrapolate from physics.

Would you say that an engineer that has memorized the complete ASME vessel code makes for a good vessel designer or one that knows how to work the book and get things done?  I report you decide.

However, I want my tax attorney to know every detail...  My doctor to know which medicines don't mix...

RE: Number of women in engineering

I have another idea: my mother's a mechanical engineer. During a test drive of her latest construction, one of ~30 electric engines wasn't "pulling". After a 17-hour shift, she was done with reason, so she simply tugged at the belt a bit.
The belt pulled her hand in, crushing her index finger, breaking the skin, and tearing the tendons of the thumb and first two finger bones... (she's fine now, tho).

The point is, engineering jobs often aren't just sitting in the cozy office, and a lot of women simply won't take up a lifetime of a career that can result in crushed fingers...

RE: Number of women in engineering

Some people learn everything the hard way.

I carry a pen or a pencil in a pocket, for sticking into pinch points and nips.  Writing is a secondary usage.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Number of women in engineering

And yet, Mechanical Animal, many women take up nursing.  Which, from what I can tell, gets your hands dirtier, involves heavier lifting and involves higher levels of personal danger than anything I've dealt with in my engineering career.  


RE: Number of women in engineering

Good point bk11, while I've got my hands dirty (and cut) in fairly dangerous conditions (with hindsight often unecessarily and foolishly so) in engineering I don't think I've ever risked stabbing myself with something that could give me an incurable and probably fatal disease.

I've known at least one woman in the medical field who's managed to prick themselves with a needle used on a HIV+ patient.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I wish there were a lot more women in Engineering...The ones' I have run it to were very good. Highly organized. I always have great respect for a female engineer knowing they juggle mother role and engineer role.

RE: Number of women in engineering

my current firm has a young woman engineer from one of the local schools (recent grad, 2 years).  i think she's content with some of the little jobs (smaller design and less responsibility) and she's being brought along very slowly in relation to some of the other young engineers (like myself) who are getting a ton of responsibility at a very young age.  

i tried to get her to be more ambitious as far as her role in the company, becuase constantly doing the small garbage time engineering isn't going to adequately prepare her for the PE whenever she's able to take it.  hell, her supervisor wouldn't even let me give her some of my work with slab designs and working with building models.  i know she can do it, but i don't know if that's where her motivation lies.

*shrugs*

RE: Number of women in engineering

Dont know if someone mentioned it, but here in the US, alot of women are going to become doctors. I think the ratios are shifting to where there are more female doctors than males.

This is probably one factor in the number of women becoming engineers. A certain number of them that would probably consider engineering are going into medicine instead.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I'm with the boys-and-their-toys theory here.  In any engineering class or lecture hall at 'SC I could count the number of girls on one hand.

The best-looking one by a longshot was a sorority queen.  I once waited nearly an hour for a help session with my 60-year-old EE prof'; after knocking repeatedly, she emerged from behind the closed door, and the look of ire on the guy's face for me having "interrupted" them was priceless.

Anyway, of the female handful, most were in ROTC.  Although I worked one summer under a female postdoc in aero, I think their parental environment, college funding, and the "want-to-fly" factor all play major sub-roles.  In the end, few want engineering for the nuts-and-bolts aspect.  At Point Mugu, again, I ran into very few female engineers, and all who'd been there any amount of time were up the management chain.  One in particular was extremely adept at it; she took a lot of crap for having come in as an outsider, but she could both multiplex, lead, and handle herself with any of the big boys: 'saved our program, and probably now works in DC.

The point made about how poorly our education shows us who does what in the real world is also valid; but that can be a whole other topic.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I am also a young woman in the world of engineering. I often get strange and surprised reactions from people when they find out that I am in civil engineering and wanting to major in (male dominated) structural engineering.

As a woman in engineering, I often get underestimated in my capability, but I have always succeeded in gaining respect from everybody. Most of my female friends are also in engineering, and not every one of them is as ambitious as the other, but that has nothing to do with their incapability as a woman. It just depends on what is on top of your priorities list.

