How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
(OP)
The rules for the Automotive X Prize (http://auto.xprize.org/) will be posted soon.
They think it will take less than 18 month to finance, design, provide a detailed production cost analysis, build and test a 100 mpg 4 passenger car that meets all the safety and emission standards world wide.
How do you think this can be done?
They think it will take less than 18 month to finance, design, provide a detailed production cost analysis, build and test a 100 mpg 4 passenger car that meets all the safety and emission standards world wide.
How do you think this can be done?





RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Reidh
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
In order to meet crash regs you'll need at least three, and up to 50, prototypes.
Tooling for many parts is >6 months.
100 mpg is a nice round number, that's 2.5 litres per 100km, roughly. So if I were to take the best technology around, that gets ~ 70 mpg for a 4 seater... and doesn't meet US crash. If you were lucky you could add 150 kg to meet US crash (which will hit fc) , and then hybridise it, for a 50% improvement in fuel consumption.
Having said that if anybody wants a cynical mechanical engineer to work on concepts, timelines, and analysis, you know where to find me.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
This will be a race for the ages, with major publicity and a big sack of cash waiting for the champion, and perhaps our future hanging in the balance."
Funny.. I thought the market was doing that already.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
They ask for production costs. Do they have a maximum cost target, as obviously complex design and exotic materials can help.
Are there any performance criteria like acceleration, parking ease, external vision in all directions, cabin temperature, top speed, hill climbing, road holding, ride comfort, cabin space, luggage capacity etc etc etc.
I would think the best design concept would be a long narrow car with the passengers sitting in line slightly skewed so the foot wells extend to beside the seat in front. Head room would be very tight. Large passengers would not fit, the roof would probably be a solar cell.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Have to go skiing so I will check in later.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
This sounds like typical liberal academic fantasy.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
My guess its a hydrogen fuel-celled electric golf cart sized entry with solid tires, little suspension, and 0 to 60 mph time in the 2 dozen range.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
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Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
The one lacking requirement in the rules is the required production cost.
My interest is the mainstream class vehicle. It seems you need to improve existing car fuel mileage by 3 times, yet maintain the acceleration performance and have a high top speed. The acceleration and top speed will make for design difficulties.
1. Can enough weight and aerodynamic resistance savings make this possible at the required sale price?
2. How many man hours should it take to design the body, frame and suspension?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
2) To what standard? Why not just buy an Audi A2 and fit your powertrain to it?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Page 10 of the draft rules is about safety and it does specify UNECE or US FMVSS compliance.
I have ask APX for clarification of the target manufacture cost, if there will be extensions if no one qualifies in 2008 and have signed up for the Letter of Intent to find out more and see if there really is people to invest in doing this type of project.
1. In 10,000 per year manufacturing quantities what are some of the more cost effective methods to build the frame and body?
2. Would it be faster and or less expensive to subcontract out the crash analysis, and body CFD?
Estimating what it is going to cost and how long it will take to get to race day seems very difficult.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Production seems impossible to do without body in white technology, from what little I know it would take stampings and robotic welds to accomplish 38 cars a day or is my calculation way off...
Cheers
I don't know anything but the people that do.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
I worked in Ford's axle plant in the sixties. Our normal production rate was 10,000 carsets a day, or 2 million a year. That was for all car and light truck lines combined, so figure 1/10 of that, or 1000 cars a day, or 200,000 cars a year, for a successful line.
Further corroboration: GM killed the fourth generation Camaro/Firebird for low sales, and they sold an average of almost 80,000 cars a year for model years 1996..2001.
By way of illumination, Corvette sales for the same period averaged 27,427 cars/year. We know the Corvette survives partly as a flagship and partly because of a lot of internal and external zealots.
Let's look at a lower production car; the Porsche Boxster, of which just over 200,000 have been built in 14 years, for an average of 14,285/year.
Are there enough green zealots who will _say_ they'll buy 10,000 tiny, slow cars a year? Probably. Will they pay somewhere upward of $50,000 for it? Probably not. Could anyone build it to sell for less than that? Not if they have to buy any tooling.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Which of course is what Greg said, in far fewer words.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
6'1.3" not a bad guess!
Looking through the rules I've got to say it is a beauty contest. Many aspects of the design are judged by what is appropriate, or whatever, by a panel.
They won't release the route over which the fuel consumption/speed is to be measured. This is to prevent 'gaming', or as engineers call it, optimisation.
The crash requirement is going to be very expensive.
and as I've pointed out, the timing is ridiculous.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Available elsewhere in the world, but not in the US, are nice, 2 seaters cars that reach more than double the CAFE of ours (the Ford KA for example) and meet all Euro standards for crash and emissions. Hmmm. It seems that some tweaking of that package would almost meet the X-Auto platform (hybridize most likely).
The claims that they are not available here in the US due to lack of customer acceptance (too small, too slow, dangerous, hogwash!) and other yackety yack stuff.
While in Europe recently, I had an opportunity to drive a nice 2 seater that altough was tight for my 6 foot 3 inch frame, was workable. That car brought me well over 40 mpg at a performance level I could live with. I see them in Mexico frequently but not in Canada.
Sign me as frustrated by the selection of world cars not available here in the US.
Franz
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RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Of course in my field we have parts per day not parts per second..
The 100 MPG will eliminate the use of ethanol
Cheers
I don't know anything but the people that do.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
The rules limit your selection of fuels:
"At this point, we expect to provide gasoline, diesel, electricity, natural gas, bio-diesel, and E85; the final list will be determined after initial applications are reviewed (additional fuels will require a clear business case that a vehicle using a non-mainstream fuel can succeed in the marketplace within a few years)."
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
The contest is for 100 MPGequivalent, meaning that the thermal values of the fuels are taken into account relative to gasoline and there are corrected (and different) MPG values for fuels other than gasoline.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
http:/
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
This 'One Litre Car' nomenclature means 100 km (62 miles) on one litre of fuel (about 288 mile/imperial gallon or 244 mile/US gallon).
Just-Auto.com had an item on this last week. VW's Dr Ferdinand Piech provided the following press release:
Bill
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
FINALLY! A poster who understands the economics of the automotive business. Way to go FoMoCoMoFo.
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
Blame your government - specifically, NHTSA - for the unavailability of micro-cars in the U.S.
Mike:
10,000 units per year is not at all too small for hand-building. We build up to 40,000 trucks a year by hand, most to individual specific customer order.
But as to designing a car to get the "X-Prize:" First you get all the drugs you can find...
RE: How would you build a car to compete for the X Prize?
You will have a production line, it may be a push-along one.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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