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Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK
4

Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

(OP)
Hi,

A petition has been set up on the 10 Downing Street website to protect the status of Engineer in the UK.  Today, car mechanics, plumbers and electricians are know known as “engineers” which is seriously eroding the status of our profession.

If you are a UK professional engineer, then please go to http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/ and sign the petition

Thanks
Dave Roseman

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

2
This is already the subject of thread731-180126

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK


Done that. A couple of weeks or so ago. I am also a member of the Engineering Integrity Society (UK) and I had an email via them as well, suggesting engineers should sign up.
It's a good cause and about time there was an official differentiation.

By the way - ever tried explaining to people like car insurance companies what you do for a living?

I was describing myself as 'an engineer' for several years until I found that I was being classified by my insurer as a motor mechanic and having my policy loaded as a result. They said I was in the motor trade' apparently.
I am in automotive design.

Now I describe myself as draftsman or designer, they seem to understand that one. I did try Chartered Engineer, but that 'did not compute' as they say.

"Computer says, No"

Bill

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Re car insurance companies...

I used to work in the NVH department of a consulting engineering firm.  I described myself as an "Acoustic consulant" whenever asked.  Computer said "yes".

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

What is a NVH department?

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Sorry, "Noise, Vibration and Harshness".  The artistic side of automotive engineering.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

I think people here have already provided the answer to gaining status for their profession, and that's to drop the word engineer completely from their job title.

What's needed are more management consultants to think up job titles, such as Human Resource instead of Personnel for example. Working in research I think I'd go for the title of Imagineer, but then I dream a lot too.

corus

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

I am going to guess that 'charter engineer' is something like Professional Engineer in the US.

Is this any different than a person practicing medicine without a degree? Some of us have probably known nurses who would have been good doctors if they had gone to med. school. Public safety demands that doctors graduate from med. school and pass a practical exam to be licensed. How is this any different than the argument over who is an engineer and who isn't? Engineers can and do affect public safety all the time; should there be minimum standards of competence or not? Maybe you can remember a person who was a great 'engineer' but without a degree; how many such people have you met like that? I would dare say that I've met a lot more good to great engineers who do have the degree than don't have the degree. I wouldn't discount the observations of anyone who seemed to have good engineering but doesn't a degree, but I surely wouldn't let that person sign off on any construction drawing (which is primarily what prof. engineers seem to do in the US).

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

prost,

I agree with your line of arguement. We need to have a definition of what it takes to use the title "Engineer". Then, if you want to use it, then you have to meet the requirements. If you are good enough, but don't go through the steps, then you don't get to use the title.

In the medical field, to be called a doctor, you need a degree in medicine, and admission into the college of physicians. If you don't, then you can't call yourself a doctor. Period. We probably all know of some "mid-wife" who delivers baby better and more natural and what have you than most wet behind the ear MD. Guess what? She is still not called a doctor, and the MD is.

It should be the same in engineering. Have a set of requirements. Enforce the use of the title. Period.

My 2 penneth worth.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

So the old comparison of doctors to engineers again, some thoughts.

In the UK from what I recall of my medic friends the progression went something like:  Graduate Medical School and you are a doctor.  You get to use the title doctor.

Enter the profession as a Junior House Officer (JHO), under fairly close supervision.

After (if I recall correctly) one year as a Junior House Officer you become a Senior House Officer (SHO) with gradually less supervision.  I believe there may be exams involved but can’t recall.

After the appropriate amount of time and exams, and having chosen a specialization you continue to become a registrar.

Eventually after enough experience and I believe more exams you get to become a Consultant.

I can’t remember where GPs fall in this, I don’t think most of them are the equivalent of consultants but I’m not sure.

All of the above categories are Doctors, they all get to use the title Doctor (except consultant surgeons who if I recall correctly go back to being Mr/Mrs etc).  

Are they all equal, no.  Obviously if you have a complex problem you’ll need a registrar or consultant.  For less serious/complex concerns an SHO or even JHO is probably adequate.  However, as I understand it, a JHO is every bit as much a doctor as a consultant, and equally entitled to use the title ‘Doctor’.

If you have a complex/special enough engineering problem then maybe you need a Chartered Engineer.  Obviously only those who have earned chartered status should be allowed to call them selves Chartered Engineers.  It may well even make sense to require a Chartered Engineer to approve certain things, such as plans for buildings above a certain size etc.

I used to thing that being CEng was kind of equivalent to reaching the post of consultant.  As such I used to think that having an Engineering degree and working in the field of Engineering entitled me to use the term Engineer.  Back in the UK I was also a member of the appropriate industry body, RAeS in my case, in the US there isn’t even the equivalent of Chartered in the Aerospace Sector.  Does this mean there aren’t actually any Aerospace Engineers in the US?