In my opinion, young girls are not stimulated enough to choose a engineering profession, and it definately has nothing to do with what kind of toys a child plays in its childhood. As a child, I was crazy about dolls, and I have always been very girly and womanly-like.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I really can't buy into the biology is destiny-  The men in my family are way too good with kids from a very young age!

As the mother of a young daughter, I know one of the issues I've come up against is the lack of schedule flexibility in an engineering job- Before I had my daughter I worked for a company where not working 40 hours a week and having interests outside work got in the way of advancement.  All the managers were men with wives who stayed home with their children-  Even with the equitable split of childcare my husband and I have, I never would have been able to compete on a level playing field at that company.

Post-baby I worked 2nd shift and can say it's a lot easier to negotiate a flexed schedule on the way into a new company than to ask for a change later on.

One factor that I think pushes some women away from traditional engineering fields into biotech and healthcare fields where you derive your job satisfaction- and I think for many women (I can hardly say it's universal) knowing that what they do will help someone is a huge part of their job satisfaction.  

As for why I ended up in engineering-  I fell in love with organic chemistry in my (all-girls) highschool and was more interested in making things, rather than working in a lab.  I like that I work on real stuff.  

RE: Number of women in engineering

Quote:

One factor that I think pushes some women away from traditional engineering fields into biotech and healthcare fields where you derive your job satisfaction- and I think for many women (I can hardly say it's universal) knowing that what they do will help someone is a huge part of their job satisfaction.

It's not just women.  I and several male colleagues used to work in defense where it felt like (at least on a good day) we were working on something that mattered (unless you have ethical objections).  We now work on metrology equipment, mostly for Semi Conductor, where it's all just about making money for the share holders...  It's just doesn't give the same motivation.

RE: Number of women in engineering

(OP)
This is a really interesting string- had no idea when I started it, the momentum would keep barrelling along!
It's obvious that work hours flexibility and child care are concerns are ones affecting women in engineering, or any demanding professon. What was said above about helping people (being appealing to women) seems true to me-we just have to expand the understanding of helping people past the regular female roles such as nurse/teacher/social services worker- isn't helping people  the basis of most invention and engineering? Designing an energy-efficent building heating system or a better bridge, or even developing a line of sun protection products-those endeavours are all about helping others!

I do think that the "elbow grease and wrenches" perception or misconception re engineering may hold some women back from going into the field, just as it does with skilled trades. On the other hand, it is encouraging to look at the military which has good percentages of females now, as opposed to a couple of decades ago.  

RE: Number of women in engineering

That's a bit of semantical splitting.  The traditional roles for women are more technically classified as caregivers and nurturers.  An energy-efficient building is not considered to be nurturing, per se.

One could easily argue that hunters "help" others by getting food for them.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies


RE: Number of women in engineering

"An energy-efficient building is not considered to be nurturing, per se."

Neither is environmental engineering, and yet that's the direction a large portion of female civil engineering undergrads seem to head and in my gut it seems to make a certain amount of stereotypical sense.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Number of women in engineering

Another factor is forming relationships.  I think even in a highly team driven environment it's often based on competition not consensus building, another typically female trait.  

RE: Number of women in engineering

Over 30 years ago, women engineers were very rare.  I would have expected the percentage to exceed 25% these days.  I would expect better initial offers for women than men too.

I would also expect women engineers to be more quickly promoted out of the actual details of engineering than men in many fields.

Expectations aside, I also find a much smaller percentage of engineers among women who are willing to provide construction site support than among men.  I share this observation because field experience is very valuable.  In my business, field experience is necessary to truly understand what we are trying to do as engineers.  A woman engineer with strong job site experience is very valuable in the market place.

RE: Number of women in engineering

I think men like to get dirty more than women.  That's why there are less women in engineering.  When it comes to engineering management, I think if you really run the numbers...more % of women get promoted...and faster, but probably for less money.



