CAD and engineering fee split
CAD and engineering fee split
(OP)
Hey Everyone,
I use CAD sub-contractors when I need major CAD work done. On lump sum projects what percentage is for engineering and what is for CAD?
- Thanks
I use CAD sub-contractors when I need major CAD work done. On lump sum projects what percentage is for engineering and what is for CAD?
- Thanks
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC






RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Dik
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
A big grey area when engineering and CAD are separate business entities is liability. First the engineer has to pay for liability insurance, licensing fee and cost of professional development (loss in productive time plus cost of seminars). In regular firms combining engineering and CAD that cost is absorbed by fees for engineering and CAD. Second, who pays what percentage in case of a required repair because of a dimensional problem? Problems due to engineering design mistake are clearly up for the engineer to deal with. The majority of construction problems though are dimensional - what is the responsibility of the CAD technician?
Both of these issues need to be reflected within the fee split.
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Dik
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Another way of estimating is to assume 8 hours per sheet for a structural set of drawings. This would apply to an "average" building--nothing unusual or complex.
DaveAtkins
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
When dealing with drafting subcontractors, instead of cutting your pie first, show them the job scope and let them give you a fee proposal first. Then you can decide whether you want to pay that from your own fee.
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
It seems that you are not dealing with a subcontracting firm but an individual. You can agree on an hourly rate not to exceed the maximum you are willing to bear.
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Some cons of doing your own cad: You are not able to bill at an engineering rate all the time. Most cad techs bill out at less than half the rate of even a modestly experienced graduate engineer. Workdays can get pretty long if a bigger project is going out and/or there are last minute changes. Eyestrain can become an issue if one wears both an engineering and cad hat and works too long and too hard. Sometimes cad work can also be aggravating or just boring for an engineering graduate. Not everyone has the interest or aptitude to do cad regularly.
The pros, as I have experienced them, are that the cad time spent on producing the drawings can be shorter because there are fewer cycles of mark-ups to get to a decent finished state. When the designer is also the drafter, completed drawings usually are clearer, particularly when working on something that is complex or unusual.
All that said I think the default standard in my industry , at least for larger offices, is for engineers to do little or no cad. There is such an emphasis on speed and quick production these days that it does make sense to have a dedicated tech staff to do the production work, as long as you have enough work to keep that staff busy and the cashflow to pay them properly. For a smaller firm I think its less clear what is most economical. However there is no doubt that a knowledgable, able cad person is extremely valuable, no matter what size firm.
It is probably a good idea for all engineers to know at least some cad. When I started out thats all I did for the first six months. I learned how to set up and layout drawings and details by executing the penciled sketches of older engineers.
In the future, cad skills for an engineer may become more important because with the advent of BIM and other advances, the transition from structural modeling and design into finished drawings is probably going to become more direct. We will still need to know how to create a finished presentable set of documents, even if the machine does all the heavy lifting. At this point though, I have a hard time designing on the screen and also drafting at the same time. Can't say quite why. Maybe because I spent so many years looking at big pieces of paper rather than a little VDT screen. Tho say- if I could just hook up one of this HD teevee screens, you know, the ones the size of a bed, to my computer.....
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
sketching it up
giving it to and explaining it to a tech
the tech drawing it
the engineer checking it and correcting it
the tech fixing it
the engineer checking it again
etc. until it's "right"
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
From my previous employment I know that most building structural projects had a split of 65% engineering and 35% CAD by taking the hours it took multiplied by hourly rates of $90 for engineering and $65 for CAD. There are several problems by taking these numbers for gospel:
- For one the liability is entirely on the engineer when the there is separate engineering and CAD entities, while in a joint firm it is carried by both in form of the cost of liability insurance, and lost profit if the firm has to pay for problems in form of paying for repairs and time spent to come to an agreement.
- For another point I am convinced the engineer has more overhead cost. Both entities have cost in form of computer, plotter and CAD program, which are in my mind minor as that cost spreads over several years use. The engineer has regular cost that add up: liability insurance, annual licensing fees (in my case three states), membership fee for engineering associations (in my case five associations), the professional development requirement (which is a cost for attending seminars plus the cost of lost billable hours), the cost of codes and reference materials, and the cost of engineering soft wares.
- Finally, one of the constant problems this particular CAD Tech had in the previous office was he did not have enough work so admittedly had to stretch his hours.
It's not easy! I have a hard time believing that five years of school plus four years of internship plus the liability plus the larger overhead would be reflected in either the $90 / $65 hourly rate or a 65% / 35% fee split.
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
cvg: In order to get a relative idea what the $80 represents for experienced CAD personel: What would you expect a licensed principal with 12 years experience would bill out for?
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
RE: CAD and engineering fee split
Eric McDonald, PE
McDonald Structural Engineering, PLLC
RE: CAD and engineering fee split