Then there’s also the issue that historically taking an engineering degree wasn’t the only (or even most common) way to become an "Engineer" (at least in UK), not so long ago many if not most engineers came up through some kind of apprenticeship.  I worked with many (the majority) engineers who were in this category back in the UK.  In fact early in my career I even got asked why I took the degree route and not the apprenticeship route.  Many of these people are quite capable of doing the same job as someone with a degree, for instance the chief stress Engineer at my last place in the UK, with similar level of education.  It’s not like comparing Nurses to Doctors.  Seems unreasonable to introduce a rule now, when he’s well in his fifties, that unless he becomes chartered he can no longer call himself an engineer.

As I’ve said before I agree that letting every Tom, Dick or Harry call themselves Engineers does down play the Profession.  However, I don’t think arbitrary rules like “only Chartered Engineers can be called Engineers” or “only those with Engineering Degrees can be called Engineers” are the answer.

Oh and Prost, the Chief Stress guy I mentioned was an approved signatory for "Certificates of Design", essentially air worthiness certificates which I would guess in the aerospace world is the equivalent of signing off on construction drawings.  I was a lot happier with him signing them than I would have been with about half the chartered guys I worked with.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Just for my information, what is/are the current requirement(s) to call oneself "Engineer" in the UK?

And, are these enforced?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

You have to be able to breathe.

I've never heard of any corpses being charged with falsely claiming to be an engineer.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Ashereng, unless things have changed since I moved to the states in 2003, there are no real requirements.

At my last place in the UK most of us were 'Engineers' whether we'd got degrees or gone the apprenticeship route.

I'm also not saying everyone with an Engineering apprenticeship is equivalent to someone with an Engineering degree, but from what I saw quite a few of them were, especially those whos apprenticeships had been back in the 60's & 70's.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

KENAT: in that case, the person signing off the airworthiness certs. is qualified through specialized training in instruction, right? Therefore this person is certified by a 'governing legal authority.' I dare say very few people calling themselves 'engineer' have such instruction nor have been certified by the governing legal authority for whatever industry they are working.

We have problems in the US with non PEs (professional engineers) signing off on construction documents, or calling themselves silly things like 'sanitary engineer' when they really just toss garbage cans in the truck (a noble and necessary profession to be sure, but doesn't require an 4 yr. degree to do well, does it?). What's to stop anyone from doing this? Nothing (at least in Missouri)! The professional registration board that annoints PEs has no way whatsoever of levying fines or prison sentences, so as far as I can tell, has no way of enforcing a 'cease and desist' order.

Because the gov't has no way to enforce the law regarding professional registration, the profession itself is greatly devalued, IMO. This of course allows MBAs that couldn't design a bolt to turn engineers into commodities like sheet metal, which allows them to ship your engineering job someplace else. Because you appear to be downplaying the doctor analogy, it seems to me you are arguing there should be no minimum standard whatsoever for anyone to call her/himself 'engineer.' Why waste time sending anyone to college to study engineering if there is no ticket of admission so to speak?

The reason there is no 'chartering' of aerospace engineers is almost all aeros work for someone else, so that you get the standard 'industrial exemption' being invoked. The law has a loophole big enough to fly A-380s through it.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

For too long now the term 'engineer' and indeed the status of engineers has been allowed to drop to a level where, in some cases, the term engineer is used in the same sentence and context as the phrase 'Mcjob'.

Toilet cleaners are called sanitary engineers, rubbish collectors are called waste disposal engineers.

The fact of the matter is that the world as we know it and all the things that make us comfortable have been designed and perfected by 'engineers'.

Doctors and nurses and consultants and surgeons are able to the do the great job that they do because of engineers. Heart by-pass operations and brain surgery would not be possible without several pieces of 'engineered' hardware.

Civilisation has been allowed to moved forward because of engineers. Diseases that killed hundreds of thousands of people have been halted by enginering inventions such as sewerage systems, some of which are still in use in London 100 years after they were built. Globalisation is possible, but only because it has been engineered.

Everything we all do all day has been engineered in some way. Nothing happens by accident.


Now, on the subject of the value of the term engineer when used with 'chartered' or 'professional', I'm in the middle I suppose.

I have seen post graduates in engineering management with absolutely no idea of what to do, I have also worked with several post graduates who are outstanding engineers.

I have worked with people with no qualifications to speak of but can design and build fantastic 'things'.

Good engineers are born, they cannot be made.

It is not fair that good engineers are downgraded because they were not allowed access to higher education. As it is not fair that engineers who have invested 6-8 years of their life in obtaining a particular status are classed along side people who mop floors for a living.

I dont have a degree, but I have been given the chance to get one and I am going to go for it. It won't make me a better engineer but it will make give me a sense of acomplishment. Acomplishment is what I seek most in engineering.

Adrian

    
     

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

What engineers aren't allowed access to higher education?  Is it difficult to get a degree? Of course! Should it be? I would say 'yes', it does not serve the public interest for an engineering certification of some sort (B.S.E., P.E. etc.) to become so easy so that anyone can get one. Some people just aren't suited for engineering, and though I don't agree that good engineers are born and cannot be made, I still think not everyone should become an engineer, and that there has to be some sort of screening process.

In  the theatre, you say 'break a leg' to wish a performer luck. What about wishing you luck in your engineering studies? "May the exam questions be just what you studied the night before; may your calculator never run out of battery juice, and may your diploma be well earned!" Good luck and godspeed in your engineering studies!

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Quote:

KENAT: in that case, the person signing off the airworthiness certs. is qualified through specialized training in instruction, right?

Not exactly, I think it was based on experience.  He essentialy had a letter from the government saying he was an approved signatory.  I think there was meant to be a central list somewhere with the government but with the massive reorganizations in Defence during the 90's the system started to fail.

Historically some people in the UK were effectively "not allowed access to higher education" this was for a number of reasons including but not limited to:

Education System (11 plus/grammer v secondary modern schools)
Financial
Class System

While a lot of the people affected are probably nearing retirement, if not already retired/pushing up daises, many are still around in industry.

As for the 'Aerospace Engineers not being real Engineers' isn't that the point, they don't need to be PE so there isn't even a PE category.  However if you introduce a rule saying "you have to be a PE to use the title Engineer" you're then saying Aerospace Engineers aren't Engineers.  In the UK there is the equivalent of PE for aerospace Engineers although it's not mandatory as far as I'm aware.

Quote:

Because you appear to be downplaying the doctor analogy, it seems to me you are arguing there should be no minimum standard whatsoever for anyone to call her/himself 'engineer.' Why waste time sending anyone to college to study engineering if there is no ticket of admission so to speak

Umm, did you miss my penultimate paragraph of my 3/20 post, or perhaps the penultimate paragraph of my second 3/14 post?

I agree whole heartedly with the principle that there should be some minimum standard to use the title ‘Engineer’, I just disagree with the standards that have been proposed.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

I'll have to correct you on your comment about access to higher education KENAT. As I came from a working class background, brought up in social/council housing, there was no bar for me going to higher education in the early 70s. In fact all my brothers went to University. Maybe you're talking about pre-war, I don't know.

corus

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

I think KENAT has a point about the old 11-plus issue.  I never took it (went to a comprehensive), but if you failed that one exam you were basically consigned to the educational scrapheap.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Corus, I may be talking about pre Gulf war but not that far backsmile.

Maybe I'm overestimating the impact based on the views of the likes of my father (not yet retired) and some of the older guys I've worked with.

Perhaps "not allowed" is too strong but from what I understand it was difficult for some and there just wasn't the expectation for many people that they'd go to university.  

For instance my sisters are less than 10 years older than me, they didn’t' do quite as well academically at school but none the less there was no expectation they'd even go the VI forme, (last 2 years of high school for those not familiar with the education system where I grew up) let alone onto university. If I recall correctly for their graduating class going onto further/higher education was the exception not the norm.

By the time I graduated from the same school this expectation was reversed, if you didn't go on to further/higher education you were the anomaly.

Maybe these instances are the anomaly, or maybe you’re the anomaly I don’t know.

I do know that even by the time I went to University, amongst the students I knew I was one of the only ones from a relatively low income, working class background.  Most were from middle or even upper class backgrounds, may just have been the university I went to or the people I spent time with but it was my experience.


RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Scary thought, someone signing off on airworthiness certs just because they've been around awhile. In the US, you at least have to pass some tests and go to some seminars (mostly to teach you how to fill out the forms) before you can sign off on airworthiness certs. They don't even consider you a 'candidate' unless you have some experience (though I doubt there are any standards for what constitutes 'experience').

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

These were military C of Ds for airborne weapons, bit different from civilian or even aircraft certs.

Like I said I only think it was mainly based on experience, I can't remember the details, if I ever knew them.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Hydromech,

what is a tragedy is that people are not allowed access to a higher education, not the fact that the higher education is required to be a professional engineer.

I was surprised by your comment until I read that you do not have a qualification. Until you know all the science and theory behind what you do then you can only know 'how' to do things not 'why' you do things.

It is the 'why's that are the most important in engineering because every rule of practice has situations where it is not correct, and it is these exceptions to the rule that are the most common cause of engineering failures.