RE: Number of women in engineering

I think many of you are missing the bigger influences: society and culture.  At a young age kids can easily see the various roles society and culture dictates to the sexes.  Pick up a magazine, watch TV or a movie - Women are almost exclusively shown working in generic offices, being doctors or lawyers, and wearing cute outfits (Sex in the City, ER, Grey's Anatomy).  Men are also shown in offices and working as doctors and lawyer.  But they are also shown in manufacturing, construction, etc.  I can't even name a movie or TV show that I remember a women being shown in a technical field outside of being a hacker or computer programmer.  When one of the women’s magazines does its annual list of average salaries, they usually list only one technical profession (IT or chemist).  I write every year to complain.  

What kids don’t see, is the guy that stays home to take care of the kids while the wife (a chemical engineer with PhD) goes to work.  They don’t see a woman as a plant manager or head of engineering.  Hell even in my college 99% of my engineering professors were men – a handful of which complained when the school went co-ed in 1995!  All the women professors were in the chemistry and humanities department.  

Other problem I see even with my friends that went into engineering, they are uncomfortable with taking the lead or being a tough manager when it is needed.  While taking about my latest project problems, a friend asked how I dealt with confrontation because she wouldn’t be able to handle it.  It is okay for little boys to be bossy, but it’s discouraged in little girls.  Good thing my Dad (also an engineer) taught me that sometimes you have to be tough to get the job done.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Referring to the OP, and the barriers to women working in engineering.

Schools are more than happy to accept women, and engineering students are happy to have women in their classes (I went to an engineering school, not a big univ.- we really wished there were more women engineering students.)

I think a lot of old guys (the ones that do the hiring) are still stuck in the past and have discriminatory practices.  That might only be in the middle of nowhere, USA- but that's what I have seen.

RE: Number of women in engineering

Witasz,
You discuss what kids see on TV. I don't see any engineers on TV. . .when you do see male engineers on TV, They're usually portrayed negatively: either Dilbert-esque or hate engineering, like in Office Space. I am just fine with not seeing women engineers on sit-coms if they would also be portrayed in this negative manner. As for a sexy drama about an engineering office, if they had one, I'm sure the women engineers would end up sleeping with the boss, and I don't want to see that either!

On the plus side, I do see some positive role models for future-engineer girls on cable shows. Trading Spaces had a female carpenter. Myth Busters has a woman. That John Force show showcases his race car driving daughters - although I'd say the girls are definitely trying to appeal to the male audience. Flip That House has female "flippers." These might not be engineers per se, but maybe seeing a woman doing non-traditional, technical activities could lead girls to the engineering path. Women also take on technical roles in crime dramas. And Bob the Builder has his sidekick Wendy. There are some decent societal influences if we look.

RE: Number of women in engineering

For some reason my post just above is missing the first 4 paragraphs.  And only the last couple of sentences are shown.

I was basically stating that we should determine why there are so few female: truck drivers, electricians, pipe fitters, crane operators, construction laborers, instrument technicians, construction supervisors, masons, carpenters, roofers, etc.. etc... the list can go on and on.

Unless an engineer has only a desk job then he/she will most likely grow accustomed to working along with these folks above and being called an S.O.B by some sweaty, smelly, and dirty construction supervisor.  

My point is that most women I know prefer to avoid such situations.    

RE: Number of women in engineering

Witasz's comment on confrontation and being tough brings up a quote my wife said when she ran a 2-Doctor orthodontist office - for a woman in a managerial role, "the line between b***h and pushover is very thin.  For men, the gap between a**hole and wimp is much larger."  I had never thought of that until my wife said it and I think she's right.  It is much tougher for a female to be an effective manager because of that thin line she must walk.



If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

RE: Number of women in engineering

That's unfortunately true for women in managerial positions.  But, I don't think that it's any line that "THEY" walk; they are what they are, and it's simply conditioned perceptions of the men.  

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies


RE: Number of women in engineering

If anyone thinks that women become nurses to avoid smelly people, then they've got a serious brain fart.  

ER and other nurses routinely deal with "patients" who haven't seen a bathtub in YEARS.  My wife, doing her ER rotation says that she's never even remotely experienced anything so wretched smelling as the typical homeless person.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies


RE: Number of women in engineering

My wife has worked in Doctors offices and as a social worker.  In both fields she has dealt with more dirty, smelly uncooth people than I ever have.

That said the main offenders were clients not colleagues.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources