The problem with references
The problem with references
(OP)
The lawyers and HR people tell us to never give a bad employment reference. Is it because of some great moral compass these people possess? No, they're just afraid of getting sued.
OK, I get that nobody wants to get sued, but as engineers charged with protecting the public, should we really be passing poor performers from one company to the next because no one wants to risk a law suit? I'm not talking about people that show up late occasionally or don't hand in reports on time. I mean people that just don't have what it takes to be an engineer.
When we finally free ourselves of the offender and get a call from a potential employer asking if we would hire him or her again, we say, "Certainly." All the while thinking, "Yes as a janitor, but never as an engineer." So we've played our word game and haven't told a lie and feel good that we're so clever.
We wheel back over to the computer and continue pontificating on Eng-Tips how important it is as an engineer to have unimpeachable ethics.
OK, I get that nobody wants to get sued, but as engineers charged with protecting the public, should we really be passing poor performers from one company to the next because no one wants to risk a law suit? I'm not talking about people that show up late occasionally or don't hand in reports on time. I mean people that just don't have what it takes to be an engineer.
When we finally free ourselves of the offender and get a call from a potential employer asking if we would hire him or her again, we say, "Certainly." All the while thinking, "Yes as a janitor, but never as an engineer." So we've played our word game and haven't told a lie and feel good that we're so clever.
We wheel back over to the computer and continue pontificating on Eng-Tips how important it is as an engineer to have unimpeachable ethics.





RE: The problem with references
RE: The problem with references
Last year, the AVP above me and I interviewed a guy with a resume to drool over. We all but made him an offer on the spot. But he was in a big hurry to "leave" one of our competitors. The AVP called him, careful not to break confidentiality, of course, just casual conversation. Our competitor told him the guy was fired that week, for his 2nd DUI.
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
RE: The problem with references
Bottom line is that regardless of instructions from HR or management, the only way to balance your ethics with minimizing risk is to either answer truthfully or refuse to answer. If I was hiring and all the references refused to answer my questions then I'd be pretty sure that no one had anything good to say.
David
RE: The problem with references
Exactly. Our company "forbids" us to say anything other than the dates of employment and position the person had. In reality, there are ways to say those things that gets the message across clearly. No question, if the guy was a good player, I'd straight-out say so, policy be damned. I have had a few that were so bad I felt the ethical issues outweighed any risk of reprisal, and after carefully stating that this was my personal opinion, off the record, yadda yadda yadda, I let loose on the guy. (and one of them got hired in spite of that!)
RE: The problem with references
Or maybe not...
Honesty is the best policy and, in my opinion, one is a fool to not ask first before using someone for a reference. If you rprevious boss says "no" or "I'm giogn to make sure you never work in this field again" it's a good idea to probably not list that person as a reference.
RE: The problem with references
That's all your required to say by law. Just say that and nothing more. Most people will fgure it out.
RE: The problem with references
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: The problem with references
Some recruiters and HR people try to find and call the people whom you'd prefer that they didn't call, and don't list. I guess the theory is that they'll get unvarnished truth. What they get is unvarnished, but it ain't truth, either.
I have no problem with "straight up". I've had major disagreements with some of my listed references, and I've told them to be truthful about that. I just have a problem with the lying weasels. (Apologies to actual weasels.)
Maybe if I put my references on a 'do not call' list, they'd get called...
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The problem with references
No, he says, he may not have worked out for us, but who knows, someone else might use him differently, may be more as a field engineer instead of a designer, or just do what he is told. Just because he did not work out for us does not mean he will not work out for someone else, although doubtful but let's remain hopeful.
I think the man was very wise. So, unless someone has done harm to you, I don't see any reason for giving out bad references.
Come to think of it, it may even be a good thing if he is going to the competition.
RE: The problem with references
One place in recent memory was a faster, cheaper, better kind of place. I'm a better, cheaper, faster kind of guy. The boss called me "a damn perfectionist" because I wouldn't take his standard drawing details, scale them to sort of fit each other, override the dimensions, and paste them into a drawing that our customer would probably misinterpret as an accurate representation of what we proposed to build and install. I tried it, really I did, but for me it was faster and less error- prone to draw accurately and just dimension what was there.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The problem with references
I support all the above. What I don't support is pretending like those who still do things like we did 5 years ago are still relevant. They/you are not, you know it, I know it, so can we please get back to Laissee-faire (sp?) free marketing?
Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve
RE: The problem with references
I remember hearing of the guy that got hired BECAUSE Company A fired him- any guy they fired had to be good! And there can be some truth in that. If a lying-weasel company fires a guy, that's liable to be a point in his favor for those really familiar with the company.
RE: The problem with references
"He refused to rubber stamp projects"
"He hated to produce profitable low quality work"
"He objected to ripping off the customers"
"He cost me money because he insisted on having safety gear"
"Etc"
Sometimes its the employer who doesn't deserve to be in the engineering field rather than the employee. Some folks flounder in some work environments and thrive in others. If someone feels that someone else is a danger to society, then they should report it to the appropiate authorities (The state board). Reporting it to other prospective employers smacks of a personal attack. I also recall reading in the state rules & regulations that engineers shall not make statements that reflect badly upon the reputation of fellow engineers.
RE: The problem with references
Frankly, I would not want some of my previous employers to be used for a reference - for the very reasons I don't work for them anymore. That's why they are past employers and part of my employment history. I left and moved on for reasons.
Some past workplaces were highly dysfunctional. Some past managers were very vindictive. One manager bragged how the conference room was bugged so he could listen in on clients discussions when meetings were recessed. One past small company owner ended up in the Federal Penn.
The last thing I would want is for some of these people to be contacted. I prefer to let the projects completed, patents acquired, and papers published speak for themselves.
Past employers should never do more than verify that a person worked there and the dates of employment - period! Fortunately, for me these particular places are in the far past now.
RE: The problem with references
corus
RE: The problem with references
The company I worked for almost disappeared last year - they fired all engineering division. A guy from my department (I left before that) apply for a position in local branch of reputable West European company. They simply called me and asked about my opinion. I told them the true: The guy is not bad, but he lacks of initiative. He could be good for routine office work, but please don't expect from him a leadership. These are the reasons why I didn't invite him in my company - we alternate design with field works, where the person must be able to take responsibility. They consider that for their needs he will be suitable and employed him. He works now for them almost six months and I think the both sides are happy.
Therefore I am agree that not everybody is suitable for each position - but it is possible that in other segment he would show himself from the better side.
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: The problem with references
Simply confirm dates of employment and refuse to provide any other comments.
What you should do is not blind-side the employee. Be frank with him/her and state you don't want to be a reference, and that your name should not be provided.
RE: The problem with references
We also run a background check-those DUIs or credit problems show up there.
RE: The problem with references
RE: The problem with references
It takes a lot to buck "Legal" on a suspicion. If you're wrong, you're open to a lawsuit yourself. And even that only comes up if you, the person with the concern, are the one who is contacted. If it's just HR that's contacted, they won't even have information to withhold.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: The problem with references
The date reference is pretty awful. My wife has worked for some large companies and provided excellent service with great reviews, but that "she worked here from a to b" can really harm you. Especially because policy only allows some HR person stationed in a different city to communicate.
RE: The problem with references
Oh well, if nothing else, take this as a cautionary tale. The example I gave about the guy saying he would hire so and so again wasn't entirely fictional. The thought process was but the bottom line was this was somebody you definately would not want working for you as an engineer. (You're just going to have to trust me on this.)
The lesson? If you're still convinced references are worth while, I wouldn't ask "Would you hire this person again?" Maybe instead ask, "What were his stengths?" Try to pin the reference down on why the person is worthwhile. His lawyer will probably be shaking his head vigourously saying, "Just give them start and end date." But you can say you tried.
RE: The problem with references
It really depends on the industry. In my profession you don't hand someone a million dollar yacht and say 'see you in Bermuda next month' without checking references and everything else you can get your hands on. I am sure there are other industries like this.
People call me all the time regarding crew they wish to hire that have given me as a reference. I always call references when I hire.
My wife (not in the engineering ind.) recently took a job from a company she had used as a reference for another job interview. The company found out she was in the market when the interviewer called them looking for a reference!