To put it in structural engineering terms:

1.Any fool can design a house if it is a standard shape and the details can be copied from the one next door.

2.It is when the house is of an unusual shape or configuration that you need an engineer to make sure it works.

3. Only a knowledgable structural engineer can tell whether a house comes under point 1 or point 2.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK


Back to the orginal posting. Online petitions just won't work. Any man and his dog can set one up - one of the Sunday Newspapers is reporting that a petition for the UK government to intervene in Zimbabwe has fewer votes than one requesting the prime minister to stand on his head whilst eating custard (possibly the most useful thing he coudl do IMHO )-  I can't find that one, but here are a few more that currently exist:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to wear a red nose.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make 'Being A Member of U2' an arrestable offence

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Resign his position as Prime Minister, within one month

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Ban people from singing the Patsy Cline song 'Crazy' at karaokes

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to relieve the boredom of womens tennis by forcing competitors to perform topless

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

This is an old, old issue- the Engineering Institutes have been trying to get the profession of engineering the same status as say, the Law or Medical profession, by making the title of Engineer a notifiable one, or by controlling who can can themsleves and 'Engineer' for ages. We had the Chartered thing (administered by a government quango, the Engineering Council), we had the European 'Euring' qualification and lately we've got the 'Engineering Technician' qualifiaction from the Engineering Council, to try and capture those with experience but without an accredited degree who don't want to jump through the (small number) of hoops to get Chartered status.

Sadly, it's a battle that has already been lost- maybe it's the British aversion to earning your money by making things, who knows.  I'll sign the petition, as I'm also tired of people thinking an engineer is a plumber or a mechanic, but I doubt if it will make much difference.

For what it's worth, I think making it so that a Chartered Engineer is the only person to be able to themselves Engineer wouldn't be so bad.  Going back to the medical comparison, there are 'Nurse Practitioners' who can do many of the things that Junior Doctors and GPs can do - prescribe drugs, for example, but they still aren't doctors.  A doctor is someone who has been admitted into one of the Medical Colleges- there's one for GPs, one for Surgeons and so on.  Admission is similar to admission to one of the Engineering Institutes: get an acredited medical degree, and then undertake an accredited and assessed training scheme, with competency assesed either by exams, interview or by review.  The movement through Junior House man, SHO, Registrar, Consultant is simply a grading structure for hospital doctors, like Engineer, Senior Engineer, Lead engineer and so on.  

For those Engineers who have an unusual background- coming up the apprentice route, or like me who don't have an Institution (I'm a Petroleum or a Drilling Engineer, depending upon who I'm talking to), there are alternative routes to membership of an Institution that aren't very onerous: do the Engineering Council exams, or build a body of experience and get assessed at an interview.

However, as I said above, it's far, far too late to get Engineering as a notifiable title, or to get the idea in the public mind that an Engineer is a professional, just like a Doctor, a Lawyer, an Accountant or a Surveyor.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Lots of people can call themselves doctors, namely PhDs.  But only medical doctors can call themselves MDs.  Engineering is similar.  Only those who have completed the education, experience and testing requirements can call themselves Professional Engineers or Chartered Engineers.  I kind of like the fact that the word "Engineer" is literally one who "engines".  If people who engine call themselves engineers, it is fine with me.  But anyone who call themself a PE, and is not, is committing fraud, and the law already covers this.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

You also see quite a lot of "PC Doctor" adverts these days as well as doctors for all manner of other appliances.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

DrillerNic, it's not just consultant that get to be doctors though, junior doctors are still doctors.  I likened CEng to consultant doctors.

When in the UK I was a member of the relevant institution  just hadn't quite reached CEng yet, and was working as 'an engineer'.  I thought I should be allowed to use the title engineer however the petition as signed would stop that.

Anyway if we can't even decide what an engineer is thread730-152809 how can we decide who is one?

I'm more with graybeach chain of thought.  

It would be nice to stop dustbin men being sanitary engineers or photocopier operators from being photcopier engineers etc though.  Not a lot of 'engineering' going on there.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

Good point SomtingGuy.  If someone call themself "PC Engineer" that would be just plain wrong though because it would imply that the person knows how to engineer one, not just clean up the hard drive.  Maybe calling a garbage collector a Sanitary Engineer is more of a joke anyway.  No one will mistakenly ask this person to design a sanitary sewer.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

I can call myself a professional engineer. I am a professional engineer. I can't call myself a PE in exactly one jurisdiction worldwide. The world is, as they say, a very big place.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Protect the status of "Engineer" in the UK

I would have thought a PC engineer is one who holds meetings and calls him or herself the 'chairperson'.

corus

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